F1

Celebrating Mercedes/Hamilton Dominance, 5th Year

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  • #367831

    V-10 with an 18,000rpm limit like the old days? Remember, real MOTORsports?

    TIL F1 in the ’80s (and the DFV era before) was not real MOTORsports. Because there’s no replacement for displacement and even V8’s simply didn’t cut it.

    I think the cars were much closer in performance [in 2009], and left more of the outcome to driver skill.

    the year of the BGP001.

    I suppose we’ll watch Hamilton/Mercedes win the rest of the races this year,

    You’d be REALLY disappointed with the world championship’s F2 era.

    Is Hamilton as good as Schumi? NO WAY! He’s just got a Mercedes F-16 fighterjet doing his work.

    I don’t see why insulting Rory Byrne, JEAN TODT (of all people), and I guess Brawn like that is a good idea.

    Standardizing components and design parameters” may bring driver skill more to the forefront, which is my greatest hope

    Indycar? F1 has always been an engineering contest as well, even with Lotus/Williams/McLaren/Ferrari/Brackley domination.

    #367975
    GreenSpyder
    Participant

    @David Not Coulthard

    TIL F1 in the ’80s (and the DFV era before) was not real MOTORsports. Because there’s no replacement for displacement and even V8’s simply didn’t cut it.

    Which ICE would you like to see today? What are your thoughts regarding displacement vs. voltage?

    the year of the BGP001.

    That was an excellent car, and took 1st & 3rd that year, with Vettel in the Red Bull taking 2nd, so, not as dominant as Mercedes with Hamilton & Rosberg taking 1st & 2nd in 2014, 2015 & 2016 (immediately following an engine change).

    You’d be REALLY disappointed with the world championship’s F2 era.

    Probably. I don’t watch any other sport except F1. Sitting in front of a TV for 3+ hours on race weekends is a lot for me.

    I don’t see why insulting Rory Byrne, JEAN TODT (of all people), and I guess Brawn like that is a good idea.

    Insult, complement, suggestion, whatever. Lets not read too much into anothers thoughts. By F-16 fighterjet, I’m implying the Mercedes has an unfair power advantage. Argue all you want (and you will!), but I’m NOT the only fan who feels this way.

    Indycar? F1 has always been an engineering contest as well, even with Lotus/Williams/McLaren/Ferrari/Brackley domination.

    “Standardizing components and design parameters” is a phrase I took out of the link in that post. It’s an FIA proposal for the next power formula change in 2021. No, I don’t want to see F1 become a spec car formula, cutting edge changes are necessary to improve the sport. But at the same time, I’d like to see the FIA keep the sport competitive. Why bother watching if I knew it will be a Mercedes/Hamilton-fest week after week?

    <b>Here is a related point</b> (sorry ‘Vettel fan 17) <b>I’d like to make:<b/>
    The FIA rules state:
    –A maximum of 4MJ per lap can be transferred from the ES to the MGU-K (and then in turn to the drivetrain).
    –A maximum of 2MJ per lap can be transferred from the MGU-K to the ES.
    –An unlimited amount of energy can be transferred between the MGU-H and the ES and/or MGU-K.
    (ES=Energy Store, or battery)

    1. This is all new tech, and advantages can be realized and masked. Can components and sensors be flashed and reflashed between inspections? Aren’t cars self-reporting these values?
    2. Regarding the third rule listed above, is it possible that Mercedes has an overwhelming power advantage if they are harnessing and releasing more MGU-H into the MGU-K (drivetrain output)? Given that these are electronic components covered from view, the competition may never discover this and catch up, like mechanical advantages in the past.

    I think of this possiblity when I hear Mercedes talk about “dialing up” or down their power for a race. In fact, there may be rumor that Mercedes suspect Ferrari of bypassing a sensor to create more than the approved MJ/lap this season.

    In the FIA “standardized components” proposal for 2021, is it possible that the FIA realize and will level this advantage, the same as providing standardized ECU components currently?

    Electronic power production/storage/delivery is all new technology to F1, and, I believe, difficult to monitor and regulate as yet. Perfectly legal loopholes and workarounds exist that are beyond the average fans’ understanding. This is why I prefer the good old V8 formula of 2006.

