Formula E

Comparing Formula E with other racing cars

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  • #295920

    As Formula E mostly races on circuits not used by other championships, getting a feel for the performance of the cars compared to rival series is tricky.

    However for the sixth round of the championship Formula E are racing on a shortened version of the Long Beach circuit visited by IndyCar every year, so we can get a like-for-like look at the performance of the cars through some of the bends.

    Here are the cars approaching turns eight, nine, ten and eleven on the full circuit (four, five, six and seven for the Formula E drivers):

    Formula E:

    IndyCar:

    Next month Formula E will race on an abbreviated version of the Monaco Grand Prix circuit, giving us a chance to see how they compare with F1 cars…

    #295992
    George
    Participant
    #295996
    Will Wood
    Keymaster

    It’s an interesting comparison. Although, the only thing we can conclude from it is that Formula E cars are a fair bit slower than IndyCars – which is something we already knew to begin with.

    You ave to imagine that, over time, the speed and performance of the Formula E cars will increase rapidly as development takes place – especially with the technical rules opening up next season.

    Although, there is a big part of me that thinks the equal equipment is one of the main reasons why Formula E has been so entertaining and competitive so far and I hope that we don’t lose that next season as teams get more license to develop their own cars.

    #296000
    PorscheF1
    Participant

    You ave to imagine that, over time, the speed and performance of the Formula E cars will increase rapidly as development takes place – especially with the technical rules opening up next season.

    I’m not so bothered with the fact they are slower right now or they don’t race on proper tracks, or the sound. It’s a brand new series still in its development to find itself. What does bother me is the fact they need two cars to finish a race.

    The one thing where electric cars fail on petrol cars is range. There are several electric cars that look great, have great technology but only have a range of at best 500km. After which you have to charge it for 8 hours.

    Electric cas are already something of the past and have no future except for rich people who can afford them alongside their petrol car.

    If you want to invest in energy, invest in water. When oil runs out, cars WILL run on hydrogen and not electricity.

    #296009

    The one thing where electric cars fail on petrol cars is range. There are several electric cars that look great, have great technology but only have a range of at best 500km. After which you have to charge it for 8 hours || If you want to invest in energy, invest in water. When oil runs out, cars WILL run on hydrogen and not electricity.

    @xtwl You seem to be blaming electricity for what seems to actually be a problem with battery technology, and perhaps ignoring the possibility of a development in battery technology

    Oh, and on a perhaps slightly unrelated note many hydrogen cars (the Mirai, FCX Clarity) simply replace the battery component of the ‘usual’ EV’s circuit with fuel cell(s). They seem to outnumber hydrogen ICE cars.

    Electric cars are already something of the past and have no future except for rich people who can afford them alongside their petrol car.

    Have been, in all fairness, since the days when there existed the Austro-Hungarian empire, the Russian tsardom, and when Puyi was an emperor.

    It then became (a tad close to) current again several times between then and now.

    #296011
    PorscheF1
    Participant

    Hydrogen cars already work perfectly, exactly like the cars we have reducing emission to nothing but water. The thing we’re missing is places to get hydrogen from. The energy crisis is solved. Plenty of companies are just holding is back as there is billions and billions of money in oil.

    Electric cars could take another decade before they even resemble the cars we have now.

    #296012

    @xtwl And are you sure another decade is more than the time needed to drop Hydrogen prices?

    And you seem to imply EVs don’t work perfectly, which I disagree with – it’s like sayig touchpads don’t work perfectly based on the pointing stick’s positives.

    The main problem with EVs and Hydrogen-ICE’d cars seem to be very similar: the source of energy.

    #296014
    PorscheF1
    Participant

    @davidnotcoultard The prices will drop as soon as it is sold to the mass, so don’t worry about that.

    Where does electricity come from? We don’t need a solution in ten to twenty years, we need it now! Hydrogen cars can be sold right away if only there would be some national investment in hydrogen stations but as I said before there is plenty of money to be gained from oil. It’s like inventing a cure for cancer but not selling it because treating someone and billing them along the way makes more money.

    Apart from Denmark there is no country in the world that gets a decent amount of energy from alternative sources. Yet a massive collective investment could allow governments to build solar panels in the desert in Africa which can provide the entire world of electricity. Some African dictator could build an entire solar panel park and sell power and become the wealthiest man in the world, sadly they don’t have the money to begin with.

    Electic cars is a cool thing from a technological point of view. They are marvelous pieces of engineering like the Veyron but neither of them helped us forward in the battle against the climate. Electric cars pollute the air, are user unfriendly and are more earth unfriendly to be made as well. Hydrogen cars on the other hand have nothing but water as exhaust gasses and are exactly the same as the cars we both drive right now. The only difference is you pump something else in your tank.

