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Supporting Bahrainis = Supporting the GP – The Latest On Bahrain

Viewing 14 posts - 61 through 74 (of 74 total)
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  • #170681
    Prisoner Monkeys
    Participant

    Those appear to be tear gas canisters. And there’s a lot that you can;t see out of shot – you can see the security forces firing, but you cannot see what they are firing at.

    #170682
    Scribe
    Participant

    Just what is your problem PM, you sound like a “journalist” on Fox.

    Tear gas canisters don’t explode like that, people don’t tend to have to run away from tear gas like the people who you can see in shot, if people shoot tear gas at you, sniff half an onion and cover your face, I’ve never seen tear gas inspire such all consuming terror.

    Regardless, even if they are tear gas canisters and I’m aware there’s a reasonable chance there might be, why are the security forces shooting at a group of people who apear entirley peacefull before the first shot is fired? If the security forces of a country are carrying out such measures, how can it possibly be safe to hold a grand prix there?

    etc blah etc, anyone can comment upon evidence in away that tilts what people take from it just as they can ask questions to get the right or no answer, a biased reporters best friend but everyone is guilty of the practice. I just think that if you look at this situation from a neutral perspective you’ll see that there’s no hope of the Grand Prix not being a political tool for someone whatever we do, so can we at least not let it be the tool of these despots.

    #170683
    Prisoner Monkeys
    Participant

    Tear gas canisters don’t explode like that

    They do upon erupting from the barrel. That’s what muzzle flash is – superheated fumes from the firing of propellant igniting on contact with air. It happens to all weapons. Since tear gas canisters are larger and heavier than bullets, they require more force to propel them, which in turn creates more exhaust gasses.

    I’ve never seen tear gas inspire such all consuming terror.

    While tear gas is accepted as a non-lethal form of crowd control, it can – unfortunately – kill. It works by irrtating the mucous membranes in the eyes and throat, prompting people to seek clear air. But if someone has an existing medical condition, the effects can be exacerbated. Likewise, if tear gas is fired in a confined space or a space where there is limited access however well-ventilated (thus prolonging exposure), people can be ofer-exposed to it and its effects. There is evidence that suggests this happened when the security forces cleared out the Pearl Roundabout earlier this year, fuelling speculation that the government was using chemical weapons on its people. Stories of the effects of tear gas have likely spread, prompting people to flee.

    why are the security forces shooting at a group of people who apear entirley peacefull before the first shot is fired?

    Look at where the first shots are fired. Then follow the trajectory of later shots. The security forces are clearly firing at something out of frame.

    I just think that if you look at this situation from a neutral perspective you’ll see that there’s no hope of the Grand Prix not being a political tool for someone whatever we do, so can we at least not let it be the tool of these despots.

    Read all your arguments again. It’s quite clear that by calling for the Powers That Be to “not let it be the tool of these despots”, you are turning the race into the very political tool you are trying to keep it from becoming.

    #170684
    Asanator
    Participant

    I’m not going to delve into the morals of what we, as a sport, should or shouldn’t be doing or even whether we are getting accurate reports of what is going on.

    I love F1 as I am sure we all do here, I’d love there to be a Bahrain GP just because it is another race, I’d prefer a potentially dull race than no race at all (even though I actually quite like the circuit!)

    HOWEVER, If the country wasn’t safe to go racing in at the start of the year, how is it safe to go racing there now? As far as I can see, nothing has changed in the interim! so the FIA’s (not Bernie) decision baffles me!

    #170685
    BasCB
    Participant

    PM, thanks for the lecture on tear gas, I think your explanation there is to the point.

    But this has become political since the Bahrain government are heavily involved in staging the race. And have detained and had fired a significant amount of people who work for the circuit. Not to mention that with this being seen to be really important for the country the opposition is focussing on it for political reasons as well.

    There is not that much “making it political” we can add here any more.

    And ongoing heavyhanded actions against any forms of people on the streets in groups is doing nothing towards showing the world how safe Bahrain is.

    #170686
    Prisoner Monkeys
    Participant

    Wasn’t meant to be a lecture. Sorry.

