McLaren has turned down an approach from Toro Rosso for their Formula 1 reserve driver Lando Norris.
Toro Rosso is believed to have requested Norris, who is currently leading the Formula Two championship, as a replacement for Brendon Hartley.A McLaren spokesperson told RaceFans: “We aren’t surprised other teams approach our drivers. They clearly believe they’re as talented as we do.”
Hartley was a surprise addition to Toro Rosso’s line-up when the team replaced both its drivers towards the end of last season. He had previously been part of Red Bull’s junior team but was dropped in 2010.
Norris, the reigning European Formula Three champion, has been part of McLaren’s young driver programme since 2016 and has impressed on his F1 test appearances for the team.
2018 F1 season
- McLaren staff told us we were “totally crazy” to take Honda engines in 2018 – Tost
- ‘It doesn’t matter if we start last’: How Red Bull’s junior team aided Honda’s leap forward
- Honda’s jet division helped F1 engineers solve power unit problem
- McLaren Racing losses rise after Honda split
- Ricciardo: Baku “s***show” was Red Bull’s fault
hahostolze (@hahostolze)
6th June 2018, 13:49
This is quite unusual, from Toro Rosso’s perspective. He’s very inexeperienced, he’s an astonishing talent but not even been that good in F2 so far, and he’s from a different team. Red Bull having a hard time getting good talent right now (maybe because young drivers are still tossed way too soon, and maybe because drivers are now weary of what happens if someone better like Verstappen comes along), but this is still a weird move. Find your own talent, or trust in Hartley, who really hasn’t been doing so badly
tonyyeb (@tonyyeb)
6th June 2018, 14:03
@hahostolze “not even been that good in F2 so far”? Debut season and he has… a win, a pole position in hist first race, on the podium 4 times and a worst result of 6th? Not to mention leading the championship by 27 points. Not only has he been that good in F2 so far, the table says he is doing the best.
hahostolze (@hahostolze)
6th June 2018, 14:07
Context is everything. People expected him to romp away with it a la Leclerc. He hasn’t. He’s been good, but plenty of other drivers have been as good and hampered by more bad luck (Albon, Russell, De Vries, one of who is also a rookie). Norris should be dominating this field to do justice to his reputation, and he’s not.
Schudha
6th June 2018, 14:14
Exactly, when Russel is on it he’s been stronger than Norris.
Norris had a few races last year to acclimatise compared to Russell being strong very quickly.
tonyyeb (@tonyyeb)
6th June 2018, 14:22
This is a very competitive F2 field. At the same point in the season, Leclerc had 2 wins, 3 podiums and 2 retirements = 87 points. Norris has 98.
nase
6th June 2018, 15:15
@tonyyeb
While I don’t necessarily agree with @hahostolze ‘s opinion, I can’t agree with the point you’re trying to make here, for two reasons:
A) These two retirements had a large impact, not only because they affected 25% of Leclerc’s races in the comparison, whereas Lando Norris hasn’t had a single reliability issue so far. Leclerc’s first DNF (Monaco feature race) was caused by a loose wheel, Leclerc having lead the race from pole up to that point. I don’t know what caused the retirement in the subsequent sprint race, but I guess it doesn’t really matter as that race was extremely unlikely to end in the points since Leclerc’s feature race DNF meant he had to start from the back of the grid.
B) Leclerc’s real score after the first four races (I wonder where you found the 87 points figure) was 122 points. With two DNFs more.
In other words:
Leclerc in 2017 (first four races): 30.5 points per weekend (over 40 if we factor out the DNFs), 4 poles, 3 fastest laps.
Norris in 2018: 24.5 points per weekend, 1 pole, 1 fastest lap.
The difference is massive.
tonyyeb (@tonyyeb)
6th June 2018, 15:20
Yeah I counted up to Monaco for both not realising there has been an extra race this year in the gap.
Brian (@bealzbob)
6th June 2018, 15:42
It’s not only his debut season. It’s his team’s debut season too. They only came up because of him, and now they both find themselves leading the series. I’m not sure what else he’s supposed to do really. He’s probably still finding his feet in all honesty, yet other more experienced and more established drivers and teams have so far been unable to catch him up.
