Supporting Bahrainis = Supporting the GP – The Latest On Bahrain
- 2nd June 2011, 20:11 at 8:11 pm #170635xtopheMember
So all of the world’s media are conspiring against Bahrain? I find that very odd to believe, seeing as Bahrain is strongly allied to the West’s best buddy in the region Saudi-Arabia. Bahrain has been very much out of the news where I live. I have been told by a Belgian journalist that it is simply impossible to enter Bahrain as a TV-crew at the moment. Why is this? Surely if everything is perfect there is no problem in letting the world see it. Is it because they might frame a different picture than the government is doing now?
I will however hand it to you that media have been very eager to categorize every uprising in the Arab world as being part of a revolutionary wave. The specifics of each country’s problems diverge. It is however very likely that they have inspired one and other.2nd June 2011, 20:31 at 8:31 pm #170636Ads21Participant
I’m sure LAK represents the sincerely held view of many Bahraini’s and for many there life is very much back to normal, but I have no doubt that there have been some horrific human rights abuses taking place in the country. But the question of the morality of racing there comes as a secondary consideration to whether or not its safe to do so. Since the foreign office advice is still against all but essential travel and it doesn’t seem like over the summer there’s going to be a significant increase in political stability, or a reduction in the crackdown, so I can’t see there being any way of hosting the race. Especially considering the teams aren’t exactly keen on racing in mid December.2nd June 2011, 20:58 at 8:58 pm #170637MaciekParticipant
LAK – your explanations just aren’t believable. Doctors faking gas exposure? Why would they do that? If the opposition are acting like terrorists why did this all start with peaceful marches before descending into chaos when government troops fired on protesters? If the government wants “truth to win out” why limit media access from outside?
PM – your ‘contributions’ on this topic are a bad running joke. You unfailingly side with whoever is the highest established authority, be it Bernie or the Bahraini government. In fact you consistently show a distasteful lack of moral consideration (rubber bullets are a fine measure of crowd control, Bernie was taken out of context when praising Hitler, etc, etc). Icky.2nd June 2011, 22:55 at 10:55 pm #170638US_PeterParticipant
Well put.2nd June 2011, 23:08 at 11:08 pm #170639JCCJCCParticipant
Propaganda is like magic. Controlling the media is a huge step to control the minds of the people. Look at this, the government sends the army to open fire against peaceful demonstration. They kill several unarmed people. They have the same government for almost 40 years, and most of them probably still believe this is the best for the nation.
In the western countries we have lots of propaganda, most of us believe that we can decide our destiny just because we can choose the persons we have in the governments, but that’s a naive thinking…
About the title of the topic: “Supporting Bahrainis = Supporting the GP” I don’t agree. Don’t you have a better destination for the millions that you pay to Bernie? Don’t you have poor people, schools, hospitals, child care centers, unemployed? Don’t you have roads, railways or bridges to build? I love F1, but let’s face it, it’s just a bunch of cars going around in circles. There are lots of much more important things in life.3rd June 2011, 0:03 at 12:03 am #170640sato113Participant
yes, well put maciek.
‘I for one find the likes of BBC, al Jazeera etc pretty reputable, and certainly a more reliable source than a lone F1 Fanatic who has made it very clear over the last few weeks that he/ she is extremely pro government.’
i agree ned. We can’t just agree with someone’s reportings because they are a fellow F1 fan!3rd June 2011, 5:29 at 5:29 am #170641LAKParticipant
@Asanator Thank you for your comment, you’re entitled to your opinions but just think about these things: What about the reports of killings of innocent civilians by the opposition, the brutal murder of the two police men, the Pakistani man who has been disabled and cannot talk because his tongue was slit, the Pakistani men who were stabbed because they mistook them for naturalized Bahrainis? The injured traumatized university students? What do you say to their families? What do you say to those who have lost their lives because they did not get receive the medical care they needed because some sectarian doctor refused to treat them?!
What about the medical report linked in the article “Part 1” of the doctors giving their patient illegal amounts of “Atropine” in order to mimic nerve gas exposure so that the media films the injured with exaggerated symptoms? What about the right of that patient?