    #170687
    MemorableC
    Participant
    #170688
    US_Peter
    Participant

    To suggest at this point that the FIA, FOM, and FOTA can make decisions that are not political is just naive. Surely if the safety of all teams, drivers, journalists, photographers, and fans can’t be guaranteed, then this is all just a moot talking point. Beyond that, no matter what decision the FIA made it was going to be political. Arguably the choice they made was more political than had they simply decided to cancel the race on grounds of safety, or by saying there was no room to fit it in the already packed calendar. By making the decision they did, they’ve bowed to the almighty dollar and provided a brutally oppressive government with a PR tool to try and glam up their image to the outside world. Regardless of which side of this argument you come down on, there is no longer an apolitical choice for Formula 1.

    #170689
    Scribe
    Participant

    They do upon erupting from the barrel. That’s what muzzle flash is – superheated fumes from the firing of propellant igniting on contact with air. It happens to all weapons. Since tear gas canisters are larger and heavier than bullets, they require more force to propel them, which in turn creates more exhaust gasses.

    You missunderstand me, an I think you know it, all high calibre projectile explode from the barrel, however, tear gas canisters do not explode on the ground as the first shot fired in the film did, nothing designed to be inherantly non-lethal would, for completley obvious reasons.

    I have been in a situation where tear gas has been fired. It does not explode on the ground like that, it is fairly terrifying, however it is well understood by most people who might be protesting, or even, standing around on the street as appears to be happening in the video.

    Now if you look at the trajectory of the shots, the first exploding canister that we see, lands in the crowd, makes them run then they fire after them. I don’t beleive the video needs be dismissed by the fact it doesn’t pan right.

    Read all your arguments again. It’s quite clear that by calling for the Powers That Be to “not let it be the tool of these despots”, you are turning the race into the very political tool you are trying to keep it from becoming.

    No, again I beleive that’s deliberatley misunderstanding my point. I beleive that any action in a situation such as this is deeply political. So my argument is that we mustn’t race in Bahrain as it would be legitimising the actions of Bahrain government in both there reaction to the crisis and in generall. Not racing condems them, I don’t want our sport to be political one, but the issue has been forced, so I hope the support makes the right choice.

    #170690
    Prisoner Monkeys
    Participant

    I don’t beleive the video needs be dismissed by the fact it doesn’t pan right.

    Watch again. The initial group of protestors are on the far side of the street. But the security forces are lined up the length of the street. Those nearest to the camera do not fire in the direction of the protesters on the far side – they fire parallel to the street. It’s entirely possible that the protesters crossed the street once they were out of frame, but it’s also entirely possible that they were a part of a much larger mob further down the street.

    I’m not denying that the security forces fired on a group of unarmed protesters. I’m just trying to demonstrate that there’s a lot going on that we can’t see – and that what we can’t see could very well change the meaning and the context of what we can see in this video. People were outraged when the secuirty forces fired on protesters with tear gas at the Pearl Roundabout earlier this year. But from all accounts, police officers were injured and possibly killed before tear gas was used. That’s not something you often associate with a peaceful protest. So don’t blame the security forces. Blame the people behind them giving orders.

    #170691
    Asanator
    Participant

    I don’t really see why people keep complaining that it is only going ahead ‘for the money’. I am fairly sure that Bernie’s contract with the circuit/government would have been pretty nailed down and that he would still have been paid whether the race was held or not on the original date. It is not F1’s fault that the race couldn’t be held originally and it’s not like the Bahrain government is short of a few bob!

    Yes he may have lost the trackside signage money and the take from the gate (which I think the circuit gets anyway) not that they get huge crowds anyway, but I doubt F1 or Bernie has lost out much either way.

    #170692
    Icthyes
    Participant

    Sorry Asanator, but that’s not right. Bernie refunded the money to Bahrain back in February and reports said it could have been as much as $60m. So that’s how much they’re making out of going back.

    http://google-news-sports.blogspot.com/2011/02/bernie-ecclestone-returns-millions-to.html

    #170693
    Asanator
    Participant

    Ahhh yes, Sorry I forgot about that!

    #170694
    Scribe
    Participant

    @Prisoner Monkeys

    Well this is going round in circles so I’ll finish with this. If your trying to demonstrate it’s the government then what really is your point? That’s pretty much what those who object to the race have been saying all along. An it seems we disagree one what the video shows, but whatever, it doesn’t hold a huge amount of relavance.

Viewing 14 posts - 61 through 74 (of 74 total)
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