Hamilton stripped of Belgian GP win – another asinine FIA decision


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Felipe Massa has been given the Belgian Grand Prix win by the stewards

Lewis Hamilton has had his victory in the Belgian Grand Prix taken away from him by the Belgian Grand Prix stewards.

The stewards added 25 seconds to his race time for cutting the chicane while battling with Kimi Raikkonen, leaving him third behind Nick Heidfeld.

This is an absolute travesty of a decision which mocks the notion that the FIA stewards are fair arbiters of the sport.

Hamilton cut the chicane on lap 42 of the race while alongside Raikkonen. Raikkonen forced Hamilton off the track by swerving across the front of the McLaren. Hamilton had been entirely alongside the Ferrari going into the corner.

Hamilton then let Raikkonen past him and re-took the Ferrari driver at the following corner. Despite taking the standard course of action to let Raikkonen regain his position, the stewards have stripped Hamilton of his win.

After letting Raikkonen re-pass him, Hamilton was no closer to the Ferrari driver than he had been before they went into the chicane. I do not agree any advantage was gained by Hamilton.

I also think it is disgraceful the stewards feel Raikkonen was not at fault in forcing another driver off the track. A similar piece of driving at Eau Rouge or Blanchimont could have lethal consequences.

Whether the stewards have done this to keep the championship close or keep their friends at Ferrari happy, this is an utterly lamentable decision.

It comes only two weeks after the stewards avoided stripping Felipe Massa of a win at Valencia for a clear infringement of the rules. This very weekend we saw further evidence that decision was bogus.

It is quite clear Ferrari can rely on the FIA to give them a favourable hearing at appeals.


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Keith Collantine
Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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430 comments on “Hamilton stripped of Belgian GP win – another asinine FIA decision”

  1. Surely Mclaren will appeal this crap, I can’t believe this.

  2. I honestly think that you should change the name of this site to MCLAREN-FANATIC.com cheers

    I’m out of here

  3. Ridiculous penalty decision. That I agree on.

    But to say Kimi was at fault is as ludicrous.

  4. What a complete crock of dogs muck this decision is. What a sham of a sport.

    What is a driver meant to do if they cut the chicane? Where in the rules does it say “driver must drop back X seconds”? Would it have mattered where he had dropped in back behind Kimi?

    Someone said on the live blog that Mclaren should boycott the next round – I heartily endorse that decision.

    I might do it myself too.

  5. I am absolutly speechless….Bloody hell. This is unbelivable. In my opinion Kimi was the one who forced Lewis off track at the bus stop. Not only that but he was swerving on the start finnish straight which I though was a bit out of order. Even Massa seemed upset with Kimi for his squeeze at the beginning.

    Are the FIA actually idiots! I am unbelivably angry….Ahhhh! Stop trying to ruin the sport we all love so much with unfair and baised penalties….A farse….this will surely be overturned? Kieth?

  6. Completely agree with SAV!!
    I just logged on to get a laugh…
    You cant win anything by cheating

  7. Nobody forces you to visit this site Sav, bye bye!

  8. Absolute travesty. One of the best ends to a GP I can remember and they have to rig it to give that useless little boy Massa half a chance. If he wins the 2008 WDC he will be the least deserving holder of the title.

    Will somebody please start a credible alternative to F1 so I can follow that instead?

    1. If you dont like the results , watch something else. Massa came to within half a point at the end of the season so had he won the championship he would have deserved it

  9. Kimi did not force Hamilton off the track, Kimi had the line completely. Just because Hamilton braked late and had a wing in front means nothing, he wouldn’t have made the corner anyways. Hamilton did the same thing in France to Vettal, he should really learn how to pass…drivers aren’t supposed to pull over for you like Massa did in germany.

    Also, agree with Sav.

  10. one of the best races in years has now been spoilt by a bunch of
    lets just give the title to ferrari and be done with it and save all the trouble of the
    final five races

  11. This is BS. Sorry what is that Ferrari, you cant win fairly, you waste $50m on a driver that can drive if it is spitting and because of this your mates at the FIA penalise the most outstanding drives of the season.

    My rating on the race went from Great to poor, well done the FIA….

  12. What rubbish! The stewards should be taken out and shot! I’ve never in my many years of F1 fandom seen such an unfair, unsuportable and stupid ruling. Here’s an idea: Max should step in and overule the decision (with Whiting’s support) and thus clean up his image as the leader of the FIA.

  13. Time for some kind of petition maybe? Sack all the stewards?

  14. This is absolutely disgusting.

    I hope McLaren challenge these decisions in Court.

    After last races decision in favour of Massa, and no fine for Raikonen, despite him nearly killing one of his pit crew (and I AM NOT BUYING ALL THIS- HE”S FINE CRAP) and then the exact same pit lane release scenario being penalised yesterday- there can be no doubt about the FIA’s agenda.

    Disgusting. You will see the viewing figures decreasing as a result of this.

    No penalty for Raikonen- forcing Hamilton off the road- I see then.

    I’m furious. Hamilton should quit. It’s obvious they will never allow him to win.

  15. yeh right … if we wanna see spectacles like this we will watch WWE …
    I’m starting to wonder why Formula 1 need FIA at all …

  16. No wonder people think F1 is boring… Every time two drivers race each others, they are penalised! That’s it for me. I’ll stick with MotoGP and WTCC rest of the season.

  17. this is complete bull thay do nothing to massa but strip the win form hamilton i am a fan of massa but he is stealing points

  18. why don’t they just change the rules and make f1 a slot car racing series? it would be easier than this.

    i wish i could say i’m surprised but really, this is the way the fia have been cheapening their own sport for years and turning off the people who really love racing.

    maybe turning everyone off is their way of dumbing down their audience so eventually they won’t have to listen to the persistent criticisms they deserve.

    shane, if mclaren appeals, get ready for another disqualification. the fia has nothing to do with fairness these days and appeals have rarely gone in the favor of the team/driver even before now.

  19. I am done with F1. I might keep reading your site Keith because you seem like a nice guy but I am finished with this so-called “sport”.

  20. also checking the video again, Kimi was swerving because his back tire was about to hit lewis. Lewis never even let him fully by.

  21. Utterly shameful.

  22. Nick, I’m sorry but “Hamilton was never going to make the corner”? Please.

    He had already made the right-hand part of the corner quite easily. And the fact that he would have been able to make the left-hand part of the corner is proved by the fact that he took an even tighter line to avoid Raikkonen’s swerve.

    He was clearly in control of the car.

  23. Sav is wrong, this is not MCLAREN-FANATIC.com it is LEWIS-FANATIC.com.

  24. Forgot to add a smiley :)

    But seriously, I don’t think I’ll be watching Monza. Can’t wait to see (or rather, read about) what kind of injustices will happen when they’re on the red home soil.

  25. Yeah, I agree. McLaren and Lewis shouldn’t just accept this. If the decision is overruled, they should think of pulling out. Otherwise, frankly, Ferrari will be allowed to win the WDC under just about any pretext.

    Lewis had the edge on the first corner of the chicane, Kimi nudged him off (Kovi having been punished for a worse version of the same in the same race!), Lewis duly ceded the position. As the rules state. Do they say anything else, like, don’t immediately try to race again????! He was then struck (again!) by Kimi at La Source. Given he then stayed on track while Kimi spun off, the event had no bearing on the eventual race positions either.

    Sham. Angry, angry, angry.

  26. Those making comments about me being a Hamilton fan have very short memories. I thought his Magny-Cours penalty was entirely correct, for example.

    If you think the stewards verdict today was correct I’d like to hear why, because it makes no sense to me, for the reasons I’ve explained above.

  27. Shocked and disappointed. I think the stewards have ruined a great race and it is getting a little more than coincedential how much McLaren are penalised in comparison to the boys in red. I mean Kimi didn’t even finish so where is the advantage?

    Having said that after taking time to consider the decision it is pretty clear that if Lewis would of followed Kimi round the corner there is no way he would of been so close to his gearbox on that straight, so in that sense he gained an advantage. I’d like to see the exact wording of the rulebook on this one.

    As a fan I’d like to have seen the result stand, but seeing F1 as a business, and a sport with rules, I have to say by the letter of the law I imagine Hami broke the rules. So in that sense it is fair.

    The question is, would it of been the same decision if the colour of the cars were reversed?

  28. Here is the ruling:

    Nicholas Deschaux, Surinder Thatthi and Yves Bacquelaine, your mothers must be so proud
    And don’t forget Mosley’s political commissar Alan Donnelly

    Remember Surinder Thatthi’s views on facial hair?

    Nasir Hoosein wasn’t even involved, wonder what had happened if he was ;)

  29. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70404

    McLaren to appeal …
    Hamilton was 6km/h slower than Kimi start finish line according to McLaren:
    “A McLaren spokesman said: “We looked at all our data and also made it available to the FIA stewards. It showed that, having lifted, Lewis was 6km/h slower than Kimi as they crossed the start/finish line.”

  30. ****ing ****s. Seriously, if the FIA, Bernie, and all the rest of them don’t sort out the sport that they ru(i)n, I’m going to stop wasting every other weekend on their Formula.

    It’s going to be no better when Jean Todt possibly takes over as the FIA top bloke, the Ferrari bias will rocket off of the scale.

    Hurry up someone and create a breakaway series with decent tracks, fair and consistant rules, and cars that can follow each other closer than 2 seconds apart.

  31. Like most of you on here, I’m absolutely gobsmacked that Ferrari had the nerve to launch an official complaint. Their lame **** Fin stuck he car in the car in the wall and probably would have done without Lewis putting pressure on.

    For all of you who disaprove of McLaren and Lewis and rib this quality site for their support just remember it is a .co.uk website and both are brits. As an Englishman, I can’t remember the last time I supported Italy in the world cup!!!!

    The sooner the FIA is disbanded and replaced by an unbiased organisation the better.

    Great race turned to **** by gifting it Massa, the same as it would have been unfair to gift Valencia to Lewis.

  32. I think Hamilton did exactly the right thing. He restored the status quo ante, as the lawyers say. What more do you expect him to do — toss rose petals in Kimi’s path as he flashes by?

    This penalty is ridiculous (and I’m no Hamilton fan) and the stewards should be censured.

    Is there any kind of training scheme for stewards, like there is for referees?

  33. Guys I think GrandPrix.com sum up the how the whole of F1 world perceives the FIA’s terribly inconsistant decision making.

    “More important than the decision itself was the reaction to it in Formula 1 circles. There was a very clear weariness as it simply adds to the widely-held belief that Ferrari is always favoured by the decision-makers, particularly if McLaren is involved. The FIA says this is not the case, but such denials are treated with scant credibility by those in the F1 business, who have seen too many decisions that appear to have the same outcome. The big question after Spa is not whether the decisions was right or wrong – it is entirely possible that the FIA Court of Appeal will overturn it. This may help to give the Court of Appeal a little more credibility”


    For those posting on here suggesting there is a bias on this web site, please grow up and learn to debate constructively, not like little children.

  34. Hamilton did gain position by illegal thing but the penalty is cleary unfair for him. I think that is very bad to the sport to gain an points and wins in “green table”. The same thing I spoke about the Massa and today. Let them race on the track…

  35. Keith, I’d like to bring something to your attention, I found this footage from 1979 band I really think the FIA should revisit this! It’s Gilles villeneuve vs Renè Arnoux and they are RACING! The FIA should not stand for this. I expect penalties to be enforced and results to be retracted.

  36. Well done FIA. The best race for years, and they have soured it with an absolutely ridiculous decision which yet again makes F1 look stupid in front of the world’s media.

    Forget a bias towards Ferrari, I think FIA are trying to boost viewing figures for A1GP and IRL with this sort of sham decision quite frankly.

  37. What a joke. I’ve been a fan of Formula One for years, but if this decision stands I’ll never watch another Grand Prix until the current stewards, Bernie, and Max are all replaced. What a joke. I also used to like Kimi, but some of his actions during this race have changed my opinion of him also. Dribble… Utter dribble!

  38. All that needs to be said has been said. An absolute shocker of a decision – I am completely speechless.

    As a fan who is going to watch the Singapore grand prix (and spend a shedload of cash) i am worried that the stewards will intervene to “ruin” the race for the benefit of Ferrari.

    I’m not sure if I can ever watch another F1 grand prix again. F1 is more fixed than WWE

  39. Remember Japan 2005, when Alonso cut the chicane trying to pass Klien. He let him past, then passed him at the next turn, but was told by the stewards to let Klien back past because they felt that Alonso didn’t drop back enough the first time around.

    Almost identical to this one.

    And yes, I also think Hamilton’s penalty was unjustified as well.

  40. Well, that’s it, I’ve had enough of this so called sport….. After Massa got off scott-free for an obvious rule infringement at Valencia, I didn’t think things could get much worse. How naive was I! I’ve already watched the incident 3 times, and I can’t see what Hamilton did wrong. He clearly let Kimi go by along the straight before overtaking again at turn 1… The FIA are a disgrace if this stands.

  41. i feel cheated
    i feel treated like an idiot

  42. What was the name of this organisation- FIA or FIAT? ;-) I really don’t get it – do these people have faces? How do they sleep at night?

  43. If Massa wins the driver’s championship, he will feel like a sucker for FIA literally handing him over the trophy by penalizing every one else.

  44. I can’t believe how people are adding comments as if Kimi had the faster car.

    Surely Hamilton let Kimi take the place back, and overtook on the next corner. That is my simplified view that surely most occasional viewers would agree with?

    Unless there is a very clear explanation, of a move possibly off-camera, the sport has signed its death warrant.

  45. I’m not a Ferrari fan, but I really don’t like Hamilton either. Even so, this penalty does seem a little harsh, although I do think that Hamilton failed to give the place back properly, so perhaps some reprimand would’ve been more appropriate. Perhaps a big fine…? Anyway, it could all be overturned in a few weeks, so let’s not get too irate just yet.