Sviat
6th June 2018, 14:19
2 @tonyyeb
Are you another fanatic who doesn’t want to see and accept reality?
My mother told immediately that Norris is no good. I argued with her. I protected Norris each race.
But after I watched all F2 races this season, I understood that Albon and (especially) Russell are much better. Much better.
Russell is fast and thinks during the race. He also is excellent in traffic. Russell was able to win more than Norris, and Russell was unlucky not to get even more wins because others were making mistakes (Baku).
Norris, on the other hand, was close to winning only once. And he won only once. Norris in Monaco was absolutely terrible. Russell also made mistakes in Monaco, but he at least didn’t crash into anyone. And Norris has more experience than Russell.
Norris is also slow in traffic, he always wastes so much time behind the slower racers, whereas his main rivals in front go through traffic a lot faster.
PS: By the way, I have read multiple comments from people who watched Norris before he came to F2. And they say the same thing: Norris is no good.
Point is: you must analyse what really happens instead of thinking “Oh, Norris is the best because his opponents were less lucky!”
tonyyeb (@tonyyeb)
6th June 2018, 14:29
You are going by your personal opinion and observations of him. I’m just stating that the facts say he is currently the performing the best in F2. Well obviously some important people at McLaren rate him and now Helmut Marco it seems… He’s not been a bad judge of driver now has he?
Martin
6th June 2018, 15:41
The fact say he has the most points. That is the fact. It is a fallacy to say that that means it is a fact he is performing the best.
David Not Coulthard (@davidnotcoulthard)
6th June 2018, 16:20
@tonyyeb Some people (not me!) would refer to VES’ recent crashes along with KVY’s addition to the senior squad, plus VER’s (and BUE’s?) being skipped over.
tonyyeb (@tonyyeb)
6th June 2018, 16:22
@davidnotcoulthard Of course he won’t be able to pick winners every time, but in terms of VET, RIC, VES… even SAI, he’s not done too bad. Plus a fair few who have left RBR have done pretty well too. BUE winning Formula E against some decent opposition, and WEC success too.
David Not Coulthard (@davidnotcoulthard)
6th June 2018, 16:31
@tonyyeb I’d agree there apart from
Most of them would’ve maybe done a better job than HAR this year imho…which perhaps calls into question whether (in hindsight, of course) they should’ve been dropped.
But yeah by and large he’s done a better job at choosing drivers than Alonso has at choosing teams so far (1st stint at Enstone aside) in his career
Sviat
6th June 2018, 18:00
As usual, another fanatic ignores what was told to him. Observations are also based on facts.
Hugh (@hugh11)
6th June 2018, 19:37
Yeah, worst result of 6th in such a competitive field. Must be a shockingly bad driver.
I don’t think Russell and Albon are necessarily better. You talk about Norris’ mistakes in Monaco, where he crashed out Boschung trying to make a move. But Russell ended up in the barriers both races, Albon ruined his pole-win with a rookie error (in his 2nd season).
And you talk about Norris having more experience, but 2 races and 1 qualifying session in an entirely different car isn’t really much. In terms of racing experience, Russell is 1 and a half years older, did 2 seasons of F3 with 3 victories overall (in 63 races), Norris won 9/33. So, Russell is the more experienced driver, and Albon is even more experienced than that.
I don’t think anything that’s happened to Norris has been luck. He’s an extremely calculated driver, has finished every race in the top 6 even when he hasn’t had as good pace (and doing well in your poor weekends is incredibly important to winning a championship, he got 16 points in Baku where he was ‘poor’, and Russell got 0 in Monaco, for example) and he has really impressed me this year as he did in F3 last year.
I’m not sure why so many seem to think he’s not a good driver, he’s on course to winning both competitions in his debut season.
GongTong (@gongtong)
6th June 2018, 20:13
Personally I’ve been enjoying watching Sette Camara.
Just to throw an additional, unwelcome opinion into all this.