    Sure the battery development will continue and surely will improve but you’ll still need to charge it for hours on end. People like cars because they can get in, drive untill they run out, gas up and drive some more. They don’t want to be waiting even one hour in between and there is where electric cars fail for now. So let’s say batteries improve over the nest ten years, they still would need a 1000% improvement on capacity and double that in recharging to come near a normal car.

    On the company side, electric cars cost so much to built even GM admitted they lose around $40k on every Volt they build. After the enormous rise and popularity of the electric car the sales of these cars have plumeted ever since. Except for the Tesla GT who does well because they carry a certain status that people like.

    In essence, I like the Tesla cars, I like the technology behind the cars, only two days ago I reqested a test drive in one. BUT, they have no place in the future next to hydrogen cars if you ask me.

    #296085

    @xtwl

    Where does electricity come from? We don’t need a solution in ten to twenty years, we need it now!

    Nuclear reactors, Fuel Cells, etc

    Electricity is everywhere already! Where it’s coming from isn’t really a problem. The only single problem is how awfully long batteries recharge. Electric cars are not unfinished and already work perfectly.

    Especially since batteries can be replaced with something else anyway (fuel cells), removing the range problem.

    That said, I’m not saying for sure how EVs compare against FCEVs or Hydorgen-ICE. I’m just annoyed when a comment suggests that electric cars are still at a beta stage or otherwise pre-version-1.0 stage or something like that based on some of the things different in EVs compared to ICE cars. I hope such a logic is never applied to Touchpad v. Pointing stick arguments.

    And you seem to be treating electricity as this kind of molecule, rather than an energy caused by the movement of electrons, which needn’t involve batteries that can take ages to recharge.

    Let’s put it this way: The Toyota Mirai is an EV. Is it hampered by slow charging? Of course not!

    Having said that, should Hydrogen ICE cars pick up in popularity, I can’t wait to see Wankel hydrogen cars with emissions of nothing but water and fuel! It’ll emit a lot of emissions, but it’s fuel or water anyway!

    And, as hydrogen prices drop, not only hydrogen ICE engines will become more viable, but FCEVs as well. So EVs could still be the future!

    #296089
    PorscheF1
    Participant

    @davidnotcoulthard You’re completely missing my point. Electric cars are not the future because they don’t save the environment which is the first reason we started with this technology. Hydrogen, fuel cells and electric cars.

    As you said yourself electricity comes from Nuclear reactors; These are high waste factories that bring more damage to this earth than anything else on this planet. And that is when they don’t explode! Sure electricity also comes from dams, windmills, solar panels but that is just a fraction. Also nuclear energy isn’t the mass but fossil burning is.

    Electric cars are not unfinished and already work perfectly.

    Wrong if you ask me. Because I own a petrol car, I can drive everywhere without having to worry about anything. Had I had an electical car I would not be able to get in and drive to Italy for example, thus they don’t work as the cars we have now which is not perfect. Where am I going to get power? Even worse, I can’t get there on one recharge anyway. This of course excludes fuel cell powered cars as they need hydrogen to be powered in the first place. I’ll agree they work perfect if they do exactly what my car does now without emissions.

    I’m just annoyed when a comment suggests that electric cars are still at a beta stage or otherwise pre-version-1.0 stage or something like that based on some of the things different in EVs compared to ICE cars.

    Electric cars have come a long way since those little two person cars who can’t drive over 50kph. But in comparison since we started with hydrogen much bigger strides have been made towards a zero emission car for the people. The Honda FCV is the car of today with one differnce, you pump hydrogen instead of petrol. Done, problem solved, all we need is hydrogen gasstations.

    Then there is still the emission created whilst building a electric car compared to an hydrogen engine. Once read a study about the inpact of 1000 cars on the environment and ozon. Electric cars influence that three times as badly as the same amount of petrol cars. How is that going to solve the energy crisis? Or are you planning on just using more uranium and dumping it in the sea along the way? The total package of emission from an electric car can at best match a petrol car, and over the very, very long range be better. Again, where a hydrogen car starts ahead right away.

    Electric cars are not the future, not because the cars are all that bad (and even then technology will find a better way than there is now, that is just how things go), but all the side effects when you already own the car are equally as bad for the environment alongside the impracticallity for the user.

    I hope such a logic is never applied to Touchpad v. Pointing stick arguments.

    I don’t know why you keep bringing up the touchpad…?

    In the future both types of cars, even petrol cars, will see a decrease in emissions. But once a hydrogen car is on the road its emission is zero whilst an electic car will always need to recharge.

    The way I see it there are two ways to go from here.
    1) Electric cars powered by solely green energy coming from solar panels, dams, and windmills. Together with the technology that we will have in the coming years that will be a good solution. Drawback is the massive cost of these green plants and the oil industry basically destroyed.

    2) Hydrogen cars that need to be fueled at stations yet to be build all over the world. A massive cost in infrastructure is needed to provide hydrogen to the mass.