There are documented videos in the article I posted about most of the cases I mentioned. It is important to realize who initiated the violence. Who started it, and it certainly was not the government. We lived through this and whether you like it or not, my government took protective measures to make sure I feel safe and protected, and this goes to all Bahrainis including the protesters. Those who fought or attacked the police will get arrested or attacked back with tear gas of course as with any other country! Bahrain is a civilized country with respectable leaders up until before the protests started. How can our leadership become dictators all of a sudden? This was never their policy, nor were they known for their “brutal regime”, it actually sounds funny saying it because they exactly the opposite, they helped build Bahrain and develop to where it is today! A Huge achievement! The King himself was the one to introduce the democracy and initiated the Parliament. The opposition claimed to want democracy but did the opposite, shunned our voices and followed their political agenda which was influenced by foreign interests.
However, this the latest news is that the Al-Wefaq society have finally moved on and accepted dialogue with no pre-conditions! See the FT article: http://bit.ly/j4L5pq They have also said that they support the country’s economy and anything that will help in building it back. The Formula 1 GP is the biggest event with the biggest revenue, so it is safe to say that ALL of Bahrain want the GP back!
@Ned Flanders Heya Ned! I understand where you are coming from, but the fact of the matter is, I exist, I am a Bahraini, and this is what I think. The majority of my country think in the same way. I completely respect the peaceful ones, in fact I repeatedly said that we agreed with 80% of the demands. They then started supporting violence and as my comment above described hurt and injured a lot of people, many whom have died as a result! It was very sad to see.. We are hurt for a reason, we were terrorized, we were the ones dealing with them not the Western media. The opposition aren’t exactly known for their honesty and I promise will post videos that have recently emerged that show people revealing how they fabricated and lied to the International media to portray false injuries etc.. I know it sounds unbelievable, it sure did to us, we were appalled by the level they went just to shame the government. I believe in karma and I know that we will only get what we deserve.
For more ppl who have the same views check out the #BahrainWantsF1 tag and read :) (In the article I linked check out the photo of the people in the National Gathering: http://gallery.mac.com/aliphoto#100335 – They all share the same views as me) Not agreeing with me is absolutely perfect, but saying my opinion doesn’t mean anything is not true because our voice does exist.
@Icthyes I hope that if we don’t get the race it is not because of safety, but because of the complicated logistics and hassle of trying to fit everything in. I do understand Ross Brawn’s point of not having enough staff or holiday, etc… But for the teams it is still an extra race, and assuming that Vettel doesn’t run away with the championship, it can give teams some vital points. For us fans it’ll be great to have a longer F1 season as well.. Let’s hope the best for all happens.. You never know maybe we do go racing in the outer circuit one day. The BIC have always been keen on trying to improve the spectacle and introduced the new bit last year, realizing it didn’t work, they were going to go back to the old track. This just shows how willing they are to change for the better..
@Zadak That’s the spirit! Thank you so much Sir. I hope we get it back whenever we can, and if this year is feasible we would like ti because we’ve lost so much already and it will give us a strong economic boost that will benefit everybody. Attending the race itself will be a great way to bring us together :)
@Asanator I assure you, no one whipped me! Lol maybe you should check #BahrainWantsF1 and see how many ppl support the GP and see for yourself, we can’t all be whipped.. Also check out the link in my reply to Ned of the massive crowds, they certainly cannot all be whipped..
@Prisoner Monkeys Thank you so much PM for valuing my opinion and say. I’m sure Ned didn’t mean it in that manner. Even though ppl all don’t agree with me, I’m just asking to acknowledge that this view point exists here in Bahrain, these are the facts whether you like them or not :) The majority are moving on towards reforms, even the opposition have now agreed on dialogue and supporting economic progress. These reports of attacks are not all necessarily true, yesterday as the protestrs were tweeting about the army “killing” them, people drove around in Bahrain to the same regions only to find them completely quiet and normal! I’m just saying keep an open mind. :) (Sorry PM this is not addressed to you personally, I just defending why you should take my opinion into consideration, thanks again for your “like”)
@BasCb The expert on Bahrain :) Of course I consider what you have to say, and I very much enjoy my discussions with you.