Shimks (@shimks)
7th June 2018, 6:22
Sviat, you have to be wrong – and do you know why? Because McLaren wouldn’t let him go to Toro Rosso. Because they want to keep him for themselves. And they have all that wealth of experience watching from the sidelines and investing in Norris. So, even if what you see with your own eyes tells you a different story, you have to be wrong. McLaren see a lot of potential in this young man.
Ju88sy (@)
7th June 2018, 15:52
@Syviat I think you are leaping to conclusions here, apart from Russell all of Norris’s main competitors so far this season (Albon, de Vyries, Sette Câmara, Markelov) have at least 1 if not more (Markelov has 4) full seasons and are 2-5 years older than he is.
Has he performed as well as LeClerc at similar stage: No
Is he performing very well overall considering the above: Undoubtedly.
Let’s see how the rest of the season unfolds.
The facts are, that despite your own (slightly vitriolic) opinion; Red Bull are interested and McLaren have rejected an advance (according to reports….), perhaps these teams may just know more about his performance and potential than you do?
Homerlovesbeer (@homerlovesbeer)
6th June 2018, 13:52
Hartley about to get the boot already? Wow that’s pretty harsh and is not going to help his confidence one bit.
bogaaaa (@nosehair)
6th June 2018, 14:14
Shame Hartley is struggling in F1 not sure why he has been quick in other series
petebaldwin (@)
6th June 2018, 16:34
I know what you are saying but the fact is that their “young driver” team have a driver who isn’t setting the world on fire and he’s actually one of the older, more experienced guys on track….
Its there any chance that he’ll ever end up in the main team? If not, there is no point in him driving for RBR.
kris
7th June 2018, 2:39
He is experienced in closed wheel racing though. He hasn’t driven an open wheeler in anger since 2012, it takes some acclimatizing. Its stupid how at the beginning of the year the loved him and hailed his hybrid knowledge and how he can assist Honda with that, and now they look at the final result of the weekend and evaluate him based on that, rather than factoring in that PG 4th place was a fluke, and by and large their performance, in lap pace through the race and practice sessions is not too dissimilar.
BH has been the unlucky one and second to receive aero updates, he had a run in with Perez, docked time because of Perez, multiple bird strikes, one, that is 1, crash of his fault, and they, and it seems many fans, think he sucks, without consideration of all the factors that make up a race weekend. These rumours won’t do him, nor the team any favours.
They need consistency and need to let him complete the year to prove himself, his performance this year can not be summed up in 6 races, and last year is irrelevant as that Renault Engine was a ticking time bomb.
sumedh
6th June 2018, 13:57
Bring Kvyat back and demote him once again, that will also solve the Verstappen problem (He wins whenever Kvyat is demoted)
Chris (@chrisgalaz)
6th June 2018, 14:07
what if this works everytime a driver is demoted??
Egonovi
6th June 2018, 14:45
great idea to bring Kvyat back.
Even better would be to have Kvyat replace Verstappen.
Then you can demote him at least 2 times.
Chris (@chrisgalaz)
6th June 2018, 14:02
that’s such a stupid move. did they expect the f2 leader from another give up and race in a midfield team?? Also these news won’t help hartley too much…..
Chris (@chrisgalaz)
6th June 2018, 14:04
another team to give up*
Esploratore (@esploratore)
6th June 2018, 22:56
Not sure norris would’ve refused, you know it’s hard to get in f1 no matter what, would be his chance, and toro rosso is not the worst team to start with, can’t ask for more, he’d be able to get some decent points in the first season if he’s as good as leclerc or gasly.
Schudha
6th June 2018, 14:20
In one way it’s good they’re trying to get the best drivers in to F1. But I’m the other it’s so disrespectful to be doing this to Hartley’s. It’s said that half the job of being a driver is being in the right mental state. How will this affect him?
Shows how snakey these f1 managers need to be and are. Does karma exist in racing? Does it exist in life? I think only if you feel you deserve it and so unconsciously sabotage yourself. These guys are life differently to the masses.
