F1

If neither VES nor GRO is lying about Monaco…..

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  • #299425
    David Not Coulthard
    Participant

    Grosjean subsequently pointed out he had braked later than usual for the corner when he was hit by the Toro Rosso. Verstappen said his own data showed he “didn’t brake any later”.

    So they’re both blaming each other and claim to have the exact same kind of evidence – which sadly means evidence of a kind that’s not to be shown publicly.

    IF
    both are telling the truth, which would mean that VES didn’t brake later and GRO actually did brake later having lifted off later compared to the previous lap in which a crash didn’t happen between them, what might have happened?

    #299427
    VMaxMuffin
    Participant

    IF both are telling the truth, which would mean that VES didn’t brake later and GRO actually did brake later having lifted off later compared to the previous lap in which a crash didn’t happen between them, what might have happened?

    If this is the case then it’s probably just that Verstappen was much closer this lap than the previous because he had a faster car. I think it’s still his fault, because a more experienced driver would have recognised Grosjean was struggling and would be braking earlier than himself. Although knowing that he didn’t outbrake himself does make it slightly less his fault.

    #299431
    Matthijs
    Participant

    @vmaxmuffin tells a big part of the story, but I also think it comes down to what we call in Dutch the ‘harmonica effect’. No idea if it’s correct English though, but this is the basics: if you are right on someones tail, you cannot use your normal braking point. Even if Grosjean had the exact same braking point as Verstappen had, Grosjean always braked a fraction earlier in time (because he reached the braking point earlier than Verstappen), so the one behind (Verstappen) always has to brake a bit earlier than normal in order not to touch the one in front (Grosjean). I’m not so arrogant to think that I know this and Verstappen doesn’t. I just guess that Verstappen has underestimated how much sooner you have to brake when the speed is so much higher than he is used to.

    So: both are probably telling the truth but the combination of this harmonica effect and the effect of fresher tyres causes the crash. My view.

    #299432
    VMaxMuffin
    Participant

    @Matthijs yes you’re right. By the way in English we call that the concertina effect or accordion effect. In English this is what we call a harmonica whereas an accordion or concertina is what you mean I think.

    #299434
    PorscheF1
    Participant

    To me, from some angles, it looks like VES just did not brake at all. Being so focused on overtaking and looking at what Grosjean was doing he forgot to brake, misjudged how fast they were going to be in the braking zone.

    #299428
    David Not Coulthard
    Participant

    @vmaxmuffin

    I think it’s still his fault, because a more experienced driver would have recognised Grosjean was struggling and would be braking earlier than himself.

    GRO said he broke later…so even if he’s struggling I doubt it explains VES hitting GRO.

    But if they were closer (watched a VES onboard some time ago but forgot if they were)….I guess that might be the cause.

    Or have I missed something?

    #299433
    David Not Coulthard
    Participant

    In that case it’d be a racing incident and the only mistake (for which VES should apologise) VES would have made is claiming GRO brake tested him.


    @matthijs
    Wonder why the term was never quite loaned to Indonesian……I guess motor racing never quite picked up here until 1942.

    Wonder why the chaps at Sky, etc haven’t discussed that possibility yet…….might they know something we don’t, or is discussing the accordion effect simply a bit unprofitable? (or have they discussed it and I’ve simply missed it?)

    #299522
    David Not Coulthard
    Participant

    @xtwl VES said though that he wasn’t making an overtake.

    #299532
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    It looked like Verstappen expected Grosjean to be faster there based on what the Lotus driver had been doing on previous laps. It certainly seemed that RG was unduly slow at that point.

    #299673
    Tinakori Road
    Participant

    Of course Verstappen is lying. The framing of the question is wrong. It was his responsibility to overtake safely per the rules which he didn’t do. First he lied and said Grosjean ‘Brake checked him’, a lie. Then, at Canada’s press confab, he threw out a Red Herring about Massa and last years’ Canada crash where Perez moved over under braking to discount Massa’s take on Verstappen’s not receiving a penalty before one was handed out.

    Sounds very much like a ‘Son of Privilege’ that does not want to take any responsibility for anything, let alone misjudging the overtake.

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