As I said n the comment above, people were reporting attacks, then others took pictures of the same areas with nothing! So I simply cannot believe those stories until I see them with my own eyes. Maybe there were a few, but not to the extent of deaths or injuries. Let me tell you a story BasCB, when they cleared the roundabout I turned my television station to Al-Alam News (which became a “Frikkin joke” because of the way they reported completely fabricated stories) to see how will they report such news. It was amazing, people started calling in saying there were Apache helicopters attacking them – Bahrain’s airforce don’t even have Apache helicopters haha!
About Qatar, there is an important think you do not know about them. We’ve always had some sort of political tension between Bahrain and Qatar. The latest legal battle was over who owns the Hawar Islands, we eventually won the case, but they got access to huge gas fields. Basically, the Al-Jazeera TV station is owned by a member of the Qatari royal family who isn’t necessarily fond of our royal family.. Otherwise, Qatar has very good relations and we have moved on from such tensions and now are in good relations, but old feuds still secretly remain with some people.
The PM did not bring foreign troops, they were the Peninsula Shield from the GCC who act exactly like our NATO forces. During the Kuwait war, the Bahraini part of the Peninsula Shield fought against the invading Iraqis in 1990. Any country of the GCC in need of help may use the Peninsula shield forces, and these forces become under the command of the hosting country. So the are all not foreign, they follow exactly what the Bahraini forces tell them to do. They certainly were not an invasion. No one here sees them like that! Just to give you an example of how happy the people were with the Saudi and Emiratis for sending their troops to restore security and safety, we celebrated “Green Day” in honor of Saudi Arabia, and “White Day” in honor of the UAE. If I find pictures I will post, Everyone was decked out in Saudi/Emirati flags, badges, banners, posters, you name it. It was a nice way of thanking them and showing our appreciation to them.
About dialogue, please remember who refused to enter dialogue? It was the opposition! We were all begging them to start the dialogue and end the anarchy and chaos, but no, they continued to refuse…for a whole month! In that month I’m pretty sure the Bahraini population aged a couple of years, and many became insomniacs. The opposition first put certain conditions to enter dialogue, then HRH the Crown Prince agreed to discuss all their demands, but still they refused! This was when we all started to get impatient and fed up, and when they turned openly violent and had to be stopped otherwise we would be fighting a civil war..
About the Iranian/Hezbolla affiliations you have to read a bit of history and background information about the regime in Iran and the Shia religion to see how they are all related. (too political and messy) If they really wanted change they should have agreed to dialogue, and not resort to violence, this was our objection, not the protesting but the manner they did it in.
I hope we try and solve this with dialogue ASAP, and be able to move on from this. I know this was bad, but I’m sure it is a blessing in disguise because when we emerge we will do so as a much stronger citizens.
@Ned Flanders Aww don’t worry Ned! I know you didn’t mean it in that way :) I completely respect your views and would probably say the same thing if I was in your place. But I know that the opposition are the ones who have the human rights association, and have not been quite honest in their reports, and have omitted so many cases because they don’t suit their “story”. A biggest testimony is when the Pakistani injured men tried to contact the HR society to report the abuse they got from the protesters, the HR society did not answer them! Sunnis are also not even represented. This is why we don’t trust them, what HR society decides who deserves to be represented based on their sect or following? There society doesn’t even have a valid registration in Bahrain, yet have managed to reach out to all of the International ones.
@smifaye Lol thank you, it sure is heated! Thank you for realizing that you need for info to judge and for keeping an open mind :) When I think of F1 or course that is not important, but the GP is the most important international event Bahrain holds. We need the GP to happen not for the spectacle itself, but for the economic benefits that Bahrain is in desperate need for! Hotels, restaurants, shops, companies, etc.. have all lost substantial amounts and bringing the Gp back will help the economy back to life. This is why we are fighting to have it back. It’s more of a serious need than an entertainment one.
@Red Andy Lol poor Ned, thank you for defending me but I’m sure he meant well. Thank you really for taking the time to read it and think about it. That’s a very interesting point you make Andy, about people not being pro F1 because of the Bahrain Circuit or because they don’t like being in the ME! It is no secret that the F1 community aren’t exactly fans of the Bahrain GP which is why they think it can easily be disposed. Imagine if this were Monaco, Spa, or Silverstone, we would see more people being pro or at least more supportive. Thank you so much for your kind wishes Andy, it is quite refreshing to read such a supportive opinion – I’m afraid I got used to the bashing that a nice comment feels quite good, so thank you for that :)
@LL Jehto It is a great thorough article indeed, but the videos that were used are just from youtube. We have all seen them before here, so they are not made specifically for that article.