Vettel fan 17 (@)
6th June 2018, 14:29
Red Bull”s ruthlessness has backfired on them imo. You have to be the next Senna to last there, even great drivers probably won’t get through, so they try other teams.
tonyyeb (@tonyyeb)
6th June 2018, 14:37
@vettelfan17 I agree mostly with what you are saying but I’m sure Red Bull / Marco would respond with “only one driver can win the title – so you only need one person to be the next Senna”. Would Red Bull prefer one championship dominating driver or 4? I honestly think they would only want 1… signed to an extremely tight and long contract, ha!
Vettel fan 17 (@)
6th June 2018, 16:10
@tonyyeb I see where you are coming from but what if the driver think “if a go to this team and have a an off season or even do a little not as good as they think I am the may kick me out, so maybe I should go for another team”?
tonyyeb (@tonyyeb)
6th June 2018, 16:12
@vettelfan17 I think that has been the case for some time. McLaren for example don’t have a great recent history with young drivers (excluding Hamilton who had thousands of miles of testing before his debut season). Some teams are better for younger drivers to prove themselves, get more time, support etc. Other teams are more ruthless. Suppose the same could be said for most other team sports too.
Vettel fan 17 (@)
6th June 2018, 16:24
That’s a very good point, I think the Hamilton/McLaren relationship makes them quite attractive, though K Mag would say different. Red Bull we all know, while Mercedes and Ferrari haven’t really used their youth academy’s to a full extent yet, Though the evens with Perez/Wehrlein might make them think twice over whether to go there also. Not to mention Renault’s driver academy is quite unheard of.
glacierre
6th June 2018, 19:11
Although McLaren was far from nice to Perez and KMag, they are still both in F1 somehow. The TR ex-drivers simply dissapear!
ColdFly (@)
6th June 2018, 14:49
Yes, it might be ‘ruthless’, @vettelfan17.
But then that’s what I expect from F1.
If I had the talent then I would prefer to drive for a ‘ruthless’ team more than for a team where everyone believes my father paid for the seat :p
Vettel fan 17 (@)
6th June 2018, 16:12
@coldfly defiantly F1 is quite ruthless but surely there comes a point where it does more good then bad?
anon
6th June 2018, 18:41
@vettelfan17, well, you could say that Leclerc is an example of that – he’s now beginning to get into his stride at Sauber, but let us not forget that his first few races were fairly poor (such as his spin in the Chinese GP).
Rather than rush to judgement on him or condemn him immediately, Ferrari have shown more patience and support, meaning that we’ve seen Leclerc overcome those initial difficulties and is now starting to demonstrate strong form that is winning praise in the paddock.
With Hartley, we’re seeing the sort of attitude from Red Bull that lead to Kvyat’s confidence being utterly and systematically destroyed, and I would agree that attitude is now coming back to bite them as they’ve completely used up all of their available young drivers.
Hartley was one of the few drivers who had some sort of connection with Red Bull who was available and eligible to enter F1 – the rest of their “Junior Team” drivers are, apart from Ticktum, in Formula 4 or karting series (and Ticktum is only just starting out in the European Formula 3 series, so he’s not remotely close to being able to compete in F1).
Chaitanya
7th June 2018, 4:39
Last year RBR had to put a pay driver in their Toro Rosso car just because their pool has dried up. Overall it seems like RBRs plans have backfired in a massive way.
Joao (@johnmilk)
6th June 2018, 14:41
McLaren accept this and they run the risk of having their reserve driver finish ahead of their two main drivers in the championship
toiago (@toiago)
6th June 2018, 14:59
@johnmilk This made me chuckle
Phylyp (@phylyp)
6th June 2018, 15:36
@johnmilk – nice one! Especially on the back of Dieter’s McLaren piece :-)
sumedh
6th June 2018, 15:50
And that too their reserve driver driving the engine which they disliked :)
David Not Coulthard (@davidnotcoulthard)
6th June 2018, 16:26
@johnmilk Not reserve but wouldn’t be unprecedented, sort of.
Phylyp (@phylyp)
6th June 2018, 16:55
@davidnotcoulthard – nice article, thanks for that blast from the past.