    I think this appears worse though because there is still so much chatter about the pitlane fine that Ferrari received at Valencia. The GP2 pitlane incidents in Valencia and Spa have been deemed more dangerous than that of Massa because they were in the middle of the pitlane – Massa was at the end and the only danger was the safety and medical cars (the cameraman was in no more danger than usual really, he was well out of the way), whereas the mechanics jumped out of the way to avoid Senna yesterday afternoon. Just a bit of speculation.

  46. The issue is not how close to Kimi Hamilton was before going into the chicane compared to after it, but how close Hamilton would have been had he braked and taken the second part of the Bus Stop properly and not cut the corner.

    It would be physically impossible for Hamilton to have been as close to Kimi going into La Source had Hamilton not cut the second part of the Bus Stop, and as such Hamilton did clearly still have an advantage from cutting the corner, despite him letting Kimi back through. As such, I for one am wholly in support of the FIA’s decision to penalise Hamilton, as are a number of McLaren fans I know.

  47. Keith,

    I understand you are not happy; it has been a great end of the race, yet, I do believe Hamilton has again failed for not staying calmed…second position was again perfectly OK for his World Championship (we could say, “he was racing Felipe, not Kimi”). His temper again put him in trouble.

    Now, you asked why such penalty has been applied. I thought you might want to take a look to the blog of Marc Gene in the Spanish newspaper ElMundo, that I am pasting below. It is in Spanish, but yet you may get an idea. I know Marc “belongs” to Ferrari, but you may want to do some research on this matter. Marc defends that despite Lewis did allow Kimi to pass after not respecting the chicane, he should have let pass the next curve before attacking again, otherwise, he is taking advantage of the “rebufo” (sorry I do not remember the word in English now and I want to hurry up: it is something related to the “aspiration effect” of the previous car or alike). Whether or not this is correct, I do not know, but think about it.

    This is not to say that the stewards do not do what they want all the time regardless of the rules. In fact, many of us believe that happened often last year and you know what I am talking about. But that is an old story.

    In any case, congratulations to Lewis for an awesome race. The day he controls his temper will be unbeatable, I am afraid.

  48. Even if they had given a drive through penalty, Hamilton would have won. He had a clear 14 second advantage over Massa!

    FIA just proves that they are stupid again.

  49. It’s one of those decision where you just don’t know where to start…

    And once you do start it’s difficult to know where to stop, either.

    Let’s all go watch Superleague Formula or something, shall we?

  50. @Rohan, I’d be of the opinion that you probably don’t know many McLaren fans. Because everyone I’ve talked to, regardless of which team they support, is as disgusted as I am. Well, apart from the Ferrari fans I know. They are all ecstatic.

  51. I’m no Hamilton worshipper, in fact I’m a closet tifosi if anything, but…

    I’m speechless.

    Actually I’m not at all, but it’s best I don’t write exactly what I’m thinking in the public domain.

    What an absolute disgrace. Hamilton deserved every one of those 10 points. If I wasn’t so morbidly curious as to see how bias the FIA can be on the Reds’ home turf, I’d turn off next weekend out of polite protest and disdain…

    Sadly the FIA website doesn’t have a general ‘contact’ email address, otherwise I would have sent them my tuppence-worth. *However*, they do have a contact for the site administrator, in case of “Any technical problems”… I thought it might be amusing if we could get the entire F1 world to email them and point out there *IS* a problem with their website – it says Massa won at Spa and Ham came third ;)



  52. For me the penalty is justified. We´ve got the precedent of 2005 with Alonso and Klien, and in the post-race conference Hamilton recognised he used the cutting of the chicane to get right behind kimi to be in his aspiration.

    Given that, i would bet that if the incident would have been between sutil and nakajima, just to say someone wouldn´t been applied. It is applied with the interest to make the drivers champiosnhip more intriguing and nothing else

  53. Macademianut – the average time a speed-limited car needs to travel through the pit lane is 25 seconds, hence the size of the time penalty applied by the FIA (here to Hamilton & Glock, and in the past to Fisi, Liuzzi and many others). As such, had Hamitlon been given a drive through penalty, he would have been behind Massa and Heidfeld anyway.

  54. @ Keith
    > Raikkonen forced Hamilton off the track by swerving across the
    > front of the McLaren. Hamilton had been entirely alongside the
    > Ferrair [sic] going into the corner.

    Although I’m not sure whether Hamilton’s punishment was just or not, I do think you’re being too harsh on Räikkönen, here. He had the inside line on Hamilton, going into the final corner, which gives the corner to the Finn. Forcing a driver who’s trying to overtake you to the outside of a corner, is just as much ‘racing’ as it is to force the driver you are about to overtake to the outside.

    > A similar piece of driving at Eau Rouge or Blanchimont could
    > have lethal consequences.

    I’d say this is hardly the case anymore, because there’s 1,000 yards of run-off at both corners nowadays.

  55. Juan H,

    “I do believe Hamilton has again failed for not staying calmed…second position was again perfectly OK for his World Championship”

    So you’re saying you’d like to watch a motor RACING series where the guy who is in 2nd place has no interest in wanting to catch and overtake the guy in 1st place.

    Get out of here.

  56. They were side by side going into the corner, so what possible advantage did he get. If Lewis had not taken avoiding action both cars would have been out of the race if he had gone onto the grass. And I believe Mclaren consulted race control during the race.

    The is no point singing FIA and witchcraft. In my opinion, its not a lack of overtaking ruining the show, its the FIA and its inconsistencies that make a joke of everything.

  57. SkinBintin – being a Williams fan, I have little love for Ferrari, nor McLaren. So, fwiw not every non-Ferrari supporter with whom you have conversed is disgusted by the penalty.

  58. Lewis was never fully behind Kimi until they started braking for the 1st corner. I believe you are supposed to, correct me if I’m wrong…give the full position back to the driver and then carry on.

    Hamilton while maybe 6km slower was beside Kimi down the entire front straight…Kimi tried to move left to set up for the corner and almost hit Lewis’s right front with his back tire.

    Sorry, Lewis needs to learn a little bit about passing.

    Also, saying Kimi pushed him off the road…? how about last year when Alonso pushed him off at the first corner?!? no penalty…Alonso had the line.

  59. I have been a long time fan of F1 and have supported loads of the teams at different times.

    I watched the GP2 races from Saturday and Sunday. In both races drivers did exactly what Lewis Hamilton did and were not penalised for it!

    Judging by the decisions that the Stewards have made in the last few seasons I guess that if Hamilton had not avoided an accident by running across the escape lane then he would have been found guilty of ‘Failing to avoid an avoidable accident’.

    The Stewards are becoming more and more blatant in their bias.

    They should all be replaced by a group that are elected by the drivers.

    Hamilton did well to avoid being hit by Raikkonen. Raikkonen should be punished for his dangerous driving.

  60. Juan H,

    Kimi has been extremely slow in the corners after the rain started. Clearly, his car was ahead and he was wavering from one side to another to block Hamilton. Hamilton got on the inside, while Kimi was early on his brakes.

    Your whole lesson to Hamilton on his controling his anger is absolutely baseless. He spun in the first lap and was obviously eager to get it back. People who just watch the race start to give advice to the drivers who put the heart and soul on the track! I think McLaren is right to appeal this decision.

    But, this is not the end of the season. The equation will all be settled. FATE.


  61. If it made a difference maybe this decision will add impetus to the manufacturers meeting to be held at monza – maybe every race team – apart from ferrari could turn up and refuse too race – then bernie might listen and get shot of the fia – unfortunatly it wont happen???
    and as for being biased Keith – everybody gets a chance however stupid at times!! to put their point over – I’m just gutted here about those fia – enter expletive of choice here – more if required – keep it going keith

  62. Keith,

    Great site you’ve got here – how about doing a post analysing, and especially comparing, the various stewards decisions involving McLaren and Ferrari over the last 3-5 years? Perhaps including incidents that weren’t investigated the maybe should have been.

    As a relative newcomer to the sport I would welcome an objective analysis so I can form a meaningful opinion that isn’t unduly influenced by my own or others’ biases.

  63. @Rohan, Fair enough… I take my comment back.

  64. Its always nice to have a race decided off the track… NOT! Thank goodness McLaren are appealing this but unfortunately we all know they will loose the appeal as well. Its been proved the cards are always stacked against every other teams, excluding Ferrari of course (and I am a huge Ferrari fan but this is clearly not a fair playing field any more).

    Winning at all and any costs is clearly everything, but its funny how it sometimes leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Massa’s penalty was 10,000 Euro’s but alas not Lewis’s. It’s interesting to note that Kimi has not received any penalty?! That says it all!

    My advice to Lewis, if I may be so bold, would be to keep your head down and focus even more mate. The championship win will be all the more sweeter.

  65. I like Guy’s idea for the article. Perhaps extend it to the past 10 years to account for the possible ‘Schumi’ effect. Though it could possibly already confirm what we all suspect.

    It was just racing. Neither driver was to blame, but the stewards decided to blame someone. Pathetic, yes. Racing incident, also yes.

  66. Obviously it doesn’t make a difference, but shouldn’t Kimi get the same 25sec penalty? May be only a formality but he was atleast 50% at fault.

    I am far from a Hamilton fan (he is my least favorite driver, I refuse to use the word ‘hate’ but I strongly dislike his attitude.)But this was clearly too far.

    I thought Nascar was guilty for spicing up the races with questionable “debris on the track” cautions, but this is far worse.

    How can you even take the championship seriously anymore?

  67. I am sick of the FIA milking Ferrari all the time. A good race spoilt by biased attitudes which are head this so called ‘sport’. Hamilton gave the position back to Raikonen who was the one that forced him off and overtook him twice to win fair and square. Its ashame Ferrari and the FIA cannot accept defeat gracefully.

    I think it has gone to far now this biased behaviour which has left a bitter taste in my mouth. Lewis, Mclaren and some of the other teams should really give the FIA a STERN CASE and a PUNCH and if the race is not given back to hamilton before Monza they should just boycott the next race.

    I was entertained in this race and was proud of Hamilton for his heroics, however it sickens me that when hearing his national anthem on the podium there is a plot in the stewards office to rid this talented drivers win and stunning drive for Massa who was not even in contention. Raikonen crashed out anyway.

    Shame on you Ferrari and FIA!

    it is a big shame that this sports is being brought into such redicle by this sort of shambolic decision.

  68. I for one am absolutely appalled at this decision. If there was any doubt in my mind over FIA favouring Ferrari it has completely disappeared now.

    Valencia springs to mind… both cars involved in incidents within the pits, one incident injuring and the other creating a potentially dangerous situation. Both incidents due to pit release. And what’s the best the FIA could think of? Fining a multi million pound budget team a mere 10,000 Euros (about 7,500 sterling).

    I for one hope that they appeal this decision using everything they have got. However i doubt it will do anything, after all the team appealing are called McLaren.

  69. @Steve – yeah, 10 years would be great, I was just a little hesitant about the workload for Keith :)

  70. I’ll second Rohan’s comments. There’s precedent for this. And Hamilton clearly gained an advantage by being closer to Kimi than he otherwise could have been.
    Kimi did nothing wrong defending going into the chicane – he had the line and didn’t need to allow Hamilton past.

    I don’t think this penalty can be appealed – so expect the see the court throw it out

  71. I have come to the conclusion that Lewis will be prevented from winning the championship. Real F1 fans know that stripping Lewis of his brilliant win is nonsense. Give it up Lewis and walk away, you don’t stand a chance.

  72. i think giving up position after cutting the chicane means a full car’s length immediately, not racing him down the start/finish straight. i dont like all the penalties, but Lewis was not playing by the rules. as far as Ferrari favoritism, what about the team orders incident in Germany, i think it was, when Heikki let Lewis by? or when Lewis took Kimi out in the pits in Canada? lets all calm down about the conspiracies.

  73. What a crab!!! I´m same lines with Dan M that I don´t like Hamilton very much.
    It think Hamilton got advantage but to give this kind of punishment is BS!!

  74. A complete travesty

    Anyone who thinks Hamilton was struggling to make the chicane should watch the onboard camera view http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70rXr2Mkq_M You can see he made the right hand part easily and is going to take the left hand part with no difficulty until he turns on to the grass to avoid a collision. The idea that anyone can gain an advantage in traction on grass is ludicrous.

    My first thought was also Dijon and I posted elsewhere that the video should be sent to the stewards to try and induce a mass coranary.

    Lewis was part way level with Kimi’s left hand side going towards La Source. He lifted off to allow Kimi to pass then went completely behind him and attacked him on his right. What more could he do? McLaren spoke to Charlie Whiting at the time and he said it was fine. If the race director is happy with it why are the stewards involved?

    The comments of those who think the decision was OK remind me of the time Schumacher parked his car in Monaco. The people who thought he was wrong were discussing steering inputs, the car slowing and an then not slowing anymore and the Schumacher fans were saying Michael wouldn’t do that and ignoring the evidence. Someon who is in favour of this decision needs to put a coherent comment up defending it rather than saying we are all McLaren fans. Standing chanting four legs good, two legs bad is all well and good so long as you can explain whya and have the slightest idea of the definition of a leg.

  75. #29 James these are the rules that were applied to convict poor Lewis:-

    These are the parts that the stewards quoted as being the ones that outlaw the chicane and why after overtaking in the chicane the driver should cede back the position:

    “30. a) Duri g practice a d the race, drivers may use o ly the track a d must at all times observe the
    provisio s of the Code relati g to drivi g behaviour o circuits.”


    “2 (g) The race track alone shall be used by the drivers during the race.”