To answer some of your questions: Bahrain has a bit of democracy in the sense that it has a Parliament, and is a form of a constitutional monarchy like the UK, accept that the ruling family have more legislative power.
Most people are happy with the monarchy, some want to reduce their power, and only very few want to remove them from power.
In Bahrain the HR are politicized and used for sectarian purposes, see my 2nd comment to Ned. The HR have completely ignored some people and represented those that fit into their agenda. See the video about the Pakistanis in the article, they were completely ignored by the BCHR (the opposition’s HR organization)!
Thank you realizing the issue is more complex and needs time to figure out where you stand on this3rd June 2011, 6:51 at 6:51 am #170642BasCBParticipant
Hi LAK, I enjoy the debate as well, although I would be rather happier if we could debate the merits of the new engine format for 2013 or what layout to use for the Bahrain GP when/if it eventually returns to the calendar.
While I fully accept, the region is complicated, has historical struggles and current political views between the countries (what region doesn’t, by the way), that does not mean that there are no parallels.
Interesting to hear about previous disagreements between Bahrain and Quatar. But the simple fact AlJazeera Arab did partly report different things from the english version shows its owners and backers are afraid of the uprising in your country to spread to theirs. That is the main reason why you now have GCC forces in your country.
Not to help you, but to help the established rule stay in power in the whole region. If Bahrain security forces lead them, then you can be sure your own forces are involved in very questionable deeds.
The simple fact many of your fellow Bahraini have now knowledge of the current violence is understandable. How big a part of the population under an oppressive regime do you think actually gets into contact with the opprestion. From experience in other situations, I would say possibly about 15-20%.
And ask yourself, what time there was given to actually start the discussion your HRH the Crown Prince announced in March? Weren’t the main political opposition almost immediately disbanded and partly imprisoned for supporting the protests? The same is true for many human rights activists and critical bloggers. So who would really get to sit down with the government then.
Another matter is, what was there to discuss. With the PM staying in office and ruling out almost all reforms beforehand, what would have been the matters open for debate? Have you heard any plans by the government to put some issues on the table that could be opened up? If yes, I would be very glad to hear so, as they were somehow lost in the violent messages after no talks were started.
Yes, I do hope you can get a start towards discussions, and get back to improving life for all in Bahrain. But to make sense the people now imprisoned should have part in them. And it needs a serious agenda of what can be changed.
For example, what would you think can be changed? Certainly you did you discuss and think about that in the past months with your closest.3rd June 2011, 7:22 at 7:22 am #170643LAKParticipant
@US_Peter Thank you Peter for your appreciation as I’m sure you can relate to the fact that I want F1 back in my country as a F1 fan but more importantly, defending my country. It is normal for my opinions to appear to be a somewhat biased in comparison to your views because this is my country and you don’t feel the same way, so can be more objective. I know the BahrainIndependent.com blog may not be independent an international sense, but within Bahrain it is written by mainly by bloggers, and well known people on twitter who have played active roles in the social media scene in Bahrain. So it is a nice way of seeing how Bahrainis think :)
The majority of the protesters when asked what do they mean about “downing the regime” have no answer to what it exactly means! Some saw it as lessening the power of the ruling family only, while others want to remove the ruling family, and some were supportive of the ruling family and just wanted reforms. Yes they want democracy, but it is tainted with sectarianism. The Shia religious clerics politicized religion and see the protest as an obligatory chore they have to do or else be judged and harassed. So some of the protesters went out in fear.. About the HR organizations check out the comment above..
Thank you for your well wishes. Hope the dialogue is successful too, but the vibe now feels good and people seem to be ready. The last few months, the people were too traumatized, too hurt, too scarred to even think of dialogue again. But now as the days passed by, it became more and more desired, and now after HM the King set the date for dialogue, we all feel hopeful!
