Who’s better – Massa or Webber
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@ Dizzy-A & others: could/should Ferrari think about getting him back to pre-hockenheim-2010-form..pretty much ASAP ?
I mean, they really need Massa out there to help Alonso but even more for the WCC.Felipe Massa of 2008:
Drove an unreliable F2008.
Scored 97 out of 180 points. (53.89%)
Won 6 out of 18 races. (33.33%)
Lost the WDC by one point.
He was one corner away from winning it.
Crushed his teammate, Kimi Raikkonen.
Beaten by Hamilton in an almost equal car.
Lost two easy wins in Hungary and Singapore.
Gained one lucky win in Belgium.Mark Webber in 2010
Drove a reliable RB6.
Scored 242 out of 475 points (50.95%).
Won 4 out of 19 races (21.05%).
Lost the WDC by 14 points.
Never looked like a serious threat in Abu Dhabi.
Was beaten by teammate, Sebastian Vettel.
Lost to Alonso despite driving a much faster car.
Lost no wins due misfortunes.
Gained two wins in GBR and Hungary due Vettel.Yeah, in their prime, Massa was definitely better than Webber, hands down, and IMO that’s not even debatable.
Shortest debate ever.
I agree that this is the least debatable debate ever. Just look at all the evidence and reasoning above. ;-)
@Kingshark If your evidence for Massa being better than Webber comes down to comparing two completely different individual seasons, than I can provide you with similar evidence that Kamui Kobayashi is much better than Fernando Alonso, hands down… ;)
But while we’re all comparing figures, perhaps this is the most telling stat of all…
For once I totally agree with Magnificent Geoffrey, it should be the shortest discussion ever.
Webber is the better driver.
That is not to say Massa hasn’t had some good performances, but I think the stats say he is more liable to bin it, than win it. In the fantasy world of which drives would you have in your team, Massa would not be up for consideration, at all, by me.
Webber. Massa doesn’t even come close.
@Magnificent-Geoffrey – Overall, yeah, I agree with you, but I think you’ve fiddled the numbers with Massa’s Google search ;)
Massa by quite a margin in my opinion, if Massa was to drive a Red Bull in these days, he would have shock a lot of people….just as he did when he was Raikkonen’s team mate.
I think it is a good reason Ferrari have him employed, in addition to being a fine no.2 besides Alonso generally speaking.
If your evidence for Massa being better than Webber comes down to comparing two completely different individual seasons, than I can provide you with similar evidence that Kamui Kobayashi is much better than Fernando Alonso, hands down… ;)
I compared Felipe Massa’s best season with Mark Webber’s best season, hence why I compared 2008 to 2010. That is a good comparison, because we get to see how good each driver was in the absolute peak of his career, and the answer is indeed Massa, by quite a margin.
Mark Webber, was at no point during his career, an equal of a driver to Felipe Massa in 2008. Do you agree or disagree with that statement? If you agree, then you’ve just admitted the fact that Massa is a more capable driver than Webber, if both are at their best.
“I compared Felipe Massa’s best season with Mark Webber’s best season, hence why I compared 2008 to 2010. That is a good comparison, because we get to see how good each driver was in the absolute peak of his career, and the answer is indeed Massa, by quite a margin.”
I’m not seeing that in the data available. The competition was a lot fiercer in 2010, so arguably it was more impressive for Webber to have his 2010 season than for Massa to have his 2008 one.
Webber is certainly a much, much better driver than post-crash Massa. Over the course of their careers it’s a lot closer, but I’d still pick Webber over Massa.
“Never looked like a serious threat in Abu Dhabi.”
Heck, you could say THAT about Alonso!
The competition was a lot fiercer in 2010
Regardless of Massa/Webber, I’m not too sure about that. While it was a 5-way battle for a long time in 2010, that also allows you to skip a beat, as the order of Webber-Vettel-Alonso-Hamilton-Button went everywhere for a number of races. In 2008, Hamilton did not allow Massa to miss as many points as Webber did in 2010 and Raikkonen looked like he was in for a title defense early on as well. It’s not as if Raikkonen was completely lost during the entire 2008 season and as if Hamilton and Massa lucked into competing for the Championship. Hamilton would not have won if he was performing as in his debut season.
2008 was a two horse race, which means Massa winning more races then than Webber did in 2010 is not really that impressive.
If Massa’s 2009 was more impressive than Webber’s 2010 because Massa won six times and Webber “only” four, what about Alonso’s and Vettels 2010? Each won “only” five races that year – does that mean Massa was better in 2008 than Alonso and Vettel were in 2010? Vettel also won “only” five times in 2012, so it seems Massa’s 2008 performance was one for the ages.
Hell, Massa won more races in 2008 than Hamilton did. Would anyone care to argue that this “proves” Massa was the better driver that year?
You simply cannot say that because Driver A won more races in year X than Driver B won in year Y that this “shows” Driver A is better than Driver B.
I consider Webber a slightly sub top driver. I consider Massa upper midfield on a good day. In the current field I’d rank Webber in the top 7 and I’d replace Massa at Ferrari any day by HUL, RIC, JEV, SUT, DIR, PER (yes PER), GRO or BIA.
@jonsan
My conclusion is based on far more than just the race wins alone.In 2010, Mark Webber drove the RB6, which was the fastest car throughout the season by a large margin over Ferrari and Red Bull. Webber did not have the reliability issues Vettel did. Despite that, he was beaten in the championship by both Vettel, who drove a much more unreliable car, and Alonso, who drove a much slower car.
In 2008, Felipe Massa drove the F2008. It was the fastest car throughout the year in the dry, but only slightly faster than the McLaren. The Ferrari was also slow in the wet and had bad reliability. Massa finished only one point behind Hamilton in almost equal cars. He also dominated Raikkonen in the same car.
Isn’t that enough to prove that an in prime Massa is better than an in prime Webber?
It’s got to be Massa in my opinion. Felipe has show that in the right conditions and with the car set -up to his liking, he can challenge at the front consistently. Also the fact that Massa has been paired with tougher team-mates throughout his career. In 2006, there were races where he was super quick, beating Schumacher at times especially in qualifying. 2007 illustrated his qualifying speed as he took 6 poles against a driver whom many regarded as the fastest in F1 at the time. Most especially, 2008 proved not only could he mount a consistent title challenge and comprehensively beat his world champion team-mate, he didn’t choke in the end like Webber did in 2010. His race in Brazil 2008 is unfairly overlooked in my view; while Lewis Hamilton was floundering in conditions that were supposed to suit him, Massa kept it together at the front from start to finish in a race that came with it monumental pressure.
Webber was impressive in 2009 and 2010 no doubt about it. But a part of why he was close to Vettel in 2010 was as a result of Vettel’s reliability issues and inexperience, this period is where Webber should have capitalised on Vettel’s weakness and seized the title, but he was nowhere in the last few crucial races.
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