    #368012
    BRAVO@BRAVO
    Participant

    @greenspyder

    Not sure what have been watching, but Merc haven’t been dominant since 2016. And, unlike when Schumacher was winning most of his titles at Ferrari, atleast Rosberg and Hamilton were allowed to fight equally. Contrast Schumacher, usually in the best car but protected by contractual number 1 status with perks like having tyres (Bridgestones) specifically made for him, plus unlimited testing, plus banning his teammates from viewing his telemetry.

    Vettel had a competitive car in 2017, in fact,a good proportion of those in F1 think Ferrari had a car to match Mercs in 2017- some even say the Ferari was the best car on the grid in 2017 but Vettel made too many mistakes. Had he not have messed up in races like Singapore, Mexico, Spain etc, he could have won. He was a head for 75% of the year so to call Merc dominant is simply ludicrous.Either way, it was tight so no way was Merc dominant in 2017.

    2018, ferrari the faster car overall so far (faster in China, Bahrain & Baku). This is the unanimous view of most pundits.

    Perhaps you simply don’t like Merc/Ham and are looking for artificai ways to discredit them? Either way you look at it, Merc haven’t been dominant since 2016.

    #368030
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    @buffy
    When did Vettel mess up in Spain? In Singapore he did a defensive move against Verstappen, how was he supposed to know Raikkonen had had a flyer of a start? He hasn’t got super vision after all. Mexico he got some oversteer when he went over the kerb, nothing intentional. Hamilton had quite a few bad races last year but I don’t see anyone saying “he should have done better and wrapped the championship earlier” or stuff like that.

    #368143
    BRAVO@BRAVO
    Participant

    Hamilton was super consistent in 2017—no OUTRIGHT errors until Brazil qual (by which time he had already won the title). He had a couple of sub-par/off-pace races, but to be frank, so did everyone else.

    Vettel made too many errors of judgement. At the start, he defended too aggressively in Singapore. With Hamilton qualifying down the order, there was simply no need for this, to swerve so severely across track. In Mexico, he was in the fastest car on that track and messed up the start, failed to convert. Spain, the Ferrari was fastest on that track, yet he somehow loses it to Hamilton. Baku, Merc faster but Vettel sees the red mist, earns himself a penalty, preventing him from fully capitalising on Hamilton’s headrest issue. GPS data show Ferrari had the quickest car in Malaysia, perhaps Vettel’s crash in Singapore contributed to his car problems in Malaysia, preventing him from fully capitalising. Then after the race, he gets involved in a silly crash on the cool down lap, perhaps further contributing to his problems in Japan etc etc etc

    Vettel made too many silly mistakes in 2017,failing to capitalise on a car that many say was the best/equal best.

    This is what Marchionne said of their 2017 loss:

    “It was a combination of, especially in the second half of the season, technical issues and driver error, or driver misjudgement. I think the second half revealed some structural weaknesses in the manner which we are managing this business, which are going to get rectified and hopefully 2018 will be a much better season. It’s a 2018 objective now. We regret not having done better, but the car is there. It is in my view probably the best car on the track today.”

    #368226
    GreenSpyder
    Participant

    @Buffy

    Not sure what have been watching, but Merc haven’t been dominant since 2016.


    @KeithCollantine

    It may well be that Mercedes have the best car but that doesn’t make them dominant, and it certainly isn’t borne out by what we’ve seen so far.

    @Vettelfan17

    The dominance finished in 2016,…

    Here are Mercedes statistics since 2014, most numbers taken from this web site, Race Fan:

    Year……Wins….Podiums…..Poles….Laps Lead
    2014…….16…….32………18…….978 of 1134
    2015…….16…….32………18…….936 of 1149
    2016…….19…….35………20……1010 of 1213
    2017…….12…….22………14…….714 of 1196

    Definition of dominant
    1 a : commanding, controlling, or prevailing over all others the dominant culture b : very important, powerful, or successful, the team’s dominant performance–Miriam Webster Dictionary Online

    I hope this puts to rest any doubt about Mercedes dominance since 2014.