See ya at the Canadian GP live blog! :)
@Ned Flanders Oh I’m not saying that the government did no mistakes, just not as grave as the people against them. HRH the Crown Prince himself said both sides are at fault. The first attack on the roundabout which lead to the 3rd and 4rth deaths was uncalled for. If it wasn’t for that the situation wouldn’t have worsened. But it happened that way, which is why the Crown Prince himself went to the TV station interrupted a live show to announce the withdrawal of the army which was a very bold and righteous move. If I can find a link to the King’s latest two speeches you would see how much he makes sense. Our leadership are great people who men well and literally serve us with sincerity, during this crisis they have been misrepresented big time. Just keep an open mind Ned because you can never see the way i see things because I am Bahraini and have experienced this first hand. Thank you for your honest comments, I don’t think you’d agree with me anytime soon, but maybe just say whether I understand them or not there are many in Bahrain who think like LAK :) That would be an awesome start.. Siding with the protesters is always the easy and obvious side to take..
@xtophe I completely agree with your point in that the government should allow reporters in so that they can see the real picture. The problem was n the beginning the situation was very bad after the government’s mistake of the first attack that plus the opposition’s exaggerated reports as if there were a real massacre going on was too damaging for Bahrain. So they then took a protective measure not to allow a lot of press, but they did allow many to cover the story. Now they are still restrictive, but I think not as much as before. This will slowly ease as the situation becomes better.
About the “Arab Spring” the media definitely put us all in the same cookie cutter, which was why after Egypt and Tunisia, people automatically supported the Bahrain protests because they thought we were the same! The people never really had an issue with the leadership like this, so all this hidden hate was horrible for it to all come out. The King said in his latest speech, “I abhor sectarianism” which is very true as he never differentiated between ppl based on their sect or background. Thank you xtophe for such interesting and important comments.
@Ads21 Thank you for your comment and views :) To be honest I was very worried of going back to square one on June 1st, (other than the supposed attacks) everything was calm and quiet, and as I said lots drove around to see for themselves and said that those reports were false. Keith posted an article in the round-up that they’ve lifted the ban. Many people have recently entered Bahrain, and we feel here that the country is getting back to normal. The set date for dialogue is also promising, and the fact that the opposition are joining in is a sign of recovery.
@Maciek I know they may sound a bit farfetched specially as an outsider, but this sadly happened, check out the medical report here http://blog.bahrainindependent.com/2011/05/20/medecins-sans-frontieres-msf-partiality-of-reporting-in-the-kingdom-of-bahrain-a-counter-report/. As I said in my comment above in reply to xtophe that the first attack should not have happened as it escalated things.
About the press I fully agree, I think they were just taking protective measures, but the problem is that it hurt us a lot for not having a more transparent media.
I think it is quite unfair to call someone’s contributions “a bad running joke”. He is entitled to have his views, and is one of the few that did not attack me and acknowledged my point of view. Great questions :)
@JCCJCC Propaganda is the magic answer to every false news report, accept it is not the government’s news, it is the opposition. Here are a few: The concept of having a peaceful facade, and always
screaming ‘peaceful’ if approached by an army, but when needed to, they held their flowers in one hand with the knives/swords in the other. The idea of flowers was used in Iran a long time ago and were given to the police to stress on their so called peacefulness. They copied a certain car horn like hezbolla that they honk o a particular tune. The wordings of their slogans and chants are all carefully studied and chosen to make the most international impact, I could write a whole post on this matter but I’m no expert..
When I say the GP supports the people I don’t mean the entertainment or racing factor, I meant how beneficial it is for the country. How people who have businesses got really affected and this is the way of regaining what they lost. it will also be a great way to bring us together as sports have this ability to do so. Thank you for the questions!
@sato113 I’m not saying don’t believe them, just keep an open mind, and listen to our view too as after all we are the Bahraini people you are all supporting :)3rd June 2011, 7:55 at 7:55 am #170644TheVillainF1Member
LAK, nobody refutes that the opposition has also done horrible things, but that doesn’t efface on obvious government crackdown. Even if it were so, how does your citing of these horrible actions by ‘opposition members’ strengthen your point that it is safe for F1 to return to Bahrain? It is foolish to accuse all foreign media outlets to be in some sort of conspiracy against Bahrain and dismiss their reports. Citing violence by protesters does not debuke the accusation against government violence, it merely deflects the issue.