GeeMac (@geemac)
6th June 2018, 14:45
This shows there is a bit of a gap in the Red Bull Junior Team line up. The next driver in line (Dan Ticktum) probably still needs another season or two before being promoted. I am surprised Honda haven’t tried to get one of their drivers into this seat.
tonyyeb (@tonyyeb)
6th June 2018, 14:47
@geemac Sato!!
GeeMac (@geemac)
6th June 2018, 15:08
I was thinking more like Tadasuke Makino…Sato’s F1 days are well behind him.
Esploratore (@esploratore)
6th June 2018, 23:02
And wasn’t good to begin with, and always caused issues to schumacher!
RB14
6th June 2018, 14:47
I genuinely believe Norris isn’t that good. He is just very very small, which means he is very very light.
tonyyeb (@tonyyeb)
6th June 2018, 14:50
Which will be mostly irrelevant next season with minimum driver weight rules.
ColdFly (@)
6th June 2018, 14:51
Doesn’t F2 have minimum weight?
Can’t believe the positioning of ballast is the only reason you lead the championship.
Pau Jennings
6th June 2018, 14:57
I can understand McLaren blocking his transfer over to Toro-Rosso as if he did it would compromise his F2 season or would the FIA and Toro-Rosso allow him to compete in both Championships? If Lando had already won the F2 title then moving over to T.R would have been a good idea but if Red Bull lose patience and love for their own drivers how would they treat Lando if it doesn’t work out? Red Bull make harsh decisions about their drivers all the time, I’d say Hartley probably needs a bit more time to adopt to the modern F1 cars but then again F1 isn’t a patient sport. The next driver to named for the seat will probably be named soon, just a punt but I wonder if they make a bid for Alexander Albon or Nobuharu Matsushita? (Albon does have a link to Red Bull somewhere and Matsushita was or is a Honda backed driver, racing in Super Formula)
BasCB (@bascb)
6th June 2018, 20:16
Matsushita certainly won’t have the superlicence points though.
Chris (@chrisgalaz)
6th June 2018, 20:29
Antonio Giovinazzi???
tonyyeb (@tonyyeb)
6th June 2018, 15:21
Why so many people hating on Norris here? Most don’t have accounts either? Find that odd.
Matthijs (@matthijs)
6th June 2018, 15:57
@tonyyeb What hate? I only read opinions of people who expected more from Norris than he has shown up to now this year. Whether that feeling is justified is another question but I see no hate here.
tonyyeb (@tonyyeb)
6th June 2018, 15:59
@matthijs Hating was maybe a too strong word to use but a lot of negativity. As said above, it is his debut season and his team’s debut season so not sure what much more could be expected from him?
Sviat
6th June 2018, 17:55
No one hates Norris. But why do people have to think that Norris is another great racer just because others say so? Norris must earn respect. Leclerc was 10 times better last year, and Norris failed to replicate the same performance.
Pat Ruadh (@fullcoursecaution)
7th June 2018, 18:30
Norris has earned respect.
He’s the youngest ever Karting World Champion , won 4 championships in one season, won F3 in his rookie year ending the 4 year Prema hegemony, and looks likely to win F2 this year, again in his rookie year, with a team coming back to the formula from an absence.
You cant chalk off that kind of junior career just because he’s not winning F2 by far enough at the moment
Aleš Norský (@gpfacts)
6th June 2018, 15:41
Pure desperation, the Red Bull driver development clearly is not working out as intended. If Red Bull followed their own example (set with Daniil Kvyat) Max Verstappen would have been sent back to Torro Rosso by now to ‘continue his development’ there, and Pierre Gasly would have been promoted to the A team. And I agree that the second STR driver would (should?) have come from Honda.
ZUKMaN
6th June 2018, 15:46
Beacfuse doctor Marko likes them drivers on the frying media pan.
Neil (@neilosjames)
6th June 2018, 15:54
I think it’d be a mistake for Norris to go up now. Honestly haven’t been overwhelmed by him so far in F2 this year… he’s good, and I’m sure he’s got a great career ahead of him, but I don’t think he’s one of those guys who can skip spending a season or two at F2-level and slot straight into F1.