    In both cases I believe it is to little to late though but that is another story.

    #296090
    PorscheF1
    Participant

    I’m just annoyed when a comment suggests that electric cars are still at a beta stage or otherwise pre-version-1.0 stage or something like that based on some of the things different in EVs compared to ICE cars.

    Like to add, they are not in 1.0, but both hydrogen cars and electric cars are still in development and will see massive strides forward in the years to come. Records date back from around 1990, that’s some sad 25 years. Look at the first 911 and a modern 911, those same big steps WILL be made on both types of engines. It is where we go towards a more eco friendly we should put our focus though.

    #296110

    @xtwl

    You’re completely missing my point. Electric cars are not the future because they don’t save the environment which is the first reason we started with this technology.

    OK, point indeed missed I guess. Electric carts originally competed with ICE cars back in the pre-WW1 days though so Eco-thingies weren’t the reason EV’s got it’s initial start. But (yeah) regarding the current generation of EVs, you’re right.

    You seem not to realise that FCEVs are really EVs, though. The Mirai which some refer to as ugly (I think it looks great – not few of the new Toyota designs suck but the Mirai’s doesn’t in my opinion) is actually an electric car. Where does it get its electricity, though? A certain member of the periodic table.

    Then there is still the emission created whilst building a electric car compared to an hydrogen engine. Once read a study about the inpact of 1000 cars on the environment and ozon. Electric cars influence that three times as badly as the same amount of petrol cars.

    IF that is caused by the batteries, then EVs that don’t rely on batteries (i.e. Fuel Cell EVs) don’t really fall foul (any better terms? Anyone?) of this.

    I don’t know why you keep bringing up the touchpad…?

    I only bring up touchpad in combination with pointing sticks, and as for why I keep using that, well, it’s not easy to come up with examples, you know! :P

    Because I own a petrol car, I can drive everywhere without having to worry about anything.

    And then the fuel pump fails, or the radiator (for me, calling EVs unfinished or hydrogen cars unfinished can only be done by a standard under which ICE cars aren’t finished either. We do prefer ICE cars, but that’s a different matter).

    As you said yourself electricity comes from Nuclear reactors

    1) Electric cars powered by solely green energy coming from solar panels, dams, and windmills. Together with the technology that we will have in the coming years that will be a good solution. Drawback is the massive cost of these green plants and the oil industry basically destroyed.

    Electricity also comes from fuel cells. Cars using fuel cells are both electric and hydrogen-using.

    I can agree with you now only as far as the opinion (sadly I think we’ve got to call it that) that batteries aren’t the future of EVs, never mind motoring.

    However, I can’t agree with you on the idea that EV’s aren’t the future. Not as long as fuel cells exist. Or a hole in Peter Warr’s (you know what I’m talking about!:). The idea that EVs can be nothing more than engines that have the fuel burned elsewhere (namely dams and nuclear reactors) is just wrong.

    Basically even if someone with a crystal ball of 100% accuracy says that hydrogen will be the future of motoring, the question of whether it’s going to be hydrogen ICE cars, or fuel cell electric cars, or both, would still be far from being answered.

    #296111

    Like to add, they are not in 1.0, but both hydrogen cars and electric cars are still in development and will see massive strides forward in the years to come.

    @xtwl (Like to add too;)I, personally, actually think of it a little bit differently: that they’re both version 1.0.x or 1.x or something like that, but with the numbering scheme used by Linux prior to version 3, or by Firefox in its version 3 days, ICE engines would be version 21.12.x.x or something like that:)

    Of course, that’s just me.

    #296142
    Keith Campbell
    Participant

    @xtwl

    Sorry to go a bit geeky and off-racing-topic but electric cars aren’t as bad as you make them out to be. Of course the technology still needs improvement, but improvements can happen exponentially in a short space of time. Solar PV panels at one time were very expensive to produce, both in money and carbon cost but costs have come down around 75% in the last 5 years alone so they can now make a reasonable return. There may be similar associated manufacturing costs with electric cars currently but those will also drop significantly over time.

    Other engineering issues like charging times will be overcome with time too. There are already charging stations capable of charging a car in under an hour and i’ve also heard discussions on a system where batteries would be swapped out at a ‘refuel’ station rather than charged on the spot (the car owner essentially wouldn’t ‘own’ the battery, just pay for a charged one much like paying for fuel).

    Hydrogen fuel cells are also promising and may be the ‘end-game’ solution but are much further from commercial realisation in my view. I don’t think there is any reason both electric and hydrogen vehicles can’t play a part in the future of transport (supported by low carbon electricty sources such as renewables).

    #296169

    @keithedin

    , but improvements can happen exponentially in a short space of time

    In all of my comments above I forgot to explicitly say that. Yeah, you’re right:)

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