    This part explains the 25 second penalty

    “16. The stewards may impose a y o e of three pe alties o a y driver i volved i a I cide t :
    a) drive-through pe alty. The driver must e ter the pit la e a d re-joi the race without stoppi g ;
    b) te seco d time pe alty. The driver must e ter the pit la e, stop at his pit for at least te seco ds
    a d the re-joi the race.
    c) a drop of te grid positio s at the driver’s ext Eve t.
    However, should either of the pe alties u der a) a d b) above be imposed duri g the last five laps, or
    after the e d of a race, rticle 16.4b) below will ot apply a d 25 seco ds will be added to the elapsed
    race time of the driver co cer ed.”

    As you can see, Lewis did not break the rules as phrased.

  76. I feel so empty after this entirely predictable decision. Hopefully the appeal court will draw a line in the sand. If they don’t then McLaren should just boycott Monza. What is the point of risking one’s health if you’re just going to be cheated out of what you’ve earned. How can these people sleep at night?

    Desperate day for Formula 1. As damaging as Austria 2002(?) and Indianapolis 2005. Yet the arrogant, unaccountable halfwits continue to inflict their madness.

  77. > Luke <

    There were no team orders, that’s been establised and put to bed.

    Heiki said himself it was is own decision to let Ham past…

  78. Did Hamilton gain an advantage from cutting the chicane? Yes…

    I think that is all the stewards would have considered. If he had waited unitl after La Source to attack, I think there would be no fuss…

    Nevertheless, it still seems a little harsh..and I’m a red supporter thru and thru.

    I think most Mclaren fans are also Brits which is why more people on this blog seem to be upset. I’m sorry Keith, but you seem to have let your normally unbiased demenour disappear for a moment.

  79. From: The stewards of the meeting

    To: The team manager, Vodafone McLaren Mercedes

    The stewards, having received a report from the Race Director and having met with the drivers and team managers involved, have considered the following matter, determine a breach of the regulations has been committed by the competitor and impose the penalty referred to.

    No./driver: 22, Lewis Hamilton

    Time: 15:21:33

    Facts: Cut the chicane and gained an advantage

    Offence: Breach of Article 30.3(a) of the 2008 FIA Formula 1 sporting regulations and Appendix L chapter 4 Article 2 (g) of the International Sporting Code.

    Penalty: Drive-through penalty (Article 16.3 (a)), since this is being applied at the end of the race, 25 seconds will be added to the driver’s elapsed race time.

    FIA Stewards of the Meeting

    Received by: Lewis Hamilton, Vodafone McLaren Mercedes

    What a load of crap !

    Maybe time for a boycot ?

  80. Right, Massa’s pit release from valencia was unsafe, not his fault but ferrari’s I think the correct decision would be the loss of felipe’s constructor’s points for that race. I don’t think he deserved to be stripped of his victory as all he did was drive away when his team told him to.

    As for today, I think Lewis deserved the penalty, not particularly for cutting the chicane, but for barely conceding the position, he let kimi’s rear wing get just about ahead of his front wing before getting back on the throttle. His attempt at giving back kimi’s position was questionable, I think he was too eager at taking the lead, anyway, he definately gained an advantage, because had he conceded P1 a bit more fairly, he wouldn’t have had the run in on kimi at la source. But then again, i think 25 seconds it too harsh, a 10 second penalty would have sufficed.
    Had Lewis not overjumped it a bit at the end. I still think he would have won. But I think the penalty was justified because his over ambitious manouvere put pressure on kimi which wouldn’t have been there had he not cut the chicane.

    As for lewis complaining about being squeezed out, Alonso did the same thing at the same track last year. It’s not the oppositions fault he’s not as ruthless as they are, just because he wouldn’t do it to them, doesn’t mean they can’t do it to him.

    And all that crap about not being overtaken on the outisde, I’m sure someone will own his ass again just like felipe did at hungary. He really should watch what he says, because he mocked massa for letting him by so easily at germany then we all saw what happened.

    It’s not Felipe’s fault he was second, the win would have gone to whoever was in his place, bu I do feel Ferrari get favourable treatment, I’m not blind, but if drivers put themselves in silly, questionable situations they should expect the worst.

    Finally, it wasn’t the best day for the Finns out there, Heikki had a shocker, tangled up with webber, unnecessarily and then parked it on the last lap. They’ll never win a WCC with heikki failing to convert his decent qualifying form in results.

    But for Kimi, I feel very sorry for him, it was truly do or die, not accepting second place and going all balls or bust with 2 laps to go is admirable and brave. I think his title hopes are over, but then again F1 is crazy, he’ll be back nextt year, with ice in his belly ;)

  81. Well I said before that Hamilton didn’t deserved to be punished, so I must say that this penalty is a bit ridiculous. But but but, I really didn’t think that the way Hamilton handled the situation was very fair. He came into the last chicane too fast, he must have known that there was no way he was going to get Kimi there. He did it anyways though, and of course had to cut the chicane to avoid the accident.

    I don’t think there’s any way that he would have been inches behind Kimi’s gear box if he had followed Kimi through the chicane. He could have been close, and still had a chance at La Source, but not as close as he was.

    So there’s where I thought it was unfair, the advantage he gained cutting the chicane. If it were legal, someone say 2 seconds behind could just brake late and intentionally get forced off and then rejoin the race close to the person ahead of them. It would be an easy way to get right behind someone’s gearbox, which everyone knows is hard in F1.

    Now I know there are those of you that though he entered the chicane fairly and got forced off by Kimi, but I didn’t see it like that. I guess that’s where people’s opinions mainly differ.

    But once again, it wasn’t too big of a deal, not big enough to change the outcome of the race.

  82. Firstly, I dont think it´s fair to criticise Kimi in any way for protecting his position at the chicane, he´s doing what is expected of him and it was fair, if a bit hard. But Hamilton could not be expected to do any more than what he did having been forced wide.

    Yes he cut the chicane (through no fault of his own by the way) but imediately slowed and let Kimi back through. Is there any rule that dictates at what point after allowing a car back through you are allowed to re attack? I dont think so.

    It was a great scrap, I very much doubt Kimi would have had any complaint what so ever over the incident in question and would admit Lewis did him good and propper!

    The new regulations for 2009 drawn up by the FIA have been developed in an attempt to improve the show and allow more scraps like what we´ve seen today, so it´s the FIA that really need to step in here and do what´s right for the sport.

    Let´s hope common sence prevails and Lewis is given the win he deserves after a really agressive and spectacular finish to the race. Come on Bernie, get ya head out ya wallet for a second and do something good for your sport for a change!

  83. From what I watched was.
    A pass attempt aroung the outside that left both cars side by side.
    Kimi was on a win or bust strategy so his extra speed drifted him across towards Lewis. Lewis did the only thing to avoid an accident and took the escape road.
    The “What if’s” if Lewis had had a collision would also probably have ended in a drive through penalty, as mentioned above by LongTimeF1Fan.
    In such a case both drivers are responsible for avoiding a collision. Kimi couldn’t quite make room to provide racing room for Lewis when he was along side him.
    So was Lewis wrong to avoid an accident that Kimi was 50% involved in? No I think not.
    Was Kimi wrong in not providing enough room? No I think not, but as Kimi was the car leading prior to the chicane Lewis did the correct thing and let him by on the straight.
    Kimi did get into the lead on the next straight.
    and the most important bit that I saw….
    Kimi then did not defend his lead for the next corner by taking the inside line. If he had, then there would be no penalty.
    I can’t get my head around this!
    This was racing that many F1 fans have been crying out for. Great action on track and then this news.
    I’ve been passionate about F1 for a long time. I feel sick now. I’m not sure I want to watch another GP.

  84. OUTRAGEOUS!the FIA’s just stupid!
    they manage to ruin a great race by making a stupid decision like this!

  85. I can’t believe that the best race end of the season is ruined by the idiot stewards. Who are these ***** anyway? Can we have some names so we know who to hate?

    I paid £500 for 2 Silverstone tickets this year and have just paid the same for next year but why do I bother? Even if we see Lewis win the race he can never win the drivers championship due to the massive bias against him and for Ferrari.

    Something has to be done about this before it ruins the sport I have been watching for 30 years!

    I can’t believe how upset this mess has made me!

  86. I agree with Guy, I would love to see that article, Keith. Although it could turn into a book (one that I would buy!).

    Juan, I completely disagree about Hamilton’s ‘anger problem.’ Find one F1 fan who prefers a driver who cruises for points over one who fights to the ragged edge for every possible point. That’s what separates drivers like Alonso and Hamilton from the Heidfelds (well, maybe not today!), Kovalainens and, unless he’s feeling particularly spirited, Massas of F1. If Hamilton had been the one who crashed, then yes, you could say that driving calm for 2nd place would have net him more points for the championship. But he kept his car in one piece. Unfortunately, only in a series that discourages actual racing on track would Hamilton be better off calmly accepting second place.

  87. “As for today, I think Lewis deserved the penalty, not particularly for cutting the chicane, but for barely conceding the position, he let kimi’s rear wing get just about ahead of his front wing before getting back on the throttle.


    Either he gave the position back or he didn’t.
    If he’s let Kimi get his rear wing in front of his front wing then he’s given him the place back.

    What is he supposed to do, give Kimi a 10 second gap and then try to pass him ?

  88. I feel its fair, he shouldn’t have cut the chicane.

    his car was facing towards the track, then he headed left to cut the chicane, with the momentum from that move he came onto to the pit straight faster than had he just did the bus stop as usual.

  89. I’ve been watching it over and over again on the tivo… and it just doesn’t look like Hamilton actually gives the position back… he looks like he is making another racing move to set up for passing in the next corner, not dropping back to make up for cutting the chicane.

    I hate seeing such a great race spoiled, but it just doesn’t look like Hamilton did enough to give back the position.

  90. If the FIA can go ahead with this redicule decision they should give D.Hill the 94 world title because of Schumacher deprately cutting across and crucially bending his suspension. And that terrific dual in Dijon 79, disqualify both drivers for touching each other.

    Hamilton if you do win the WDC despite this flaw it will be even the more sweeter for you and painful for Ferrari and FIA. You can do it, be bold and ruthless and fight for what you think is right. We are all behind you.

  91. If Hamilton was penalised JUST for cutting the chicane, several drivers in most races should also receive the same penalty.
    Lewis gave back the place, in case it was deemed that his avoiding action was deemed to have given him an advantage then re-took the place.
    Hamilton was much faster in the two corners before the chicane and also through the next several corners.
    There is no question in my mind that Hamilton was in the right and that Raikkonen should be punished.

  92. I am not surprised at the verdict. It seems it the turn of a Brazilian to win the F1 driver’s championship, one way or another!!!!
    What an absolutely appalling decicision!!!!
    One of the best races of the past two decades (or more) ruined by an apparent bias in favour of Ferrari.
    If Massa should be crowned F1 drivers champion 2008 by less than 7 points (remember Valencia pitlane?), it will probably be the most hollowest of victories.
    In case my comments should be interperated as a rabid Hamilton fan, I should say that I think he is an out an out racer, flawed yes, (witness Canada), doubtful ego??
    (perhaps), but take away his performances from 2008 and the season (and viewing figures) would look a lot less exciting.
    Did he deserve 10 points?……Yes!!!!!
    Is overtaking, or an attempt permissable under current F1 rules, irrespective of conditions (Go careful guys!)?

  93. this site shud be renamed as lewisfanatic.co :):):)

  94. There may be something in the argument that Hamilton didn’t conceded enough but McLaren (apparently) did check with the Race Director who seemed to think it was OK.

    So, it seems to me, McLaren took reasonable steps to verify the concession was sufficient.

  95. I don’t know Shery, I’m a Ferrari fan and I don’t think the stewards got it right.

    I want Massa to win but only if he deserves to, this is just hollow.

  96. oh well at least mclaren will appeal.
    it feels like a of a waste of 1 and a half hours!

  97. Did anyone notice that Kimi crashed, of his own accord? What had Massa to do with any of it, he was miles behind?


  98. “angry”, do you think Heikki and Mclaren would admit to team orders in Germany?

  99. Hamilton won that race fair and square. What an insane ruling, particularly in the light of their equally dumb decision two weeks ago. The stench of corruption is becoming unbearable.

  100. I will first admit that I am a staunch Hamilton fan, before that Coulthard, before that Damon Hill. As a proud member of the British Public, I always support the British drivers no matter how they perform (don’t people with allegiances to football clubs do the same?). Anyway, this is a British site so you would expect many people to be pro-Hamilton would you not? How many British people supported Russia in the Beijing Olympics?

    Anyway, back to the issue at hand, the penalty was completely unjustified. I too agree that Massa’s incident in the pit lane in Valencia should have resulted in a minimum of a drive through penalty but the stewards decided that this was not warranted based on the evidence they had. Did the stewards in Spa actually consider all the McLaren and Ferrari telemetry before they made their decision? I would hope so.

    Don’t get me wrong now, I am a massive comspiracy theorist but crooked stewards? I can’t believe that the FIA stewards in such a high profile sport could be seen to be anything but transparent in applying the rules fairly and most of all consistently.

    I think perhaps that the main point is not an issue of fairness because perhaps the penalty was fair – who am I or We to judge – we do not have all the facts the stewards do. My point is that the penalties have to be applied consistently to all teams and drivers at all times.

    Oh and another thing, that Ferrari stupid red light/green light pit release system. Why are they allowed to use it? It has been proved to be detrimental to pit lane safety. When it does work could it actually give them an advantage in getting away from the box compared to a lollipop man who has to get out of the way? Is that situation fair? I think not.

    Dear FIA,

    Reinstate Hamilton’s win and while you are at it can you please tell me why you don’t want Hamilton to win the WDC? What is it about Hamilton and McLaren that you don’t like? Is it Hamilton you don’t like? Why?