Pat Ruadh (@fullcoursecaution)
7th June 2018, 18:48
I’d argue he’s the perfect candidate to slot straight in to the big league @neilosjames
Since 2016 he’s chucked a lot of money at driving week in week out in the best car he can get his hands on, and been fast and clean in all of them so he’s very qualified in terms of jumping in an unfamiliar car and getting up to speed, and he’s been testing the McLaren already.
stjs16 (@stjs16)
6th June 2018, 15:57
I’d let him race for Torro Rosso, If he’s any good drop Van Doorne. Not sure He’s truly great but definitely has potential as have Albon, Markelov and Russell.
Adam (@rocketpanda)
6th June 2018, 16:12
Norris aside, does this mean that Hartley is 100% being replaced?
If Toro Rosso-Honda can’t bag Norris and the Red Bull driver programme isn’t delivering, who else can they grab instead? Why not nab Kubica from Williams? Ask Button if he wants to pop back in for a while as he’s always close with Honda? I wouldn’t mind seeing Rosenqvist from Formula E in there too. What about Rossi over in Indycar? Then again isn’t Kvyat a tester now for Ferrari, they could always just get him back?
I guess tough luck for Hartley. He’s been unlucky in the races but he’s been shaded by Gasly pretty much throughout the whole year so far in both qualifying and the race so I guess it was to be expected.
Mo
6th June 2018, 19:35
Kubica would be perfect!
RB14
7th June 2018, 10:00
Buemi or Vergne should be top of their list, if the drivers will agree to it that is.
Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
6th June 2018, 17:16
6 races in and he already deserves the boot? I hate the way they treat drivers at Toro Rosso… Why hire him in the first place if you already knew it didn’t fit the team’s intentions?
RB14
7th June 2018, 10:01
They didn’t know he would be so useless, now they do. Hence he goes. It’s quite simple.
Phylyp (@phylyp)
6th June 2018, 17:25
Wow, suddenly RBR/TR’s treatment of Kvyat isn’t looking that harsh anymore.
HUHHII (@huhhii)
6th June 2018, 17:29
Makes sense from TR’s point of view, because Hartley has never been a F1-calibre driver and he never will be. Stupid by McLaren for not to loan Norris. Norris could’ve gather very useful knowledge about F1 before his return to the McLaren. It also would’ve prevented Norris from winning the F2 title. Now if Norris wins F2 and McLaren wants to keep ALO and VAN what shall they do with Norris? Sending him for TR on loan would’ve been a great solution. If McLaren won’t need him he could go back to F2, since he hasn’t won the title yet.
anon
6th June 2018, 18:43
@huhhii, the way it has been phrased by McLaren suggests that Red Bull were not looking for McLaren to loan Norris to them – it sounds more like they were trying to buy him out of his contract with McLaren and make him one of their drivers instead.
HUHHII (@huhhii)
6th June 2018, 18:53
Then McLaren should’ve declined the buying (as they did) but instead of it offer Norris on loan. Both would’ve benefited if that came true.
Stephen Crowsen (@drycrust)
6th June 2018, 18:07
As others have said, Red Bull Corporation have their own driver training system, so why would they be interested in someone who’s signed up with a different Corporation? Loyalty should be two ways, so why should those in the training system remain loyal to Red Bull if Red Bull isn’t loyal to them? If Hartley is to be replaced the most obvious people to do it are the current test drivers at Toro Rosso, Sean Gelael, and the Red Bull Racing, Sébastien Buemi, followed by those from the Red Bull Junior team.
PT (@pt)
6th June 2018, 18:43
The thing is, drivers like Gelael are just kids with cash. They’re nowhere near the calibre of Lando Norris, which is what they need to pair with and push the already talented and proven Gasly.
Dale
6th June 2018, 18:11
I would have loved to be in the room when this request came across the McLaren exec’s desks … they must have laughed and laughed and laughed, & then checked the calendar to make sure it wasn’t April 1st. And then laughed some more.
