F1

Does Ricciardo deserve a top seat?

Viewing 13 posts - 16 through 28 (of 28 total)
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  • #245305
    David-A
    Participant

    @lhamilton0810

    He didn’t particularly prove himself either though he did get pole and win at the Italian Grand Prix in 2008.

    Have to point out that Vettel did “prove himself” in 2008 (and a little a the end of 2007). He won dominantly from pole in the wet, consistently scored strong results (7 top 6s), and was 8th in the championship ahead of his teammate (scoring 8x his points), a Renault, both Toyotas, both Red Bulls and both Williams. All of them had cars on par, or better than Vettel that year. And on the day your guy won the title, remember who passed him with 2 laps remaining.

    With Ricciardo, it’s hard to see what memorable stuff he’s done early in his career in comparison to Hulkenberg, Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton early in their careers. But he seems a fast driver, so I’m sure he’ll do alright, particularly in qualifying.

    #245306
    Kingshark
    Participant

    @david-a
    Williams did not have a better car than Toro Rosso in 2008. I remember Williams being quite competitive in Australia, Canada, and Singapore, but for the rest of the season they were abysmally slow, and often cruising around in 10-17th place. Rosberg doesn’t strike me as a driver who would underperform a car like that. Also, I’m not convinced with your claim that Red Bull were faster than Toro Rosso in 2008 either.

    Responding to this thread, as I have said before, Ricciardo will surprise quite a few people in qualifying. He’s beaten Vergne in every race so far this season, and JEV is no slough, I think that Ricciardo could be seriously quick over one lap on Saturday in a Red Bull. It would not surprise me if Daniel could outqualify Seb as often as Mark did in 2012. However, his racecraft is an oblivion to me, so I’m not sure if he can match Vettel on Sunday.

    #245307
    David-A
    Participant

    @kingshark – I did say “on par, or faster”. Toyota and Renault were faster, the two roughly on par. Williams were within 3 points of Red Bull, despite Red Bull having IMO the stronger driver lineup (Rosberg had improved in the 2 years since he was a rookie vs. Webber, but Webber hadn’t declined like he has since 2011. Being generous, Nakajima was about even with the declining Coulthard). Meanwhile, Red Bull had the 2008 chassis from the start of the year, STR got it from round 6. The Ferrari engine was better, but quite a good deal of that advantage would have been taken away by the changes that had to be made for the Newey STRs, as described by Giorgio Ascanelli (4th from bottom paragraph). So for me, even if one said the STR was better than the RBR/Williams, it wasn’t close to a better car by 14 points over Webber, or by 18 points over Rosberg. That of course, means I disagree with the guy who said Vettel didn’t prove himself. I agree though, about Ricciardo’s speed over one lap. Whether he can be consistent over a race distance like the champions, is another matter.

    #245308
    Kingshark
    Participant

    @david-a

    That of course, means I disagree with the guy who said Vettel didn’t prove himself.

    I never doubted that, but I’m just doubting whether in 2008 Williams were superior, or even equal to Toro Rosso. Vettel scored over double of Rosberg’s points (35 vs 17), I find it highly improbably that Seb would beat Nico in equal equipment like that.

    #245309
    AdrianMorse
    Participant

    I have high hopes for Ricciardo next season. His qualifying speed has always been in evidence, and I always felt the “Ricciardo is a qualifier, JEV is a racer” cliche was vastly exaggerated. Actually, if you look at Daniel’s race pace of the last half season in particular, it’s actually been pretty good. He may not be able to ‘speak’ to the tyres as well as Vettel, but then who can? He is still young, so perhaps he can pick up a few tricks from Sebastian next season.

    One area of concern are his starts, which have too much in common with Webber’s. Sometimes he just doesn’t get off the line and undoes all the excellent Saturday work in the first few seconds of the Grand Prix.