  101. The point is he cut the chicane in the first place, thats the problem I have with this debacle, and in doing so has given himself the opportunity to make the overtake where as if he’d taken the chicane (and if the watch the video of the incident on this very website you can see he had the opportunity to take the corner but elected to cut the chicane) then he would have been no where near as close going into La Source.

  102. Gosh! I remember this, F1 motor racing! What an exciting finish, the dog hid, I for the 1st time I got excited(watching F1)and then the stewards must have thought that we were enjoying it so instead of sportsmen racing each other we will go back to boring follow the leader syndrome! As already mentioned mechanics with broken bones, racing in the pit lane are A-OK but racing tut tut!

  103. come on if things were the other way round would you all be saying it was a bad thing rules are rules

  104. It was fair punishment. Kimi must be kicking himself in the balls for not settling with no.2 and inheriting the win.

  105. I do think the decision was too harsh, but I believe Hamilton gained advantage the way he conceded the position. The on-board cam only strengthens my conviction.

    Keith, please, it’s waaaay to much suggesting that Kimi should be punished :)

    About bias on the website. Of course there is. And it’s only natural. In the website of the Gazzetta dello Sporto, 73% of readers believe the penalty was fair. It’s a logical behaviour to defend yourself and your fellow friends (only in extreme pathological cases, such as masochism and self-hatred this doesn’t happen).
    I must confess I only popped in to see the brit reaction and have a laugh (ok, that was cruel)

  106. didn’t micheal do that more than once in that race?

  107. well..the powers that be are killing F1 slowly but surely. As a long timer fan of F1, for more than 20 years, this is one of those crackpot decisions yet again. I’ve also been a huge Kimi fan for years, and he was at his hard-charging best for most of today.

    Kimi did take it to the wire though at the Bus Stop, but they are racing for the lead, in a race that could tip the championship. He held the line, right on the limit, and Hamilton had to go off track. But Ham clearly gave up track position and then pounced again, with some great driving. This nonsense about exactly how much advantage he had is crap. It was great racing and Hamilton made it to the line, by being as gentle as he could. Kimi’s temper got the better of him this time.

    I do think you’re being harsh on Kimi though Keith, he’ll race to the wire, but he is one of the last drivers that will “force” a car off. Remember Alonso and Ham into Eau Rouge last year, where Ham nearly went off – that was dangerous!

    But the stewards investigation and following penalty is disgusting. It will prevent drivers going balls-out like they are supposed to, they are racing…and…surprise…this happens in racing. As long as the position is given back, the driver can have another crack at the next opportunity.

    What a waste of time. It really makes me wonder if FIA & Bernie’s gang are deliberately steering the championship to make it closer, all the way down to Brazil, where of course Felipe should have his fairytale win at home and the #1 for 2009.

    I don’t know- but ridiculous decisions like these will drive fans away, curtail the drivers and damage F1. For once I actually hope McLaren win the appeal.

  108. As a Lewis fan but a bigger F1 fan, this is a sad end to the best GP i have seen in years..

    Whatever happens well done Lewis you could have settled for 2nd but did not ensuring a great finish revoking the passion and feeling that Senna and Prost brought to the track. Whatever happens people will always remember that..

  109. If Lewis was driving a different colour car or was a different colour, this wouldn’t have happened.

    If Massa accepts this “victory” then he is less of a sportsman in my eyes. Lewis said he didn’t want to win by default or in a backroom in Brazil last year – I wonder if Massa will say the same.

    Keith, I’m sure you’ve read Peter Gill’s analysis on the Planet F-1 website, who calls this the death of F1. Please read it everyone – it sums it up totally:


    Sign this petition too – it is really gaining momentum and has nearly 2,000 signatures already.

    Also, write to the FIA – I have done and it takes a little more time and a 50p European stamp (just stick 2 x first class stamps on the envelope) but if you love F1, you must do it. Here is the address:

    8, Place de la Concorde
    75008 Paris

  110. is there precedent, on appeal, for the stewards’ decision to be upheld, but the penalty adjusted (eg. moved to next race)??

  111. verasaki-not to be mistaken for a mclaren/f1 partisan
    7th September 2008, 21:24

    i’ll take the middle ground here- let’s assume there is no partisanship in anything the fia does. it’s still broken. these consistently inconsistent applications of the rules and penalties are a complete embarrassment and quite frankly, i’m sort of sick of being dis’d by an fia whose attitude is that we should all put up or shut up. even if there is no favouritism in rules applications, the fact that there are grounds for the accusations to be made and that the incidences are more regular than rare then, something is just not working.

    the fia has got to fix whatever is going wrong. they don’t even have to ‘fess up to anything. i don’t care what they’ve done or why anymore, i just want it to stop. who the h**l wants anything to do with a sport that after a weekend of tickets, hotel rooms, airfare et al, or even after 2 hours of sitting in front of a tv goes home thinking they’ve seen one thing only to find out a few hours later that someone who may or may not be objective decides you saw something else? how long are sponsors and manufacturers going to buy into that?

    has it occurred to anyone that if this were football (american or otherwise) the ambulance sirens would probably still be ringing in belgium? those fans would be rioting.

    and as far as this site goes, it’s a blog and keith goes out of his way sometimes to keep the posts balanced. yeah, he’s got his favs same as us all but it isn’t really showing up in the post itself, now is it? so, since it is a blog written for fans it isn’t surprising that some of the people who comment do defend their team, driver, whatever. sheesh! and give everyone a little credit, from some of the comments i recall from when i first started reading this blog whenever ago, everyone’s moved on from the “i hate ugly nameyourdriver because he’s stupid” trench.

    but i admit i am still just mystified and really mad about this penalty (and colour me a kimi/alonso/kubica fan). all of a sudden, what used to be taken for granted, 2 guys race hot into a corner, neither backs off, whoever has the advantage, one shoots the chicane, takes the lead and then gives it right back, then continues on…what happened to that being the end of the argument until the next corner? this could easily have been a chicane on any other track where there wasn’t a nice straight ahead where hamilton wouldn’t have been able to challenge on the next turn. but at this track he could. i still contend he didn’t gain advantage, he just seized the next opportunity. to argue otherwise is like saying he’d plotted the whole thing out and not even senna or schumacher was that good, sorry.

    it just seems to me the fia has just announced that racing isn’t actually going to be allowed in f1 anymore.

  112. monaco73, when alonso pushed hamilton out of eu rouge?, didn’t hamilton state he would ram alonso off after that?, i’ve been trying to find a vid of that!

  113. I would like to know what rule Lewis broke? He relinquished the overtaking advantage gained, and any further advantage is only subjective. Kimi on the otherhand left the circuit for a considerable distance – a clear breach of the regulations. I presume the stewards are delaying their decision on what penalty Kimi will receive for that? (sarcasm alert).

    Having watched F1 for over 25 years, and never having missed a race, I am now decided, enough is enough. If the FIA want to give Ferrari the titles, let them; I don’t have to watch it. There are far more less biased racing series out there and I shall start following them. When Allan Donnelly was appointed we all suspected there would be some Ferrari bias, but I doubt anybody thought it would be this bad or this blatant.

  114. Ok, forget the racing in the chicane – good aggresive stuff and no problems there – it is racing after all.

    So the ruling is given for gaining an advantage, well lets see…

    Lewis has to let Kimi past.

    Kimi passes Lewis – well established laws of physics determine momentum is now with Kimi, so Lewis can not have the advatange in terms of speed or momentum, regardless of how close they are. This is the crytical point and right there and then the race is back on.

    Kimi breaks early and moves to the OUTSIDE of the fast approaching corner.

    Lewis moves from behind to the INSIDE line and breaks LATER, positioning himself best for the corner.

    You can argue that Lewis was closer than he would have been had he backed off more or played ‘nicely’ and followed the Ferrari through the chicance but the ONLY reason he passed Kimi at turn one was the difference in breaking points and lines – that’s racing and unless the FIA can tell us why that is not allowed I can only despair for the transparency and reputation of this wonderful sport.

    I am a fan of all F1 racing and appreciate good, hard racing (I was genuinely sorry to see Kimi crash out), but Kimi blew the move into turn 1 and Lewis outdrove him – what was Kimi doing moving to the outside you have to ask? If Kimi had kept that place then there woudl not have been an investigation, period.

    And as for those saying Lewis stayed close and slip streamed Kimi, watch the video, he was behind Kimi’s car for a fraction of a second and could not have gained an advantage for this.

  115. There is no cosistency in the application of F1 rules other than favour Ferrari (except when Schumi was driving) and hammer McClaren. It seems stewards don’t like to see good drivers win! If Hamilton had done what Massa did in the pit lane in Velencia he would have been penalised. I am a keen motor sport addict but F1 is now off my viewing list. MotoGP is far more interesting and governed more equitably.

  116. @ S Hughes

    dont even imply that race or skin color has anything to do with this. that is a preposterous statement.

  117. The penalty applied by the F1 Stewards is making a farce of what is supposed to be a motor race. Two cars go into a corner side by side on dry tyres in the rain. Hamilton could have held his line and taken both cars off (a certain penalty)or take to the run-off. He came out in front of the Ferrari and then backed off and dropped in behind. Nowhere does the regulation state how far he should back off or many corners must he wait before attempting another pass, which he did on the next corner. It was almost inevitable that the Mclaren would pass before the end of the race as the Ferrari, even with Kimi at the wheel, was obviously at a disadvantage in the conditions and ended the race in the barrier soon after. Are the Stewards on a mission to drive fans and sponsorship into other formulas?

  118. i’m with Luke on this one, if F1 fans was that racist then Montoya wouldn’t be held in such high regard.

    F1 isn’t about nations, or colours.
    its about technology and dodgy rules, rock on.

  119. sush – you’re right I think, but I can’t find that vid anywhere. It was scary stuff seeing them two-abreast into the corner, and Hamilton did moan quite vociferously afterwards…

  120. @ bob, how can you honestly say Lewis couldnt make the chicane? watch the video and watch his car clearly change direction. he cut the corner rather than letting off the accelerator.

  121. The real shame is that it’s the second consecutive race where it’s ended with the viewers/fans knowing the result may not stand. There’s no point watching if you have to wait another few hours to read the race result on the internet.

  122. Up until now I wasn’t buying into the whole ‘Ferrari favouritism’ thing…well, not much anyway. This decision has completely changed my opinion though – an absolute joke that has robbed the rightful winner of his victory. Awful, awful decision, and I do hope the appeal is successful.

  123. monaco73 – THANKS! i knew he did!, i was bemoaned for mentioning that by even Keith, unfortunatly i cant find the proof! it was on the first lap wasn’t it?

  124. S Hughes – you do realise that statements such as yours, implying that the FIA are racist, are libellous, and you could well be sued for making them, don’t you?

  125. I feel sorry for Lewis. And concerned. Because he seems to be repeating last year’s mistakes. 2007: he had the series sawn up, all he had to do was play the percentages. He did not and he lost it. 2008: same situation, and same mistakes?
    What i am trying to say is he could have let Kimi win (so he gives him two points, but kimi is far behind) and keep second and GAIN two points from Felipe. All he needs to do is this for the last remaining races and he is the champ. Even disregarding the penalization, his move was extremely risky (and he had NO reason to take that risk) in the rainy condition. He could very well have ended up against the wall like Kimi, and then what? real disaster.
    Ferrari reliabily issues have handed him the championship this season, if he keeps a cool head he is gonna walk it.
    I cannot understand his behaviour and i cannot understand McLaren’s management…cant’ they tell him what to do??

  126. “Keith, I’m sure you’ve read Peter Gill’s analysis on the Planet F-1 website, who calls this the death of F1. Please read it everyone – it sums it up totally:


    Particularly can I direct people to the penultimate paragraph of that article.

  127. I was just about to hit ‘Buy’ on an Expedia package to Monza – grandstand tickets, flights, hotel…the lot. Over a grand.

    The only way Bernie will listen is when he starts to lose money. So I’m doing my own little bit and not going. It won’t make a difference but I feel sick right now and it’s all i can do.

  128. Rohan: Does that mean I can be arrested for suggesting the stewards be shot?

  129. @ alex,

    i agree. but i think if lewis would have held his position in the corner, he still would have won. he was much faster than kimi in the closing laps.

  130. Luke, I hate to dig up Germany and discuss it here but you’d have a better case about team orders had Heikki shown the same pace as Hamilton and stayed on his tail all the way to the finish! Maybe if they had both passed Massa and Piquet together to finish 1-2 you’d be on to something. But Hamilton simply had way more pace; Heikki saw that, and decided that defending and risking a collision between two teammates would be ill-advised. I agree that Heikki didn’t put up a real fight but I don’t automatically equate not wanting to crash into a rapidly approaching teammate with ‘team orders.’

    I hardly ever comment but today I am glued to this discussion and can’t step away! I’d just like to say that I’ve been reading F1Fanatic for about a year and Keith is an extremely independent and intelligent observer. Anyone calling his ethics into question either hasn’t been around here very long or is blinded by their own bias. I’m a McLaren fan and I often find myself disappointed that Keith is never nearly as critical of Massa as I am! Don’t think that just because the site is from Britain that it isn’t legit.

    Finally, let me guess: this appeal means we will have an ultimately pointless courtdate in Paris set for, say, December or something, right? That’s how the FIA typically works.

  131. Luke I havn’t got access to the video , I am only going on what I saw in the live broadcast, so you may be right, but the question is did he gain an advantage by doing so. If he hadn’t dropped in behind Kimi then he should have been penalised but I can’t see that he actually gained any advantage over what was obviously a slower car in the wet.

