Alonso not quite convinced of Vettel yet
- 8th December 2011, 14:57 at 2:57 pm #186532GeorgeParticipant
I look forward to Lewis running to red bull “just a drinks company” to quote himself due to being beaten by Jenson in 2012 also.9th December 2011, 0:34 at 12:34 am #186533raymondu999Participant
Why I think people aren’t convinced; is that Vettel’s skills of transcending a car is done more by qualifying super high up; and then staying there; be it by defense or by sheer pace. Given that some people forget that qualifying ALSO requires driver skill; this immediately makes Seb (in their eyes) far less impressive.
@Asanator the car wasn’t a dog, I agree. But it shouldn’t have gotten 4th, 5th places. It wasn’t the 2nd, or even 3rd best car. Don’t forget that Ferrari gives 2nd rate long-life engines – reliable, but not as powerful as the main sets. There’s a reason why the reliability record on customer Ferrari teams have been better (engine-wise) than than the factory team; and why customer Ferrari engines have ever only won once.
@George I’m not talking in specific about Jenson vs Lewis, but your comment:
OK, granted JB is quite a fussy driver with regards to setup and balance. But what is that really saying? That is saying he is quicker when the car is set up too his liking.
is just plain wrong.
Being fussy over setup means you’re fussy over setup. Speed and fussiness over setup has no connection as such. He could be faster, he could be slower. Again, I’m not referencing JB and LH in particular in this example, but your generalization is way way wrong.9th December 2011, 10:37 at 10:37 am #186534phil9079Participant
@raymondu: you’re right, it does take quite an effort to do that 1 specific lap. And like all drivers said SO many times, “it all has to come together.” I think it’s actually a small story. If a piece is missing the story isn’t finished. In other words, if something goes wrong (a steeringmistake or too much accelaration into the corner, or just too less accelaration…). depending on how much time you lost, you’ll not be on pole. The car has to be fueled for 2 or 3 rounds. Because of that, the car is light which is why the car has more grip, but with an F1 car, you’ll easaly spin around if you don’t know how it works. So really it’s just between you (fitness, thoughts need to be clear, concentration) and your car (weight, balance of the car without any problems, you need to feel good in the car, have thrust and faith in it)
But wait, that’s not all of it. There is something that made me like seb. He has a certain commitment to the polelap. He knows that he can accelarate early in the corners with this car. He does that while using every cm of the track, kerb to kerb AND even with KERS and DRS. I remember martin brundle saying: “and he’s straight onto that KERS button, he’s still jogging the thing through the apaxes of 9 and 10!” at sebs polelap at the turkish gp. I remember martin brundle saying: “that’s a sensational lap!” at the brazillian gp as well as australia and the excitements he had when seb had pole. Seb was also always the last man to give a shot for pole. And then there was china where DC said that seb did the fastest ever lap around this circuit in qualy.9th December 2011, 13:34 at 1:34 pm #186535AsanatorParticipant
Sorry raymondu, but I have to disagree with you again, the 2008 Torro Rosso was probably ranked about the same as the Mercedes was this year and we have seen that car get a few 4th and 5th places. Also Ferrari haven’t supplied what you call 2nd rate engines to the customer teams for a very long time. I know this to be fact as my sister used to build the Engines supplied to Sauber in the early 2000’s at Maranello and they were identical to the factory teams units.9th December 2011, 14:05 at 2:05 pm #186536David-AParticipant
@asanator – Mercedes finished 4th in the WCC, STR 6th. I do not buy into the idea that their car was only bettered by Ferrari, Mclaren and BMW when Renault and Toyota were around.10th December 2011, 1:08 at 1:08 am #186537phil9079Participant
Listen to this. I was at a board games evening (1 of my friends is playing there) and I came to know that someone was interested in F1 there too. So I said that I am a seb fan, he was a neutral F1 fan and he said to me “it’s remarkable what this youngman does.”
He then said something that caught my thought, he said “He’s not only having poles and wins, he’s also ‘has the ability’, like schumacher and alonso (and senna ofcourse), to actually ‘make’ the car quicker. He has hundreds of options and he just picks 1 cause he knows that that choice is going to suit for himself as well as for the track.”. He sometimes fails, that’s why F1 drivers mostly say that they were not comfortable with the car. He also said “It’s actually hamilton who saw this from alonso and that’s why he’s so good”
I’m open minded about this theory as well as any other theory but this one seems VERRY logical… I now believe for 99.9% that he could do it.
Allthough this left me a question. IF all of this is truye, how come then that Alonso isn’t the world champion? Maybe because he has a car now which may well be limited. So Alonso as well as his car aren’t always 100%, you know what I’m saying?
What do you guys think?10th December 2011, 8:34 at 8:34 am #186538raymondu999Participant
@Asanator Was it as good as the 2011 Merc? Maybe; maybe not. I’m not going to get into a debate over that; as it is an argument that would never end. I agree with @david-a that the Renault was quicker; and the Toyota – well I don’t remember much about 2008 to even go into that comparison.
Also; the MGP this year has only really been convincingly in podium contention once – in China, and another time in Canada. Vettel was in that position a few times in 2008 and 2007. Spa 2008, Fuji 2007 to name a few.10th December 2011, 20:03 at 8:03 pm #186539EggryParticipant
Well, one day we will know whether Alonso is right or wrong, right? I don’t think Red Bull would made inferior car soon though.12th December 2011, 8:59 at 8:59 am #186540magon4Participant
The advantage the Renault had over the Ferrari in 2006 is, in my view, comparable to the advantage the Red Bull had over the Ferrari this year. Alonso suffered to beat Schumacher, Vettel crushed Alonso.
Just saying.12th December 2011, 9:56 at 9:56 am #186541bananaramaParticipant
@marcio_goncalves I suppose for the first half of the season the Renault 2006 was probably as far ahead of Ferrari as RB was ahead of McLaren this year (the 2011 Ferrari was quite a bit inferior as and I don’t see who could argue otherwise) but probably not as strong on light fuel loads. But then (in my opinion) you are wrong because Alonso got 93% of the points available in that first half. Then the mass damper story came up but still he had 83% of points once the mass damper was banned. Then it went a little downhill, but its not like the RedBull won the race without blown diffuser either, is it? Also, Schumacher was pretty much his only opponent while Vettels opponents took the points off of eachother most of the time.
Looking at the entire season, Vettel 2011 seemed better than Alonso 2006 but your characterisation isn’t correct either in my opinion.12th December 2011, 11:41 at 11:41 am #186542
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