Ignoring the whole McLaren junior driver in a Honda powered car again gaff, Tost has had his fair share of below-the-belt digs at McLaren so far this year while trying to show public support for his Japanese “power” partner.
And then there’s the whole point of the Toro Rosso team in bringing young Red Bull talent through the pipeline …
PT (@pt)
6th June 2018, 18:40
I knew from last year that signing Brendon Hartley was probably the craziest decision Red Bull and Toro Rosso have taken, and I even said that in my comments. Hartley is no match for the raw talent of Kvyat – if only they’d given the Russian more emotional and psychological support, they could have got the results from him. He’s of a different temeparment to the other Red Bull drivers and that affected his performances on track – but that doesn’t mean he can’t be remade to the talented driver he was. To be honest, who wounldn’t be upset at being demoted from the top team? He was demoted for two consecutive first lap incidents, but Max Verstappen is here crashing the Red Bull more than racing it, and they’re still putting up with him. I know, some of you may say that Verstappen is of a different level to Kvyat, but that really can’t be said because Kvyat never got the chance to show his talent in the Red Bull. He should have been given a year at least. I’m pretty sure Kvyat is more than capable of wins if put in that Red Bull. In any case, I want Toro Rosso to get him back.
Matthijs (@matthijs)
6th June 2018, 19:38
@pt
He was given a year at least, a year and 4 races to be precise. After that he had 1,5 years with Toro Rosso. I feel sorry for Kvyat who was quite talented, but you can’t say he didn’t have a chance. For whatever reason, he didn’t make the most of it.
Garns (@)
7th June 2018, 14:07
@pt
“If only they’d given the Russian more emotional and psychological support, they could have got the results from him.”
Spot on, I have said this before. If they invested more in the psychological welfare of Daniil he would have pulled through. Max is the same boat now but no-way crazy Uncle Helmut will let that ship sail (Marko is getting worse the older he gets!)
I didn’t think Brendon Hartley has been as bad others seems to think. I think its 19:1 in points but Hartley has been unlucky as well. Also Gasly is the ‘new boy’ where to be honest Hartley was just a stop gap (not tyring to be rude here) until they got their next guy in the ever-fading RBR junior self-punishment program. More new young drivers are saying they wont go there- was ok when Dan & Seb were coming through a decade ago but they need to look at culture changes and get rid of Marko if they want new talent.
I would like to see Hartley finish the year and give him some experience- pretty harsh to expect a guy to adapt to single seaters so fast.
PT
7th June 2018, 21:01
Like your way with words – Red Bull “junior self-punishment program” which really is what it is. And judging by his recent comments in Canada, Max is not learning at all. He thinks he is the perfect, all-knowing entity who just can’t go wrong. And Marko and Jos are feeding that poisonous thought into his young mind.
PJA (@pja)
6th June 2018, 19:16
I guess the rumours about Toro Rosso wanting to replace Hartley are true then. McLaren did the right thing to turn down Toro Rosso’s request but I think it is a bit strange from Toro Rosso.
Toro Rosso and Red Bull have a history of being ruthless with their drivers if they are not performing and it was a surprise that Hartley was recalled last year considering they dropped him from their young driver program back in 2010, but we are not even halfway through the season yet, they should give Hartley more time unless they have a clear long term replacement ready to come in, which considering they are trying to get a driver from McLaren seems to say they haven’t.
I don’t follow the junior series, do Red Bull not have any decent young drivers if they are having to try and sign drivers from McLaren?
From Norris’s side it is in his best long term interests that McLaren turned Red Bull down and as tempting as it may be for a young driver in his position to accept an offer like that to race in F1 I think it would probably be better for them to reject it.
Firstly I think drivers should not be in such a rush to get to F1 if it means missing steps in the ladder that is the junior series, these series provide crucial experience which they will need if do they get to F1.
If Stroll had not been fast tracked into the Williams seat and taken his time he would be better prepared for F1, he still may not be good enough overall but I think he would be performing better in a season such as this with more experience and maturity.