  132. >Luke<

    McLaren and Heiki have no choice but to be honest about their radio chat between car and pit – it’s all monitored and recorded by the race stewards…

    Ron simply couldn’t have radio’d to Heiki to tell him to move over without the race stewards knowing.

    Anyway, that’s not what this thread is about, so I’ll leave it there!

  133. @ Alex,

    Totally agree with your comments about Lewis. Thing is though he is a racing driver through and through. It’s in his blood and his agression is part of his style and it’s what makes him so good. He want’s to win. He never goes out on the track to take second place – always first. Maybe he feels he has something to prove, maybe he want’s to give the team the win every time. One day he might learn, he is still young and has plenty years of F1 left in him. Thing is, if he wins this year, and next, and next and then passes Schueys record what would be next for him? Surely not Indiecar?

  134. Kevin,

    with all this talk of letting two cars race today, your arguement doesnt hold water, imo. yes, Lewis was faster in Germany, but track position is track position, teammates or not. Heikki moved over like he was a backmarker. he could at least carried on for a few more corners and let Lewis pass on the straight. for the record, Massa did the same thing for Lewis in that race.

  135. martin: from wikipedia (had to look it up because i couldn’t remember if this was after an appeal but, yes it was)
    1994 -michael schumacher. coincidentally damon hill was driving for williams and this was after senna’s death.

    “At the British Grand Prix, Schumacher was penalised for overtaking on the formation lap. He then ignored the penalty and the subsequent black flag, which indicates that the driver must immediately return to the pits, for which he was disqualified and later given a two-race ban.”

    dq’d in the race, given the ban after the appeal failed. believe it or not, michael was the new boy on the block at one point in his career. the “partisan” inuendo at the time was the fia was trying to fix the championship in hill’s favour. i never really bought into that though or they’d have nailed his hide in adelaide, rightly or wrongly. the fia was notorious for trying to herd the new bad boys into line. just a personal opinion that. i think that’s what the penalty was about(well and ignoring a black flag is never good). they obviously had micheal’s number though, didn’t they?

  136. Didn’t he change direction to avoid a collision? Looked that way to me.

  137. @Robert
    PlanetF1 is a bit one-sided for me, I gave up reading it a while back, which is partly how I found myself here!

    I don’t think you’d expect Hamilton to settle for second, even if it did mean extending his championship lead, you’re always going to go for a win if you’ve got a sniff of victory. At the same time, his

  138. (clicked too soon)
    …his move was ill-judged, and he could’ve played it safe(r).

  139. I’ve got one question; How much are ferrari paying the stewards?

  140. Luke

    Why is it preposterous? I am not the only one who has suggested this on all the forums I’ve read.

  141. I don’t think any more needs to be said. Keith and all the commenters can spelt it clearly enough.

    McLaren – either appeal the decision or boycott Monza, this ruling was wrong and it doesn’t deserve to stay as it is.

  142. bob


    for the record, this is a very partisan arguement, and each side is biased in their view. at least i am. so no hard feelings to anyone here.

  143. S hughes,

    i dont think skin color has anything to do with the decision.

  144. “@Robert
    PlanetF1 is a bit one-sided for me, I gave up reading it a while back, which is partly how I found myself here!”

    Don’t disagree ceedas, but I think what was said in the paragraph I was referring to relates to the whole crux of the issue.

  145. Rohan, I think the FIA and Max Mosley are racist. Now sue my ass!

  146. At best this is a pretty marginal decision which most won’t understand.

    At worst the ruling has seriously weakened the sport causing many people (including me) to switch off from now on. After all, what’s the point in watching a race for an hour and a half if a bunch of petty beurocrats with clip boards re-write the result in a meeting room after everyone has gone home.

    My kids simply will not understand this and nor should they.

    I for one won’t be watching next week – I just can’t be bothered.

  147. BOOOOO!!!!!!

    The FIA have a chance to set this straight.

    Hamilton lifted and let Kimi by, period.

  148. I don’t believe Hamilton could have made the chicane without losing his front wing, or worse colliding with Kimi and taking them both out. His only option was to take the escape route and cut the chicane as we have seen countless drivers do over the years especially last corner in Montreal. Conceding the lead back to Kimi was completely correct. What Hamilton is being punished for, is his attacking spirit and natural instinct to race. Had he waited he probably would have been fine, but thats what we love about him, he goes for it. Also His tyres were obviously working better than Kimi’s who braked earlier for turn 1 so what was he supposed to so, say after you old chap?

    Friend in Italy say’s reports think penalty justified, well they would wouldn’t they

  149. Seems The F in FIA stands for Ferrari…

    I give up on F1, the inconsistancy on rules & penalties is baffling…

  150. Angry (albeit, a bit less now)
    7th September 2008, 21:56


    “for the record, Massa did the same thing for Lewis in that race”

    I’m sorry, I don’t understand. Are you saying that Massa gave way to Hamilton under McLaren team orders too?!!

    Stop sniping for the sake of it. The penalty was unjust. Get over it.

  151. I don’t think this is a pro-Ferrari decision, even though they have very obviously benefited from it.
    I think this is a decision to try to keep the championships close to keep the interest until the end of the season.

    It’s cynical and I don’t like it.
    But to be honest, this isn’t the first, and probably won’t be the last time we see such decisions made.

    When Lewis joined F1 I was afraid the FIA would be very biased towards him, my thinking being the positive PR to be got from having our first black British F1 champion – How wrong I was.

  152. Who exactly are the FIA stewards’? How many, who do they get their marching orders from, who has the final word?

  153. Angry (albeit, a bit less now)

    i should have said in fairness to Heikki, Massa moved over like a wounded dog too. i’m not sniping, and i have nothing to get over, but i will keep it in mind for the future.

  154. Angry (albeit, a bit less now)
    7th September 2008, 22:00


    FYI – the race stewards for Spa were Nicholas Deschaux, Surinder Thatti and Yves Bacquelaine.

    Let’s hope they don’t get the chance to preside over another race!

  155. Petition signed – along with 2600 other people! Hitting refresh every couple of minutes is quite an experience – the signatures are rocketing up.

  156. Angry (albeit, a bit less now)
    7th September 2008, 22:02


    I think it’s been an ’emotional’ day for a lot of people (remember, I’m not even a Ham fan either!).

    I retract my accusation of you sniping ;)

  157. Race stewards have nothing to do with the FIA.

    According to them, Lewis gained an advantage from cutting the chicane. Momentarily giving the place back and then taking it again, using the momentum you would not have had, had you not cut the chicane, is breaking this rule.

  158. Angry (albeit, a bit less now)

    no hard feelings then, eh? it has been emotional.

  159. It’s been a while since i watched the race but,
    didn’t Kimi Spin out of first place before he stuffed it in the wall, Lewis didn’t get that much of a advantage then did he.

    Oh and I hear that Lewis was docked his German win ‘cos he over took one of those sacred red cars,
    I await your replys

  160. yet another disasterous decision by the stewards whose inconsistent application of the rules is making a mockery of what should be the greatest motorsport spectacle on the planet.

  161. i concur Alastair, Hamilton’s car came away from the bus stop at some incredible speed.

    But i feel Kimi should also be penalised, he cut alot of corners himself afterwards, and came out of them at some crazy speeds as well.

  162. Ratboy

    wtf are you talking about? Lewis won Germany.

  163. Luke, fair point regarding Kovalainen and all that’s been said about “letting them race” today. Kovalainen let him by in Germany, I don’t deny that, but I think it’s impossible to prove if it was team orders, a heat-of-the-moment racing judgement, a personal obligation Kovalainen felt or just another example of Kovi being ‘too nice a guy’ on track as he as often been called. It very well may have been team orders, it’s impossible to know, but I doubt it. I think it’s too murky of an example to pin Team Orders on compared to some of the blatant offenses of the past.

  164. Angry (albeit, a bit less now)
    7th September 2008, 22:09


    Not at all man.

  165. @ luke
    yeah but surely FIA wont let him overtake a Ferrari its just not aloud

    Its also a joke

  166. Kevin,

    i can see your side of the argument.

  167. Anyone which has raced a little bit knows that Hamilton ‘let him pass’ was incorrect. You can’t let him pass and take the slipstream as he passes to overtake in the next turn, because there’s no way that Hamilton, having done the chicane correctly, could have done that. So, he took an unfair advantage by cutting the chicane.

    Can’t you see that the overtake at La Source it’s because he was well positioned after the “let him pass” maneoveur?

  168. you’re 100% correct ratboy.

  169. In this video si clearly seen that lewis had no need to cut the chicane, he has lost the position and prefers to cut the chicane than simply stand behind kimi.


    He did it just to gain time, and he did it, it is clearly fair the penalty

    I dont see anything strange from kimi, he has won the position

  170. Angry (albeit, a bit less now)
    7th September 2008, 22:12

    Sorry, last post was meant to read…

    > Keir – where’s the petition please, I couldn’t find it

    > Luke – not at all man


  171. I am a F1 fan not any single driver but these twisted stewards are taking the racing out of F1. Kimi crashed his car end of story, at that time he was in the lead Lewis was second then Lewis took the lead,so why should he later be told that an incident that had nothing to do with Kimi crashing had cost him the win.F1 get your heads sorted give the win to McLaren.

  172. Extremely unfair decision…
    Even tough I think Hamilton’s move after letting Raikkonen pass was debateble, because he almost immediately began to attack, which means he effectively did NOT surrender his position (well, and that was a genuine ‘hard case’, as we say in legal studies), that made victory fall on undeserving hands… Massa was off pace all race long, running fast enough only to stay ahead of ‘the rest’ (in which I include Kovalainen) and salvage some points…

    Despite that, I will support those who say you’re wrong about Raikkonen… If Raikkonen was guilty of anything on that move, than Hamilton himself should have been punished a couple of times this season, since he’s by far the most aggressive driver on the field, both attacking and defending, and that’s precisely why I like so much watching him race…

    I just think FIA decisions are not moved by this or that team, but by their own interest of keeping the title fight alive as long as they can, no matter who’s in front or who’s chasing, like they did last year, when they decided not to strip the driver’s points after spygate…

    Still, I’m quite happy that Massa has a real shot at the title again :D

  173. A shocking weekend for the stewards – They started in GP2 by giving Bruno Senna a drive through penalty whilst in the lead for being released from his pit ‘dangerously’ and yet Massa gets a £4.85 fine for the same offence – don’t get me wrong I wouldn’t have wanted Massa to lose his lead because of that incident, but the blatant inconsistency is pathetic. Then they strip Hamilton of the win even though he must have backed off because along the S/F straight he was completely behind Raikkonen’s car – where’s the advantage? Admittedly Hamilton made quite an aggressive move into the hairpin but that manoeuvre is not disputed.. It makes a mockery of the rules and as an F1 fan makes me less enthusiastic about the sport. Poor show!

  174. Steven Roy – Thanks for that link, great to see it from onboard. However, it doesn’t “sound” like Lewis lifted off to let Kimi through. I suppose this footage might of actually counted against him.

  175. Angry (albeit, a bit less now)

    The petition is at: http://www.petitiononline.com/belgp08/petition.html

    and it’s nearly hit 3000 now.

  176. http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=General&id=43855

    The letter from the FIA stewards notifying McLaren of Hamilton’s penalty

  177. To thise saying the Race stewards are nothing to do with the FIA…

    As of this year there will be three different stewards officiating on each race, plus one extra person appointed by the FIA who will be at every race. This year that man will be Alan Donnelly. The FIA says having three different stewards at each race will allow them to select people whose nationalities are not currently represented in F1, allowing them to be neutral.

    Alan has in the past had business transactions with Ferrari.

    Draw your own conclusions.

  178. I think Alan was also on the grassy knoll when Kennedy was shot.

  179. Just adding my voice to the pathetic FIA decision voices and my support such as I can to Hamilton and the McLaren team. McLaren should certainly boycott the next race.

    Making Kovalinen do a drive through was also a pathetic decision – seems the teams will have to get overtaking moves approved on the corner by the stewards AS they attempt the overtake or be unsure as to what punishment might occur if theres a racing incident.

    Disgusted and irate.

  180. @Luke

    I think you’re on to something.
    Do the math mate, he could definately be the one !

  181. I cannot believe this decision, what a joke. As others as said Lewis should quit becuase the FIA will never let him win the World Championship.

    I hope the Manufactureres restart their break-away series. If Mosley-Gate had them thinking they should this should convince them it’s time to act.

  182. Max will have a lot of material to read :)

  183. Listen all, i know we’re all upset. i’m upset because instead of finishing second, dummy decided to crash. so we’re all upset here. but really, Lewis should quit? really? wouldnt it be better, and mean all that much more if he stayed and fought? where’s he going to go, the IRL. c’mon, guys and gals, lets be realistic.

  184. Cooling down a bit (not much), I read it like this.

    Lewis was eager for the rain to arrive and as soon as it came prepared to take Kimi, confident he could. He entered the chicane ‘testing’ Raikkonen, seeing whether he’d cede first place, but knowing that if KR held the inner line and risked a collision, he could run off. This duly happened (Kimi confirmed after the race he was going for 1st place and broke.) After taking the position off track, Lewis delayed fractionally and McLaren advised Lewis to give up the place, as per the regulations. Lewis – and this is the key point – then did what he thought was the bare minimum needed to give up the place, though he did so (passing from left to right behind Kimi). He evidently didn’t factor in the regulation ‘gain no sporting advantage,’ which frankly seems an open book regulation for the stewards, FIA or whoever, to decide the outcome of decisions as they see fit. So what *is* the applicable regulation?

    This said, I think Hamilton losing the 6 points to Massa is preferable to a 5-place grid penalty (say) at Monza. There’s no way the decision will be overturned on appeal, but rain is a good chance at least 1 or 2 of the remaining races and with only Massa really in the reckoning now, Lewis has a great chance of channelling his disappointment/anger and winning the WDC despite FIA’s best efforts.