    #368231
    GreenSpyder
    Participant

    Please excuse possible multiple posts, I’m having difficulty with my table, and it doesn’t appear after I submit it…


    @keithcollantine

    It may well be that Mercedes have the best car but that doesn’t make them dominant, and it certainly isn’t borne out by what we’ve seen so far.

    @vettelfan17

    The dominance finished in 2016,…


    @buffy

    Not sure what have been watching, but Merc haven’t been dominant since 2016.

    These are Mercedes statistics mostly from this web page, Race Fans:

    Year. Wins. Podiums. Poles. Laps Lead
    2014. 16. 32. 18. 978 of 1134
    2015. 16. 32. 18. 936 of 1149
    2016. 19. 35. 20. 1010 of 1213
    2017. 12. 22. 14. 714 of 1196

    Definition of dominant
    1 a : commanding, controlling, or prevailing over all others, the dominant culture
    b : very important, powerful, or successful, a dominant theme, a dominant industry, the team’s dominant performance–Merriam-Webster Online

    I think this shows Mercedes dominance, even in 2017, where they took more than half the wins, poles and total laps lead. Per Merriam-Webster, that constitutes “commanding, controlling, and prevailing”.

    #368250
    BRAVO@BRAVO
    Participant

    @Greenspyder

    F1 is too complex a sport to be simplistically quoting raw stats and quoting rigid dictionary definitions that cannot encompass the nuances of F1. If you cannot understand this, perhaps you need to be following a different sport. The fastest car doesn’t always get the wins & poles. Vettel won in Australia 2018, but Merc was the faster car in Australia. Hamilton won in Baku, but Ferrari was the faster car in Baku. RebBull won in China, yet ferrari was the faster car over the China weekend…..get the picture?

    So, where in those 2017 stats you quote, does it reflect that Ferrari had the fastest car in Singapore, Mexico, Spain, Malaysia but failed to convert? Where in those stats does it reflect that at tracks such as Spa, there was literally nothing to separate the pace of the Merc & Ferrari? That race could have gone either way? Where does your stats account for Hamilton’s great defensive driving as the reason for his Spa victory,as opposed to the inherent speed of the car???? In fact, we have AMus, Mark Hughes & Vettel himself all concluding Ferrari had the faster car in Spa, yet Merc got the victory(Vettel just couldn’t find a way to get past Hamilton on track). Where in those pole stats does it reflect where Vettel messed up? Like in Spain qualifying where Vettel had the quicker car but made a slight error, that allowed Hamilton to snatch pole? Or in Austria where Vettel was beaten by less than a tenth but made an error on the last corner? etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
    With a better performance from Vettel/Ferrari, their win tally could have been 10. That’s half the 20 races. It’s ludicrous and disingenous to try and paint the W08 as a dominant car. As soon as you quoted bare stats w/o context, for me, you lost further credability.The 2017 Merc wasn’t dominant. You want it to be, to justify Vettel’s loss and diminish Hamilton’s victory.

    And to further back up my assessment, let’s give a couple of inside opinions on the strength of the 2017 cars:

    Daniel Ricciardo -“Lewis’s season – I respect that. He had a great car, but I think Seb’s car was also as good and Lewis just maintained a cooler head, a better level of consistency and composure.You have to respect that”

    Mark Hughes- “-“The Merc is prone to not finding that balancing point or falling off it whereas the Ferrari’s performance is much more robust. All round, Ferrari is a better car”

    Vettel- “”I believe we have the best car in terms of overall package.”

    Christian Horner “-“Ferrari is the fastest/benchmark car”

    Will Buxton -“ferrari argubaly was the best car, a car for all seasons, car suited to every race and track, where as Merc had that diva with problems, wasn’t the best car, not the best with its tyres”

    James Allen -” Ferrari have built a wonderful car this year, whereas the Mercedes is a bit tricky and temperamental. And yet Ferrari finds itself now out of control of the championship, not least due to valuable points dropped in Baku and Singapore”

    Alonso – ” Last year, arguably, Ferrari was better in many of the races, [had] more performance on their car, so it was a very close fight in a way until Singapore when the two Ferraris crashed [into] each other. They were leading the championship, they were in front.”