If violence like that is going on within the country, regardless of who’s behind it, I doubt the F1 circus will feel much at ease in Bahrain, let alone be insured to go over there. Let’s face it, F1 will not let the Bahrain decision depend on the degree of democracy in the country, they will decide based on whether they are sufficiently assured that the F1 crowd will not have a single problem related to the upheavals when in the country. Citing violence of any sort is unlikely to prove it’s safe for F1 to go to Bahrain, especially since you depict these protesters as lawless, cruel and irrational beings, what guarantees does F1 have they would not be subject to violence from these people?3rd June 2011, 9:15 at 9:15 am #170645Mouse_NightshirtParticipant
I feel somewhat aggrieved by the whole doctor thing.
There are an exceptionally small number of doctors out there who make personal issues a barrier to treating patients and I, as yet, have yet to meet a single one. On the whole, doctors infallibly treat the injured and this goes for most countries across the globe. As with anything, you’ll have your bad eggs, but they most certainly won’t be restricted to one side.
I have not seen a single report of the hospital doctors refusing to treat patients in the Arab spring, from Libya, let alone Bahrain, other than from hyperbolic government press releases. It is a fundamental violation of the oaths we take and I think it’s something many non-medics can’t ever quite get to grips with – for the vast majority, we hold those principles extremely highly, it’s our raison d’être.
To go on to suggest that hospital doctors are trying to fake injuries I find even more unbelievable.
I read the Médicins Sans Frontiers article with great interest. As a bit of background, MSF is a strictly secular NGO staffed by doctors and nurses from all over the world who go to poor or unstable regions to provide healthcare to those who otherwise don’t have access. I found the following particularly galling.
MSF first had a team on the ground in Bahrain two days after protests began in February. Despite the gaps in the provision of care for people wounded in clashes, MSF has been unable to deploy to its full capacity in addressing this issue due to the military crackdown on patients and health facilities.
Now I’m sorry LAK, but in my experience, MSF is infallibly honest in its observations. It criticises whoever is at fault, which includes western democracies if it feels they are a cause.
From your article:
“Bahraini doctors have held the highest regard and respect for MSF (1999 Noble Peace Prize) and that is why most doctors pressured the Bahraini Ministry of Health to allow MSF to work freely and without supervision trusting in their impartial stance. It has been a huge disappointment following the publication of their recent report since it was clear they had an agenda which was extremely bias in nature.”
MSF was not free to work, which is a terrible indictment of the government, don’t you think? It’s a NGO with no interest other than the injured. To say otherwise suggests that either the article writer knows nothing about MSF, or alternatively they are twisting events and basically making up rubbish.
And at the end of the day, there is absolutely no justification whatsoever for the repeated reports of doctors being assaulted and detained by the Bahraini government. These people are there for your people, in a way your government clearly isn’t being.3rd June 2011, 9:37 at 9:37 am #170646MaciekParticipant
LAK – the article you linked to here says many things, but none of them convincing. Why in the world would Médecins Sans Frontières http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/allcontent.cfm?id=243, a not-for-profit, global, humanitarian organization made up of people whose life-goal is to ensure the widest possible access to health-care in the world’s most disrupted regions falsely report on anything to do with health-care?
The Bahraini Independent is just not a believable source. When you use phrasings like: “The SMC hospital was taken over by a terrorist cell of minority Bahraini medical personnel with terrorist, politically guided (and funded) sectarian links to overseas governments and their hooligan rioters following the sad events of the 14th of February 2011.”, well I’m sorry, but that just reads like it was taken from a Soviet manual on denunciation of ‘imperialist’ provocations with current place names and dates thrown in. And this is also and especially true of all claims that ‘international opinion is misrepresenting’ what is really going on. One question – why?
Perhaps Bahrain truly did function for a long time as a happy, enlightened autocracy. Unfortunately, the thing about monarchy and autocracy is that inevitably the veneer of peacefulness cracks when the people on whose backs it sits begin to say enough. I can’t claim to intimately know all the particular social, ethnic, religious, political and economic factors at play in Bahrain today. But I do know that when a national system is formally based on the belief that one set of people are by birth meant to rule and others to obey, no matter how benevolent some rulers may be, in the end what that implies is that some are by birth better and worth more and wiser and more noble than others. Which in turn inevitably implies that those in power feel justified – nay, they have a duty – to summarily dismiss any opposition to their rule. There surely is a reason why a country as tiny as Bahrain has so many ongoing prosecutions of journalists accused of defamation. http://www.google.com/cse?cx=014303836386455122809%3Aebtklgncq-w&q=defamation&sa=Search&cof=FORID%3A0 Liberal democracies aren’t perfect by any means, but it’s a question of degree.