    There was a lot of other stuff to discuss. Like why was Heikki so bad, and did Massa really have more fuel in Q3 than Raikonnen?

  185. “If there’s a penalty, then there’s something wrong because I was ahead going into that corner, so I didn’t gain an advantage from it.”

    Lewis Hamilton

  186. Angry (albeit, a bit less now)
    7th September 2008, 22:36

    Keir > thanks for the link!

    It’s common belief that Alan was also involved with the filming of the moon ‘landing’ ;)

  187. I’m not aware of what the rules say, but in most forms of racing—and even simply methods of transportation—an over-taking vehicle has no right of way; and further, an over-taking vehicle remains an over-taking vehicle until it becomes `clear ahead’, i.e. completely past the over-taken vehicle. Under that, Hamilton had no right of way in the chicane, Kimi had it all. That means that it wasn’t Kimi’s duty to avoid an accident, it was Hamilton’s.

    Thanks to Steven Roy’s post (#75) including Hamilton’s on-car video if the incident, it’s clear that while in the left-hander, Hamilton opted to cut the chicane. As beneboy posted in #80, that’s a clear violation of the rules (and his opinion that it wasn’t is clearly wrong). As I understand it, the remedy for a driver who has done so and gained an advantage from it, is to immediately surrender the position gained. Hamilton clearly did not immediately surrender the position; he drag-raced Kimi for it down the straight and only gave it up as they approached the next corner. As Rohan states in his post #47, Hamilton wound up much closer to Kimi than he would have been had he not cut the chicane. THAT’s why the penaly–he gained an unfair advantage.

    Someone also mentioned that Kimi had to swerve to avoid hitting Hamilton’s tire. I can’t help wondering if there actually was contact and it caused damage to Kimi’s tire—resulting in his subsequent spins. I don’t mean to suggest that anyone should be penalized if this was the case; just wondering why Kimi had so much trouble from then on.

    I’ll end by expressing my disappointment that so many posters have chosen to bash Massa as being worthless. Clearly, that isn’t the actual case.

  188. This is now the most commented on post on this website – shows how horrified everyone is with this decision. Watching the highlights now on ITV – I hope they comment on it and don’t sit on the fence. Spanish and Italian TV wouldn’t sit on the fence.

  189. What makes me extra angry with this decision is that Massa, who didn’t even try to win today, has picked up the win. Kimi and Lewis were both hard at it and entertaining the F1 world. Lewis, who was taking it to Kimi and creating the excitement has been slapped on the wrists!

    Guys, anyone remember the following incidents?

    1992 Germany – Mansell V senna – Mansell got no penalty for cutting the Ostkurve.

    1993 – Brundle got a penalty for cutting the Ostkurve (he was out of control at the time.

    Perhaps there needs to be further classification where the “cutting” a corner to gain advantage starts and ends.

  190. The decision to strip Lewis Hamilton of a magical hard earned victory is nothing short of a criminal act. The persons responsible for this should be prosecuted for fraud.
    Racing incidents happen and one accepts that there should be arbitration, however I remember numerous incidents involving Ferrari drivers where there drivers have acted with malice and acted to accrue points which allowed them to win world championships.
    A prime example was Schumacher ramming Damon Hill and not being penalised and being allowed , therefor, to win a world championship. Another example was last years failure to award the points to Lewis Hamilton after teams acruing points were disqualified but Hamilton was not promoted thus losing the world championship.
    Again, the people involved in the decision to strip Hamilton of a legitimate win should face CRIMINAL Prosecution for FRAUD. This debases the whole F1 sport to the level that destroyed World Wrestling turning it into a joke manipulated by a small number of corrupt individuals.

  191. i think the fact that this article is the most commented on [of all time] on this website, shows how unimpressed the F1 commuity is with the belguim stwewards, i hope Mclaren boycott the next race, watching ITV now, they had best comment on it!

  192. The penalty is draconian. Maybe it is “asinine” too, but it’s not the most asinine thing that happened today.

    That award goes to the moment where a “top-flight racing driver” decided that cutting corners was a viable strategy, because he knew there was no hazard involved in going off course. If the run-off areas in F1 circuits weren’t so farcically lenient, we wouldn’t be talking about this silly incident. There needs to be some kind of wall, or a gravel trap, in the place where Lewis so casually drove over – instead of a forgiving piece of tarmac.

  193. @Rob R.

    The gravel traps and walls were removed so that the cars could have somewhere to go in incidents such as these.

    Their removal has increased the amount of overtaking in recent years.

  194. for those in the UK – David Croft’s comments.


    Suggest this decision may disparage the drivers from trying to over take, at a time when F1 needs more overtaking.

  195. This decision wasn’t anything to do with Ferrari so why are people accusing them of anything. Stefano Dominicali said him self that the decision was hard to understand and they did not appeal anything or voice protests to the FIA.

    For sure this is a really odd decision but leave Ferrari and Massa out of it – he would have been pleased with second – he said so himself!!

  196. Steve – So why did they call Ferrari to the Stewards box to talk about this? What more information could they give to the stewards that would not have been to add pressure to the stewards?

  197. I don’t like Lewis Hamilton but stewards decision is unfair – He kicked Kimi’s ass in clean fight – I had no doubt about that.
    BTW: I’m Robert Kubica fan & I want to say one word to BMW team – Robert make a bad decision to resign contract with You!
    But I still have a dream about Koo-BEETS-a & Ferrari :)

  198. Just watching the replay and one thing is clear, the last 3 laps were just chaos.
    Rain coming onto the track while they all have old, dry tyres on – a few dodgy incidents but all of them were just wet racing incidents, including Lewis vs Kimi.
    Stewards got it wrong.

  199. Josh – Because that’s what they do when they investigate an incident between to racers….! They speak to the drivers and team bosses involved to get the various perspectives.

    I guess we’ll never know what was fully said to the stewards but I really can’t see them trying to claim any advantage out of this. Anyhow, we do what Ron Dennis can be like and he would have been really vocal if he thought Ferrari had a hand in this don’t you think?

  200. Steve H:

    I think people are angry at Ferrari because if they didn’t complain to the FIA, it means they didn’t think anything wrong happened and yet they are not above taking those free points even though they didn’t earn them. Kimi, Massa and Ferrari are going to keep quiet even though they know that they were beaten by a better team and driver today.

    However, do I believe Ferrari did not influence the decision? Not for a second.

  201. it’s a no brainer forget the bus stop chicane incident Lewis won clearly after the FIA’s should watch what happened after that was good racing!

  202. I guess I’m about the only one who thinks The Stewards were right…. Kimi did not push Lewis off, he took the racing line. Lewis then did not back off enough, he let him past but only just, so that he was in a better position that what he would have been if he had followed Kimi through the chicane.

  203. 178 ninguen:

    Thanks to your post, I watched that video again and it’s clear that Hamilton did not attempt to make the left-hander, he simply cut the corner. Had he not done so, he would have not been in position to pass Kimi when he did. (Hamilton was no doubt faster than Kimi at that point in the race, but that’s immaterial.) I think what the stewards ruled was that Hamilton gained an advantage by cutting the chicane that allowed Hamilton to not only (partially) pass Kimi coming out of the chicane, but also pass Kimi on the subsequent straight.

  204. … I also believe Massa should have been penalised at Valencia..

  205. Wow…200+ I feel like we have all bonded a little bit today. =)

    One thing is certain, no one knows how to dish out ZIE PUNISHMENT like Mosley and the FIA…

  206. teamorders,,,, you’re not alone, but I would like to keep my head on my shoulders…. There’s an army out there!!

  207. Such an extremely poor and unprofessional decision is nothing short of a “white collar crime” and clearly contradicts the old proverb: “what’s good for the goose is good for the gander”, looking back at the most recent race and the decision there. I trust now with such poor verdict that Bernie and his gaggle of RED Ecclestone geese are ecstatic!

  208. My favorite part of F1 is the dinnertime (I’m in the USA) check of the BBC/blogs, etc. to find out the official finishing order of the races.

    Is there any other sport where the rules are so complicated that it takes over 3 minutes for the referees to come to a decision? Is there any other sport where the final result is overturned with the frequency we see in F1? It’s completely pathetic.

    Why don’t we just cut out the cars and drivers completely and just proceed straight to the courtroom on Sundays? We could watch some intense objections by the McLaren camp, followed by a gutsy motion to dismiss by Ferrari! We could sit riveted as Renault cross-examine witnesses, and stare with disbelief at the precision handling of 11,000 pages of discovery.

  209. Bull.

    He wouldn’t have pushed that hard in that corner and made such a risky attempt if he’d known that he was risking retirement. …Or would he? If so he would have ended up retiring, or being seriously slowed down. Fact is, if there was a hazard there, he wouldn’t have been as close as he was to Raikkonen on the start/finish straight.

    And Hamilton says “I was ahead in that corner”. It’s ridiculous. He wasn’t ahead. He was *alongside* Raikkonen. What was he expecting Raikkonen to do – hit the brakes give up the position? He tried to pass him around the outside and it didn’t work, simple as that.

  210. Thank you everyone for your comments. I’ve been out at dinner this evening and I’ve not had chance to read them all yet but rest assured I will as soon as possible.

    Can I also apologise for the technical problems on the site this evening. Obviously there’s a lot of traffic but from talking to my hosts it seems the fault is unrelated and just an unfortunate coincidence. Of course I’m not happy about it and am working with them to find a solution. That may well prove to be moving to a different host, in which case suggestions for an alternative would be welcome: you can contact me here

  211. Why 25secs? Lets assume guilt, usually 25secs would include a pitstop for fuel as well.

    Secondly Mclaren sought a verdict from Charlie Whiting who thought the incident had been resolved fairly and this was while the race was in progress, to contrive a result after the fact with an abatory 25secs leaves plenty of room for the conspiracy theorists.

    Thirdly the rules for F1 are never black and white, but the perceived response to gaining an advantage is to let the man past, this was done, why complicate the issue with subjectivity. Lewis was in a substantially faster car by this stage.

  212. michael counsell
    7th September 2008, 23:30

    Its a tricky one but if he’d braked enough to take the corner he wouldn’t have been anywhere near Raikkonen to have a chance into turn 1.

    At the same time once he’d let Raikkonen past how can you judge how much you should back off when you are racing.

    Maybe they should put some grass down there or something to stop drivers thinking cutting the chicane is better than taking a slower line through the corner. As soon as Hamilton went over the chicane and let Raikkonen halfway down the straight I knew he would try to pass him.

    The penalty seems harsh as Hamilton gained no advantage over Massa or Heidfeld but what else can you really do?

  213. Shameful decision.

  214. In this case. I think the stewards were correct. Lewis did let Kimi re-pass him, for about a split second. He may have obeyed the exact letter of the law, but the spirit of that particular rule, and all its intents and perposes, were completly ignored.
    If McLaren’s appeal is sucessful, it will weaken the strength of the no-cutting-the-cicane rule. And that’s the last thing we want.

  215. @ Fras – good point, but don’t forget that 25 seconds is the usual equivalent for the drive-through penalty (and Glock received the same sanction).

    So, I guess you’re right, FIA should revise it for the next races, but Hamilton is not the first one to be “misjugded”

  216. Joke of a decision.

    Why bother changing the technical regs next year when drivers are punished for having a go at overtaking someone.

    Contrast this with British Superbikes or Moto GP, the race between Stoner and Rossi at Laguna Seca was a bit like Arnoux- Villeneuve in the 80s, they were all over the place but neither was punished because its part of the sport and it excites the fans. That’s what Formula 1 should be about.

    Surely the people who run F1 must realise the damage decisions like this make to the image of the sport…….errrmm sorry what a stupid thing to say of course they don’t, because its a business not a sport.

  217. As many of you have stated, Lewis did not attempt to take the second left hander of the chicane.
    Had he done so, Kimi would have cut across him and it would have been called a racing incident, as they would have undoubtedly come into contact (and Kimi would NEVER have got a penalty)- Kimi was not going to give Lewis space.
    So Lewis is guilty of avoiding a racing accident.

    As for all of you stating that ‘he gained momentum’ you are evidently unaware of the laws of physics. Lewis was in front, dropped out of the throttle, and as they passed the s/f line (with Kimi’s nose in front) was traveling 6kph slower, so he had not gained momentum (unless McLaren have developed invisible elastic that they attatch to their opponents car).

    Lewis passed him because he had more faith in his ability to stop and turn the car (this proved to be founded), Kimi simply bottled covering the inside.

    OK, next argument, he was closer to Kimi’s car down the next straight.
    Than what? When he was NEXT to Kimi’s car when Kimi was creating an accident by closing up the inside?

    Lets cast our minds back to a VERY similar incident, in the terms of gaining an unfair advantage, IDENTICAL.

    Lap 2. Kimi overshot La source, to the point of he had to go around the spun Lewis to AVOID AN ACCIDENT. Did he return to the track asap?
    Like hell he did, he buried the throttle and took the shortest possible line OFF THE TRACK to go through Au Rouge (is that how you spell it) with a greater speed to set up Lewis on the next straight. He gained an advantage by not staying on the track, but he went there to AVOID an accident.
    There is ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT in my mind that the FIA would ever question that Kimi did the right thing under this circumstance though.

    They know which side their breads buttered on.


  218. Any rule that is open to interpretation is a bad one in my book and I go back to the point, if Mr Whiting did give his blessing then that should be that. There was an opportunity whilst the race was in progress to resolve this fairly which Mclaren tried to do but I fear judging by what I have read above it appears to me that there is a two tier system in place within F1.

    A great race spoilt for all concerned. It would be interesting to get Kimi’s take on the whole abortion.