    Helmut Marko -“Ferrari was clearly the stronger car in the first half of the season and only due to various circumstances could they not materialize all their chances”.

    Ross Brawn -” Ferrari has a competitive package at its disposal. Ferrari are so strong that they can still win the championship on their own power.”

    hHelmut Marko- ““Ferrari certainly had the best car over the whole season, but they made too many mistakes, both tactically and technically. Previously, when Sebastian Vettel drove for Red Bull, his greatest strength was his form after the summer break. He used to return with an uncanny mental strength and what inevitably followed was a winning streak. But this year, already with the start collision in Singapore I thought: That will not happen this year,”

    Andrew Benson- “While the Ferrari is quick everywhere, and has a much more level overall performance from race to race, the Mercedes is unpredictable and difficult to manage and, as a race car, it is probably on balance inferior to the Ferrari”

    Sergio Marchionne-“Ferrari is on a par if not superior to Mercedes “

    I suppose you are going to argue these opinions are worth nowt? That these guys don’t know what they are talking about?

    Quit the nonsense that Merc had a dominant car in 2017. Heck, there is even some doubt about wheter it was even the best car!!! Plenty in F1 say Ferrari was just as good, if not better!!!!!

    #377776
    GreenSpyder
    Participant

    CONGRATULATIONS AGAIN TO MERCEDES/HAMILTON following Sochi!

    No honor, no pride, no glory. A very dark cloud cast over the sport. No joy on the podium. Another rubber stamp season with Mercedes/Hamilton dominating with their overpowered cars. Just as I predicted on starting this forum post.

    To those fans who have to cheer on the obvious winners: argue to your heart’s content. Winning vicariously will be your legacy. Good on you, not looking forward to reading your weak rebuttals.

    Here’s hoping that enough complaints about the lack of competition will help the future formulas focus on better racing. Watching the same team (or even top three teams) consistently dominate the league gets downright boring.

    ‘Nuf sed.

    #377824
    Adam Blocker
    Participant

    Welcome to F1. A large part of it is an engineering competition, that’s what makes it cool.

    However, as others have said, Hamilton potentially winning 4 titles with Mercedes does not tell the whole story. Just like Schumacher winning 5 with Ferrari and Vettel winning 4 with Red Bull, there were some seasons of domination (2002, 2013, 2015) but other seasons where they won while another team had a comparably good car (2003, 2010, 2017).

    It’s nonsense to dismiss Hamilton as a midfield driver when he has beaten Vettel several times this season with a weaker car on the day. See Azerbaijan, Germany, Hungary (thanks to a brilliant wet Q performance), and Italy for races that Hamilton has won without having the best car.

    #377902

    Ferrari have been quicker than Mercedes on one-lap pace more often than not this year. Sebastian Vettel has still led more laps than Lewis Hamilton. This is not Mercedes domination.

    #378553
    GreenSpyder
    Participant

    Congratulations again to Mercedes! What an amazing car. Winning another race by 20 seconds over the next closest team at Suzuka. I imagine we’ll see another rubber stamp in Texas in two weeks. Let’s engrave the 2019 Constructors and Drivers World Champions trophy now, there’s very little doubt about who’ll win those.

    Far superior power, chassis that works above and beyond all others in wet or dry, and literally extends tire life by radial loading (as opposed to lateral loading) just makes this car head and shoulders above the rest. Very well done Mercedes.

    I predict Mercedes will win in Texas next week with another 20 second margin, undoubtedly take pole again, and lead a majority (if not all) laps AGAIN. I strongly suspect Red Bull and Ferrari will be the next in line, then the other eight “also ran” teams. I’d like to be wrong, however this is the modern era of Formula One.

    I could be wrong, but I would expect better comptetion were FOM to entertain the idea of “tech sharing” between the teams…

    #378672
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    No honor, no pride, no glory. A very dark cloud cast over the sport. No joy on the podium.

    That was because of the whole team orders fiasco. If they had won on merit (driver), then the Mercedes boys would have been overjoyed.