So at least until your government opens the country’s doors to outside observation, my benefit of the doubt will unfailingly fall on the side of those who question it. And on the promised planned dialogue: anyone who has had an even cursory glance at how protest is dealt with by authoritarian government will agree that until this dialogue actually happens and proves to be something else than a staged PR coup where the king benevolently listens to carefully selected ‘criticism’ while actually stepping up the silencing of legitimate opposition, well, let’s say I’ll believe it when I see it.3rd June 2011, 10:23 at 10:23 am #170647DoanceParticipant
I say that there is no point rescheduling the race this year because it will just mess up the calender while they can easily wait a few more months until March next year and host the first GP of the year.3rd June 2011, 10:30 at 10:30 am #170648Ned FlandersParticipant
LAK- I’m amazed by your ability to stay polite and friendly despite everything, and kudos for that, but nothing you have wrote so far convinces me. In fact, as others have already implied, it reads a bit like propaganda. You’re showing a callous disregard for the suffering of your fellow Bahraini’s.
I find it a bit demeaning that we’re still debating the rights and wrongs of the regime’s actions. I assumed that had ceased to be a necessary topic for discussion many months ago….3rd June 2011, 13:28 at 1:28 pm #170649AnonymousInactive
@LAK: “but the videos that were used are just from youtube. We have all seen them before here, so they are not made specifically for that article.”
well, you’re saying that, but do you really know that? But it doesn’t even matter if they were made or not for the article. What is pretty clear for who reads the article and watches the videos is that they were both made with the same purpose and within the same agenda: propaganda.
You seem like a genuinely nice guy (the patience you had to had to answer all these people, oh boy) and seem to believe in all that, but you don’t seem to have the experience, us westerners have about these issues of propagandized governmental agendas. You know what the article reminded me? George W Bush and his defence of the Iraq War in early 2003. The same kind of tactics applied by his regime propaganda machine. And even you use them, by changing the focus of the big picture to individual situations that only you (and your sources) say it’s true, which made me wonder if you’re really that naive (but then again, that’s the reason media manipulation and propaganda is so efective: it’s very easy to fall for it and begin repeating what they say).
Point is most of the people on this side know better and tend to not accept something just because is written on an article. There’s many books and movies about this phenomenon, most notably, if you wish to enrich yourself in the subject, Noam Chomsky and Michael Moore.
“Bahrain has a bit of democracy”, well, maybe people want full democracy and that’s why they were protesting.
“Most people are happy with the monarchy, some want to reduce their power, and only very few want to remove them from power.”, maybe then, if they are allowed to choose by vote, if it is like you are saying, it will be no different, right? In democracy, what most people want is what stands..
“In Bahrain the HR are politicized and used for sectarian purposes”
Once again I’ll resort to experience. It tells me, retrospectively, when we look back, that they (the Human Rights Organizations) were the ones that were saying the true and the governments were to ones lying. Again, the example of Iraq. It’s just what happened. Do you think this is not true?
Just in case you never heard about this, I’ll resume. The UN, who was inspecting Iraq for Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) were saying none were found, they needed more time, but it’s unlikely Iraq had them. The U.S. government said they knew Iraq had WMD, they had the prove, they had found them, showed some satelite pictures in a powerpoint and didn’t even address what the UN were saying. By repeating this exaustively in articles of the type “just-like-the-one-you-showed-us”, on TV, on every mass media, convinced the American public and went to war against the Iraq. 8 years later, still no WMD were found. And a country is destroyed with its millions of people (inclunding children) suffering the horrors of War. Do you see where I’m getting?
So, we tend to trust the International Organizations, non-governmental ones, preferably. And some news agencys that in the past made name for themselves by not “following the wave” and reporting the truth and respecting the basic principles of the journalism.
Unfortunately, it seems that all this talk is pointless, because when this http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/bahrain-police-open-fire-on-protesters/story-e6frf7jx-1226068976316
is reported, this:
is decided. And for those who believed that maybe FIA had taken in March a moral stand it’s wake up time.
you’ll have your precious GP. hope is worth it.
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