  219. It seems that:
    1) Way back, can’t find the post, someone pointed out correctly that there is little or no clarity in the rule/rules which may or may not have applied – THAT seems to be the problem which leads to all this.
    2) Disappointments and unfair (or just unfairly harsh, depending on one’s point of view) penalties aside, the video of the last 5 minutes is amazing stuff, the “real thing”, shall we say – made me go back and look at Villeneuve vs. Arnoux, which made me look at more Villenueve, whose spirit took me back to the 50’s and 60’s and then forward to the 90’s and all that beautiful “racing”, and thus I think that
    3) the reason there are so many posts here, and that we keep going with it, is that it is such a beautiful and amazing sport that no amount of bureaucratic meddling of any kind can prevent two remarkably talented guys from risking the championship, their reputations and their safety to WIN A RACE, and more than that to win at SPA.

  220. In recent weeks on this forum, we have all discussed ways in which Formula One can be made more of an entertaining spectacle, how it can be improved. Only last week, there was a great piece on this site debating F1’s fortunes in the United States, and how ‘they’ can be improved.
    The usual arguments were put forward. The new circuits are not challenging enough, the drivers aren’t as axcessable, the cars are not easy to overtake.
    For me, and this is not the first time I have said it in twenty four years, it is moments like today that are the biggest turn off to all but the most ardent of F1 fans.
    Today we witnessed one of the most thrilling battles in years, by two of the most gifted open wheel drivers. They gave no quarter in their quest for glory, and none was given, even to team mates. All the frustrations, the pressure, was released, the gloves had finally come off.
    How I would have loved, to have talked to you all about the quality of Kimi Raikkonen and Lewis Hamilton today, about the ferocity of their battle, the skill that was involved.
    Sadly, all we can talk about is what followed, not on the track where it belongs, but in a boardroom, with men in suits, Italian made I would wager.
    Yet again, at a time when the championship is coming to the boil, we are faced with more off track scandal and more politics and appeals. Three hundred million people saw Hamilton lift off the throttle to let Raikkonen by, and the same number saw him drive, ‘on slick tyres’ to the chequered flag, whilst Raikkonen speared the concrete.
    Three hundred million, of which I would imagine all but a fraction would agree, that we were cheated today at Spa.
    It reminded me of Suzuka 1989, when Senna won the race after being delibrately shunted off the circuit by his team mate, only to be disqualified and denied not only the win, for which he deserved, but the championship.
    Yes, Senna had taken the escape road, he had broken the rules. You could argue that he deserved to get kicked out, but you cannot say the same of Hamilton.
    Had Hamilton’s foot been planted during the trip across the chicane, he would have easily beaten Raikkonen, but on returning to the track, he lifted!
    He lifted, end of story. Raikkonen, thinking that the came was up, was caught napping as Hamilton counterattacked and made the pass at La Source. Raikkonen even showed a little frustration by nurfing Hamilton’s rear tyre as if in defiance. Nothing wrong with any of that, good racing from two great drivers.
    My main complaint is that two weeks ago we were treated to an utterly boring, totally predictable race in Valencia, where the only real action took place in the pits. Even then, when Ferrari released Massa into a dangerous situation, there was no punishment. No point deduction.
    Still, I can imagine that tonight, Bernie Ecclestone and Max Mosley and co are enjoying a nice meal around a big open fire, congratulating themselves on a nice days work. The championship is now alot more closer, McLaren have been pissed off again, and the fans are demanding their money back in droves.
    Business as usual then in the casa Ecclestone and Mosley. Oh, and by the way, I bet the meal mainly consisted of pasta, lots and lots of pasta, sent with kind regards, from all their friends in Marenello.

  221. Well I read to about entry 95 and gave up.

    Lewis did outbrake Kimi into the new Tilke busstop, but being on the outside, the rain pissing down (apologies Keith) and Kimi sliding wide whilst groping for traction was either going to stuff both himself and Kimi into the start of the pit wall, or cut the chicane. He did the right thing, then lifted and having gained position on the exit. Telemetry doesn’t lie, neither does all the footage. Kimi exited the corner behind. Lewis lifted and ceded the lead back to Kimi. 6kph advantage to Kimi across start finish. Start/finish IS the straight. Kimi had the lead by over a car length – must be true as Lewis swung behind the Ferrari to outbrake Kimi into the first corner.

    So after the corner in question, where Hamilton avoided collision with Kimi, where with nowhere else to go, by cutting the corner, he gave back the advantage by reducing speed and allowing the other driver past, who (Kimi) then was carrying more speed into the subsequent turn at LaSource.

    Well just damn that stupid Hamilton for racing – F1 isn’t about THAT anymore. Oh, Charlie Whiting, the FIA representative at the meeting agreed that Hamilton complied with the rules? Oh you know what – just stuff it.

    Brilliant racing by both Kimi and Lewis. This race was everything we fans cry out for – real wheel to wheel racing with the best drivers bubbling to the top (if only Alonso could have stayed out there on dry rubber!). FIA have been wasting years scratching their cumulative head trying to work out how to improve overtaking in F1. Overturn this frankly effing stupid decision and you will have made some inroads.

  222. Even me, Kimi fan, think penalty was a little bit hard. I also did read what Kimi said after race and his point of view. He said that without Hamilton cutting that shican he would not be ready take over Kimi soon after. Kimi also said that if hamilton would follow behind Kimi threw that corner he would not be in positition where he could take over Kimi because he would not have speed in that moment, but because shikan he had that speed what he did need. Best comment was when Kimi said that if there would be wall Hamilton could not come threw that wall, so because its “just” shican drivers should still think about it in same way than it would be ball. LOL.

    So like we see there is different point of views about this whole situation.
    I still think that taking win away from somebody AFTER race is too strong penalty. They could ask him drive threw in next lap or give him 10 grid penalty for next race if they had to give penalaty.

  223. AmericanTifosi

    ‘He may have obeyed the exact letter of the law, but the spirit of that particular rule, and all its intents and perposes, were completly ignored.’

    This is the central point. He followed the law, which is far as I know stipulates giving up the position. This is high-speed F1, not pool, so ‘returning to the same position’ would be ludicruous to expect. Hamilton also has *his* rights as a driver, which is to be given a coherent set of regulations with which he can comply. Assuming for good faith that he cut the chicane to avoid an accident (or due to loss of control of the car), then the stewards had to decide whether he complied ‘to the exact letter of the law’ in returning the position. The idea of ‘sporting advantage’ is absurd in this case. Where’s it measured from and to? Hamilton was ahead slightly approaching the chicane, meaning he lost out by being forced off track, and Kimi soon spun after Le Source and lost his position (and crashed after that). Who decides the timeframe or section of track for this ‘sporting advantage’?

    It’s a completely incoherent decision that would or will radically cut back on drivers attempting to overtake. Imagine it happening again. What’s Hamilton to do? Tell his team: ‘Look, ask the stewards how many seconds behind is OK?’ and then wait 3 hours for a reply?? It’s a racing situation, the rule has to be simple and immediately comprehensible to the driver (and viewing public).

  224. @226 American Tifosi
    So this would include Vettel too then, the guy who complained so vociferously about Hamiltons pass at Magny Cour, but continually outbraked himself at Circuit Gilles Villenueve and scampered across the chicane lap after lap when approached by Kovvalinen to protect his place?

    That was gaining an advantage.

    If your talking about ‘the spirit of the law’ yikes, didn’t you know- Ferrari killed it ‘cos they could gain an advantage. It doesn’t exist anymore.

  225. Just read an article where Niki Lauda, triple world champion said: “This is the worst judgment in the history of F1. The most perverted judgment I have ever seen. It’s absolutely unacceptable when three functionaries (the stewards) influence the championship like this”.

    That says it all, doesn’t it. Apparently the whole paddock is in uproar, except predictably Ferrari and probably that idiot Alonso. I reiterate, if Massa was a true sportsman, he wouldn’t accept such a hollow victory, but maybe F1 drivers sign away sportsmanship when they join Ferrari. Looks like the perfect home for Alonso and Kubica.

    Charlie Whiting was right when he said Lewis hadn’t done anything illegal. I am still in shock, have a headache, feel sick. This has pee’d off a load of F1 fans – the petition is now up to 4,672 signatures. This will NOT go away, I sincerely hope.


  226. @ David:
    “It’s a racing situation, the rule has to be simple and immediately comprehensible to the driver.” Directly and well-said, straight to the heart of the matter.
    (and why doesn’t Nikki say THAT, if he wants press so much) –

  227. Does seem like another FIA v McLaren decision
    Not a Mc fan or a Lewis believer BUT come on…
    If this decision needed to be made it should have been made during race time and not retrospectively…
    F1 will not win any new fans with amatuer decisions like this

  228. It still seems a HUGE coincidence to me that the most “perverted decision in the history of F1” has been given to a black man. Sickened.

  229. too bad this has to descend, with various epithets revealing the venality of some “contributors”.

    To add a little spice, here is Stefano D.:

    Q. We all know what the decision of the stewards is now, but could you tell us what was your first impression, your first reaction when you saw this manoeuvre between Kimi and Lewis?

    SD: Personally, I think it was a little bit extreme. It’s normal that when you attack that you are racing but the problem is that the advantage that may take by doing a manoeuvre and this is the key point of it, so I think that that’s the focus that has to be considered.

    What is really the advantage that you are taking in such conditions that can be used in the second situation at the first corner. That, in my view, is the most important thing. But this is racing.

  230. The petition at http://www.PetitionOnline.com/belgp08/petition.html is now at 5000 and rising fast :-)

  231. George, look at the onboard footage. Kimi bumped Lewis off.

  232. This is shaking the pillar of love I have for this sport.

  233. What a farce F1 is becoming!

    Unbelievable The FIA [FerrariInvestmentAgency] are showing utter biased towards the Red team.

    I feel this is overspill from last seasons “Spygate”

    The FIA have to review their stewards soon other wise no-one will watch Formula One

    The FIA Court should and hopefully will overturn the decision otherwise a good few fans will be turned away from watching.


  234. Mika, have you ever raced a car yourself? Kimi couldn’t have done anything else at that point other than spin himself out trying to avoid Hamilton, who was OFF THE RACING LINE. He had to stay where he was and that meant bumping Hamilton, who put himself there, Kimi didn’t put him there. You don’t understand race craft.

    Sorry but you are all wrong and the FIA is right. Try not to be so parochial and pull your heads out of your bums. Hamilton lost his head and acted like a fool, not for the first time either.

    Nice ‘petition’ by the way. HAHAHAHAHAHA! I wonder how many of you have signed petitions against burning coal for electricity or child slavery, you know… real issues. Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. Mebe you could all meet up in a pub somewhere and have a big cry?

  235. Do we really expect decency and integrity in a sport run by a foul old man who enjoys orgies re-enacting dubious eras in history?

    Not surprising really.

  236. Hey George
    do not agree that Kimi should have been awarded the race victory – Lewis did not put him into the wall he managed to do that himself

    I think the duel between Kimi and Lewis in those last 10 laps was an epic battle – aggresive racing but mostly fair
    also mate please leave racism and the small minded comments to yourself (that goes to S Hughes also) .. We do not need that **** here. And i am sure (or atleast hope) that racism did not have any part in this decision

  237. George, I am a parent of a black child, and this will show him that if you have a unique and special talent, and that talent is nurtured by a loving and determined parent, you succeed in all the categories up to your ultimate goal, you work hard and are decent and sportsman like, don’t drink or smoke or swear, and then you reach the apex of the sport you have been working towards and striving towards all your life, if you are black, you might as well not have bothered. You will never know how upsetting this is. I don’t care if no-one else attributes this to racism. There are enough people throughout the world who are outraged enough about this and yet don’t think that is the reason as the unfairness is bad enough. But I feel that it is the reason and so do many people I know. I am entitled to say so without inspiring such vilification. It makes me wonder why you don’t want racism to be mentioned. Allow me my opinion please.

  238. Petition now up to 5,250. That is a lot in one evening.

  239. George, if you have all the answers then tell me why Massa was completely unpunished for driving off course to gain a competitive advantage (and a position) at the end of Fuji 2007 (also in the wet). It’s a remarkably similar situation.


  240. George- Kimi lost his head. If you care to read any of the F1 sites all are unanimous in their disbelief for this decision, even the Ferrari fan sites.

    I’ve only being watching F1 32 yrs. Maybe you can enlighten me oh learned one.

  241. *sigh* S Hughes I am a Greek/Australian and grew up in a town where I was the only person without anglo origins so I am no stranger to racism. But reaching for the racism card to explain things that don’t go your way, especially in this situation, is drawing a pretty long bow.

    Brett M my comment on **** was quite obviously sarcastic. Sorry if you didn’t get it.

    To put it simply, while Hamilton obeyed the letter of the law, he didn’t obey the spirit of the law. That’s how a judge would say it. He let Mini past, but only in such a way that would ensure he’d be able to pass him again.

    That isn’t what you’re supposed to do when you’ve gained an unfair advantage from cutting a corner. And no it doesn’t matter that Kimi hit him. Kimi was on the racing line and Hamilton put himself in a position to be hit.

  242. lol, glad you are finally realising your place in the grand scheme of things bernification. Yes Kimi lost his head too, but Lewis did it first with one event leading to the other. Hell maybe they should have given the race to one of the Torro Rosso’s for effort.

  243. Those who say that Hamilton veered off track because he was out of control and off line going into the chicane should check the video and see which car locked up.

    It’s fair to say that this has polarised opinions but if you were to put all F1 fans into 2 groups, 1: Ferrari/Massa/Kimi fans and McLaren/Hamilton haters, 2: Everyone else, how many people in Group 2 would say the punishment was correct, and how many in Group 1 would say the opposite.

    Good hard racing that has been ruined by the stewards.