    Another rubber stamp season with Mercedes/Hamilton dominating with their overpowered cars.

    Dominating? Overpowered cars? Did you watch the whole season? What about Bahrain when Ferrari were the fastest? Or China? Or Baku? Or Canada? Or Britain? Or Germany? Or Hungary? Or Belgium? Or Italy? That’s 9 tracks off the top of my head and that’s not even counting when they were equal or Ferrari were only slightly behind or Ferrari were faster then Mercedes but slower then Red Bull. For a good fraction of the season Ferrari had the fastest car albeit a small advantage. Team mistakes (especially some strategy calls), driver mistakes (though I believe people are overplaying Vettel’s mistakes, don’t remember anything like this in 2016 when Hamilton fluffed plenty of starts) and most importantly in my opinion, Marchionne’s death which left the team unstable are the reasons the season is ‘rubberstamped’. Just because Mercedes have been ‘dominating’ at Sochi doesn’t mean they have been the best at every race, it’s clear from last season and this some tracks favour Ferrari and some tracks favour Mercedes.

    To those fans who have to cheer on the obvious winners

    This seems unnecessary to me, there are people who have been supporting Mercedes since 2010 so accusing them of cheering on for the sake of them winning is a bit sour in my opinion.

    Here’s hoping that enough complaints about the lack of competition will help the future formulas focus on better racing.

    If there’s lack of competition, it’s between the big three and the rest. Up at the top it’s close (unless you just look at a single result).
    ——————————-

    Winning another race by 20 seconds over the next closest team at Suzuka.

    That’s news to me. Hamilton was about 11 seconds ahead of Verstappen who was only a second behind Bottas (and Verstappen may have been closer to Hamilton if he got past Bottas). And Vettel could have been closer if he was didn’t spin after his overtaking attempt on Verstappen.

    Let’s engrave the 2019 Constructors and Drivers World Champions trophy now, there’s very little doubt about who’ll win those.

    Is there very little doubt who will win? Yes. But (a) if you rewind to even qualifying in Italy, there was still a very good chance for Vettel and Ferrari to win the championships so this isn’t something that was a foregone conclusion from the start of the season and (b) both Hamilton and Mercedes worked hard for this, especially when you consider Ferrari were slightly quicker midseason.

    Far superior power, chassis that works above and beyond all others in wet or dry, and literally extends tire life by radial loading (as opposed to lateral loading) just makes this car head and shoulders above the rest. Very well done Mercedes.

    This again sounds like it’s based on the last race or two. What about earlier when Ferrari had the best car?

    I predict Mercedes will win in Texas next week with another 20 second margin, undoubtedly take pole again, and lead a majority (if not all) laps AGAIN.

    Mercedes will be strong in Texas because it is the type of track their car is better then Ferrari at – fast corners. Dame reason why they wee faster in Suzuka. Doesn’t mean Ferrari’s pace in places like Bahrain, Baku and Belgium becomes completely irrelevant and is wiped from history so saying AGAIN which gives the impression this has been happening since the start of the season like 2015 is again only looking at a certain amount of races.

    then the other eight “also ran” teams.

    Firstly it’s seven teams. Secondly, give them a fair share of the money and I highly doubt they’ll all still be “also ran”.

    I could be wrong, but I would expect better comptetion were FOM to entertain the idea of “tech sharing” between the teams…

    Or they could just stop favouring big teams, being in a budget cap and make a less aero dependant package.

    Just my two cents

    #378764
    Jeanrien
    Participant

    Mercedes do need some acknowledgment this year for their great development. To be in contention for wins, you need a good car from the start of the season and keep developing the car.

    Mercedes has been one of the best in that regard in recent years. Despite being in the top, they were always interested in their rivals solution and seemed to question their own choices and challenge themselves. McLaren could learn a thing or to there.

    #378785
    Mankster
    Participant

    The bottom team in the standings is powered by the same Mercedes engine as the top team. By your logic the Mercedes engine must be the worst of the bunch.

    Even my man maths tells me there more to this F1 lark than the engine. The Mercedes F1 team is leading because they and their drivers are doing a better job.

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