Secondly to replace someone mid-season in F1 now with limited testing is not the best even for experienced F1 drivers, they will start off on the back foot and considering Toro Rosso’s history if they do not impress this year that could be their F1 career over.
Another example would Grosjean called up from GP2 to Renault halfway through the 2009 season when he was not ready, and he subsequently lost the seat at the end of the season, it set his career back but he was fortunate to later get a second chance at F1 after dropping back down and winning GP2.
With how hard it is for a young driver to get to F1 some may say they should take any chance they can get, but one wrong move could seriously damage their career and they may not get another chance.
Garns (@)
7th June 2018, 14:41
@pjay
That was a pretty guided post mate, I enjoyed that read- cheers.
@keithcollantine – that’s my vote for COTD.
Gerrit
6th June 2018, 21:17
Have a different slant on the situation. If we change focus from Torro Rosso solely being a driver development team for Red Bull and instead change that (with the introduction of Honda into the mix) to being a engine development development team for Red Bull, we can see why the use of a driver of Hartley calibre was a smart move.
When developing technology (Honda engines for Red Bull) do you want a driver with limited experience in the technology (not used in F4, F3 or F2) or a driver that has had gazillions of development and racing miles in (some would say) with the more difficult technology in WEC cars? A driver used by Mercedes to develop their driving simulator? A driver with some 15+ years of experience in all types of cars?
Now Hartley is never going to be F1 world champion and I don’t think he was chosen to achieve that for Torro Rosso. He is there for engine, chassis and simulator development for Red Bull.
In fact Honda could bring a new engine to every race meeting from here on out and bolt it in the back of Hartleys car. Means taking the penalties sure, but the development and testing reward in a racing environment is huge.
To do that though, requires an experienced development driver such as Hartley (much like McLaren have use Gary Paffett).
The Norris request is a feint in my opinion. Red Bull have bigger plans (Alonso – unlikely but possible). Once the Honda engine is in Red Bull expect Torro Rosso to revert back to being a driver development team for Red Bull.
Gerrit
6th June 2018, 21:25
Torro Ross/Red Bull have a fast racer in Gasly to check if the developments are on the right track and be thus benchmarked.
Steven Robertson (@emu55)
6th June 2018, 21:20
Norris outpaced alonso at the Daytona 24 hours, he is the real deal and I can only think torro are trolling McLaren.
JC
6th June 2018, 21:25
I would say Markelov is the more exciting driver, and probably more available…
Ju88sy (@)
7th June 2018, 15:59
Arguably Markelov has taken a long time (relatively) to develop in his now 5th season, the first 3 season were unexceptional at best as he was blasted away by Palmer…Van Doorne, Gasly and LeClerc. Would he take as long to hit his stride in F1? If he did he wouldn’t last a season in Red Bull structure.
Matt (@hollidog)
6th June 2018, 22:40
I don’t think Brendon has really been that bad so far, he’s just y been a bit unfortunate that his bad luck comes when the car is competitive. His Bahraini tussle with Perez before the start and on the first lap resulting in a stop-go and a 30s penalty, then in Monaco Leclerc brings out the yellows in Q1, ruining his lap, then the race…
Sure he’s made mistakes, practice in Baku and Spain, but he hasn’t spun or crashed under the safety car a la Bottas, Ricciardo, and Grosjean, he even has more points than the latter. Perhaps he should call Guenter
ruliemaulana (@ruliemaulana)
7th June 2018, 4:56
Very uncomfortable for struggling Hartley. They should rehire Kvyat…
JIckx
7th June 2018, 9:28
Toro Rosso did the same thing with Vandoorne in 2013:
http://www.f1journaal.be/index.php/nieuws/artikel/vandoorne-toro-rosso-heeft-me-gebeld-maar-ik-ging-niet-op-het-voorstel-in/
Also then, the proposal was turned down. With Vandoorne it was a 1 year deal, McLaren was multiple years.
matt
7th June 2018, 13:46
Poor old Hartley, it”s going to be a bit awkward at the next race. They dragged him in to the team, the least they can do is let him complete a season.