    #245310
    Hamilfan
    Participant

    Enough of vettel banter and more on Ricciardo Please . My opinion is that he is not a hot shot but a solid driver who can rake up the points when necessary . I feel if he does not win a race ( assuming vettel keeps winning) then they will drop him for someone else justifying the cut throat driver program.Daniel is a solid driver but not a great force to be reckoned with ( but his quali speed is fantastic no doubt ).I am a bit sad that Hulkenberg is being overlooked massively here . I for one think Webber will be missed badly next season for his solid drives . RBR have some tight work to do if they want to dominate 2014 ( It is likely that they will do all the work though ).

    #245311
    Loup Garou
    Participant

    Garns said
    Top drivers do take some time to blossom my mate, so dont count him out just yet. Senna debuted in 84 but took until 88 to win, and he IMHO was the best ever

    Senna won his first race in a Lotus Reanult in the 1985 Portuguese Grand Prix and going into 1988 had 6 GP wins under his belt. Incidentally, Senna won his first WDC (and not his first race) in 1988. I think we can safely say that Ricciardo will not ‘blossom’ that far.

    #245312
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I surely think Ricciardo is a very good driver, but the fact Vergne does beat him at times and is regarded as much slower doesn’t make sense to me. I have imagined for some time now to see Grosjean at Red Bull, and both are Total-sponsored (not like RBR need money)… and his form lately only proves my point. I think with a car like Toro Rosso it’s hard to evaluate a driver. This might be a risky move for RBR, but considering their likely advantage over their rivals it shouldn’t cost them too much, and they can still change driver for 2015.

    #245313
    Jefferson Holden
    Participant

    I suspect this decision is more about appointing a second driver who knows his place. Vettel is for obvious reasons number 1 and Red Bull have wisely not given Webber’s seat away to someone who will challenge that (for now anyway).

    #245314
    Girts
    Participant

    I’m not sure about that. All we know is that Ricciardo is a better qualifier than Vergne (29:9) and that they have been more or less equal on race day (13:12). And I believe that Vergne is going to disappear from F1 forever as soon as Red Bull decide to drop him because no other team will need him.

    I really hope that Ricciardo gives Vettel run for his money but I don’t expect him to be better than Webber.

    #245315
    Ben
    Participant

    Hey everyone, long time forum stalker here, I thought I’d finally post something. :)

    So the question is “does DR deserve a top seat”, well the truth is there are really only a select few that know the answer to that question, the race engineers. We know Red Bull are fanatical about the driver feedback loop, its one of the reasons Newey rates Webber so much, the feedback helps develop the car. I can’t find my source (probably on F1F) but there were comments from both STR and RB praising DR for the very technical feedback, this along with his natural talent needs to be taken into account when deciding if he is deserving of a top drive.

    In terms of race craft, I think thats a very hard thing to learn without the miles on the track, also the skills you need to battle it out towards the back are very different than the ones you need to fight for the podium. Look at how Grosjean has developed as a driver, its clear these are skills that can be honed and developed.

    From a pure speed perspective, DR has out qualified Vergne and matched him on race day and Vergne (former Formula 3 champion, 2nd in Renault 3.5) is no slouch.

    So everything in account I think that yes, he is deserving of this seat. Red Bull have clearly demonstrated they are the brightest sparks on the grid at the moment, they don’t get many calls wrong and I don’t think this is one.

    #245316
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    @ben – good first post mate, its not that hard is it? :)

    I think a good point is made here, Red Bull will always like to percieve the RBR junior racing program is working, so would love to promote Dan or Jean-Eric when they can. BUT they are also pretty quick to swing the axe as well. Buemi and Jamie would concor I think!

    #245317
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    About whether or not Daniel deserves that seat: What would you have thought if Vettel moved to Ferrari or McLaren at the end of 2008 (a season on which it was fair to say that the Toro Rossos were Red Bulls with a Ferrari engine and a slightly darker livery), considering that we probably thought that they were still going to be the top 2 in 2009, not knowing that Tyrrell and Jaguar turned out in 2009 to be the 2008 McLaren and Ferrari.

    I could be wrong, but I think the only reason that we were fine with Vettel moving to Red bull at the end of 2008 was because we thought that Red Bull were still going to be midfielders in 2009. Had we known about the RB5 and BGP001 back then, I think we would’ve cried about how 4 mediocre drivers got the 4 best cars on the grid.

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