  244. Hey George, the spirit of the law means nothing- this is the greatest legacy of the Schumacher era, win at all costs.

    Hamilton could not have used his momentum to pass Kimi, as he LIFTED, travelling 6kph slower than Kimi across the S/F line as KImi nosed ahead. What is he supposed to do- call him on his cell phone and ask when it’s conveniant to pass?

    Kimi went off track on lap 2, buried the throttle across the run off area, and used the advantage to out drag Lewis up the straight after Au Rouge. Unfair advantage. Spirit of the law?

    Doesn’t exist mate.
    (Nice to meet you by the way)

  245. George sigh, the race card? Next you’ll be saying “chip on your shoulder” or “pc gone mad”. The spirit of the law? Now it’s my turn to laugh hysterically. Even some Alonso fans and Ferrari fans are disgusted with this decision.

    I want Massa to speak out and condemn it now. Anything less is a disgrace and has blackened him in my eyes.

  246. I’ve read on other forums that Ferrari were part of the complaint, and Kimi was on the ITVF1 replay whining about how Lewis was unfair.
    Suppose anything to distract from his stupid mistake.

    Domeniccali (or however you spell it) was explaining on ITV about momentum- strange how he doesn’t understand the concept, despite running a team.

    This is really going to put them down in peoples eyes.

    With you on that George- would have prefered Kubica though- always have money on him as my girlfriends Polish, then when he wins- she’s in a good mood-Kerching- double reward.lol

  247. S Hughes, you’re not the only one that thinks that race has a part to play in all of this. I do too, I’m not afraid to bring it up, it is indeed the “elephant in the room”
    A lot of people won’t or can’t face up to the fact that this is an issue. Lewis will not win the championship they don’t want him. He is good enough to pull in the viewers and promote it around the world, but he’s not good enough to be the face of world championship.
    Massa won’t be speaking out, he won’t care as long as wins.

  248. I think this guy has explained all this matter some years ago:


  249. Thanks Lynn, we shouldn’t be afraid to voice our opinions just because some people want to convince us that racism doesn’t exist, espcially after the racism in Barcelona earlier this year.

    I’ve just been on http://www.racefreaks.nl, a Dutch website, and with the help on online translation, they are also saying on the forums that this decision stinks. The whole world thinks this decision stinks (except maybe Spain).

  250. Any doubts about the dismal nature of the stewards decision, check out this link, a view of the chicane pass from Lewis’s cockpit:


    Apart from showing the awesone speed of his overtaking maneouvres, the shot clearly shows that Hamilton was taking the chicane cleanly and swerved to avoid a collision when cut across by Raikkonen. This is precisely what he started post-race. Since he was already level or even slightly past Kimi before being forced off-track, how exactly did he *gain* a sporting advantage?

    Great film while it stays up!

  251. No one’s saying racism doesn’t exist, I just personally think this has more to do with the color of his car than the color of his skin. The FIA has been making life difficult for McLaren since long before Lewis came along. We’re all entitled to our opinion, though, and of course we’ll never know the true behind-closed-doors justification for this farce to happen.

  252. Kevin, I appreciate your reply. I don’t mind if people don’t agree with me about racism, but I do mind if people berate me for having my own opinion on a forum. At least we agree it was a farce.

  253. I think the chain of events that took place yesterday was a result of over aggressive driving by Lewis.Yes he did let Kimi by but did he really loose enough momentum?

    About penalties. In Valencia was it Massa’s fault or Ferrari’s?
    and about FIA being helping Ferrari . McLaren shouldn’t be racing in first place this year because of what they did last year. FIA was kind enough to let them compete.

    Hamiltons penalty. He wasnt awarded a penalty in Fuji last year when he caused the vettel weber clash . Was he ?

  254. Hi Alvin, can’t sleep as I’m so angry about this! Hope you’re well.

  255. Some people want the FIA to win the championship for Lewis. Massa’s pitlane incident in Valencia involved a contender and back-marker. The incident itself had no bearing on the championship, Sutil would have to have moved over for Massa anyway. The incident at Spa between Hamilton and Raikonnen involved two contenders and had a direct bearing on the championship. Lewis clearly gained an advantage. Had the FIA done nothing, you would say “great non-call by the stewards” or “way to let them race!” The non-call in Valencia was of course a terrible crime, craven cowardice shown by the FIA! Speaking of bad non-calls involving Lewis, what about his moving block of Alonso at Indy last year? Or how about Lewis chopping across Massa at Monza in turn 1 last year? Hmm?

  256. It was a great race between 2 of the 3 drivers i love and hate. I enjoyed it until Kimi lost out, but that was his own mistake and nothing to do with Hamilton.
    It is an unjust decision and should be thrown out.

    I can’t stand Ham or Ferrari, if Kimi had stayed on track i might look at this another way but this helps Massa so for once and i hope never again i say Hamilton does not deserve THIS biased penalty.

    Max/Donnelly/Schu/Todt/Ferrari/FIA are killing F1
    Massa should refuse 2 points, but he will not because he knows all the effort is for his benefit.

    I hope Kimi stays in F1, and i really hope he gets out of Ferrari.

  257. Anyone who argues that Hamilton SHOULD have been punished for this is flat out incapable of being fair and rational. The fact of the matter is that Hamilton LET KIMI PASS, as the sporting regulations require. There is nothing in the regulations stating that drivers going off course cannot put themselves the opportunity to make a move in the next corner; the regulations only say that they must let another driver pass if an advantage is gained.

    That is the truth of the matter. Period. There are plenty of examples of this in the past few years where the driver in a position analogous to Hamilton’s was not punished.

    This is a terrible day for the sport and shows a clear pro-Ferrari bias within the FIA.

  258. the lmiit (232)- I agree with everything, and I think the USA article you mention may have been my guest post- my thnaks to you if that is correct!

    Kevin (217)- I am very, very diusappointed by the turn of events after today’s race, but your comment did give me quite a laugh!

    While this incident will not dimish my appreciation for the sport of Formula 1, it dose sicken me a great deal to see a good battle betwene two great drivers ruined by miserable post-race rulings. I’m still new to this sport, but to me this ruling by the FIA is nothing more than a few people in positions of power wanting to act like big shots. We have all heard grumblings from people in all walks of the F1 community about the FIA having a bias in favor of Ferrari and/or against McLaren. Until today I did not believe this was true and dismissed such talk, but today’s ruling was blatent proof of this if there was ever such a thing.

    The decision was 100% unfair, and if the FIA dose not overturn it, the sport is going to recieve a black eye that will do permenent damage, runing a great championship battle that F1 badly needed after the spygate mess of 2007.

  259. Murray beat Nadal, anyone notice?

    If Kimi had stayed on track and come 1st or 2nd, would there have been a (Massa) biased investigation?

  260. Probably, Paul.

    Here’s my thought: even if you lose 6kph, you can get most or all of that back with a tow. And that’s what Lewis had.

    But the penalty was WAY too harsh and applied incorrectly. Given the way things stood with their pace, Lewis shouldn’t have lost the win.


  261. Wow, there is some amazing stuff on this board:

    1. Lewis drag raced Kimi down the straight

    Really? What was he supposed to do. Come to a complete stop, mirror, mirror, head-check, signal? Allow both red cars past to make sure? Come off it.

    2. Lewis didn’t surrender the position.

    Okay. So being ahead, letting unfairly passed competitor past and tucking in *behind* Kimi is not surrendering the position? Give me a break.

    3. Lewis wouldn’t have made the corner

    What complete and utter rubbish. Kimi robustly defended his line and Lewis did the smart thing and went for a trip across the strips. I’d do it, you’d do it, we’d all do it if given the immense privilege of driving an F1 car. Or should he again have pulled gently over to the side, mirror, mirror etc.?

    I must admit to being completely mystified by some of the comments here, and not just the complete ignorance of Kimi’s trip on to the run-off area to gain speed, walloping Lewis at La Source post-pass and then passing Lewis under waved yellows and not allowing him through. If Kimi had done what he should have, he would have done the exact same thing Lewis did and nobody would be moaning because there’d have been no penalty.

    As a Ferrari driver, Kimi probably thinks he’s untouchable which is why he kept racing. Thankfully, karma stepped in and a barrier jumped out in front of him (perhaps the barrier should be penalised…or at least the barrier designer…or the workers who placed it there…and the guy who mows the grass etc. etc.)

    Having said that, those who say Lewis is being penalised for being black, get a freakin’ grip. That is pure rubbish. If there was racism in the sport, why didn’t Nakajima get done for smashing Alonso off the tarmac at Valencia? The FIA are a lot of things, but racist, as an organisation, ain’t one of them.

    I would imagine that Bernie is furious with the stewards. There needs to be the same system that the V8 Supercars has – the same people at every race so at least there is consistent inconsistency.

    Oh wait, there already is that – red cars win, everyone else gets penalised…exaggeration yes, but today, there is little argument against it.

  262. This is one of the most disgusting decisions I have ever seen (and I have been following F1 since the days of gleeming black Lotus’!)

    It’s as bad as the days of the 1/2 points era. Results to follow in 2 weeks time at a court room near you. etc.

    Those stewards are surely fiddling a betting scam. But now they are making it too obvious. I’d quite like to bet on a running race of stewards, all lined up, buck-neykid, 3 laps of Spa, in the rain, and they can have advetising on the rear ends ;-)

  263. I can’t see Kimi as “a Ferrari” driver in the Schumacher or Massa sense. i would rather see him in a BMW or even a Brawn Honda.
    Kimi is just “a racer”. (So Brawn does not want him).
    For me the bias is all for Massa (ie Shumacher who re-lives his racing life through Massa.

    I am pleased that Kimi said win or bust as that’s the Kimi i follow, but hey Hamilton did not put Kimi into the wall.

    Journeyer, 6kph is not much in a short distance, but a tow is part and parcel so i can’t fault that. If Kimi had held his line instead of jinking to his left he would have stayed in front but for how long? Ham seemed to be getting the better of Kimi in the tyre battle.

    I really don’t like defending anything Ham does, i need to go beat myself up.

  264. i generally try to keep my nose out of this sort of thing. all it does is stir the pot and boil my blood but in this case i am going to make an exception.

    the fia as it has done for years is braking a cardinal rule and abounding the fans. its one of the few things red neck racing (nascar) has gotten right for years. the race must always be settled on the track.

    lets say for the sake of argument that hamilton did gain a performance advantage going wide and that he did not fully surrender the position to kimi. the fia’s penalty should be implemented in the next race.

    it was a grate race and many of the fine people on this board have said it was only to take back their statements due to what a group of men did behind closed doors. i would argue that regardless of what these men do it was a grate race!

    as for the ruling i don’t know what was argued behind those closed door. but i will say this the guy on the inside line has the corner. hamilton would have pushed kimi or even ron dennis out if it gave him the lead and that is there job.

    in the master conspiracy plan what does the fia stand to truly gain from manipulating the out come of a races? i my mined it seams as though it only give max room to create a new “independent” governing body.

    secondary notes: i have been reading this forum from the beginning of the season and find it to be the very best forum i have ever come across. please keep up the good work!

    i am not a nascar fan. as i type i am wearing the f2005 tshirt i bought in shanghai.

  265. The obvious way to ensure fair decisions in the future is too hook the stewards up to lie detectors, I’m sure they found it quite difficult delivering this ruling with a straight face.

    As tempting as a boycott may sound, they are probably contractually bound to appear. But some subtle protest might be in order, as long as they are very careful not to give Max any reason to bloody his whip again.

  266. Paige: “That is the truth of the matter. Period. There are plenty of examples of this in the past few years where the driver in a position analogous to Hamilton’s was not punished.”

    Alonso in 2005 did exactly what Lewis did and did get the same punishment.

  267. I’m a Ferrari fan but nonetheless a sportman at heart , and believe Lewis won that race fair and square. However , let’s not get carried away and start saying Kimi cut him at the chicane , because if one studies the race , he had taken the exact same line through the previous 42 laps , and if Lewis had not cut the chicane , he would also not have passed Kimi so soon after , and possibly Kimi would not have pushed and crashed as he did. That’s probably what the stewards considered and decided he had gained an unfair advantage , although shoe on the other foot , I must agree Kimi probably would not have got a penalty. Sad. And Lewis would still probably have passed him after that anyway. Also impressive to notice how Lewis has learned this year to control himself better than last year – evidenced by the way he followed Heikki , and Kimi for part of the race , realising he was ahead of Massa , which is after all his main target.

  268. Absolutely horrible decision, i am beginning to hate F1. Ferrari holds F1w1 to ransom, F1 cant piss of Ferrari simply because Ferrari had threatened to leave F1 and start a new series.

  269. As for how soon Lewis attacked, HE DID NOT HAVE THREE LAPS TO DO IT, he had to cede the position and get on with the business of getting it back – the race was coming to an end, the rain was getting worse. Don’t forget the kid was flying at 180mph in the wet on the wrong tyres and still made a decision that most of you sitting in your sofas (including the stewards) are second guessing hours later clearly with little success.

    By the way it should be remembered that if a racing incident is punished after the grand prix it converts to a 25 seconds penalty – one wonders why Massa was fined in Valencia instead of being given the stipulated penalty?

  270. I am an American F1 fan. I’m an absolute die hard. I am the product of a man who drove a Porsche 911 in SCCA club races in the 1960’s and loved road racing. Be it Can-Am, Trans-Am, Cart, Champ Car or the penultimate, F1 my father saw to it that I understood what an apex was. I remember watching Jackie Stewart absolutely owning the Nordschliefe on a VHS tape that he rented/acquired from God knows where. I remember my father teaching me to place my hands on the steering wheel at 11 o’clock and 2 O’clock. And what opposite lock is. I remember him taking me to a go kart track not far from our house just to illustrate why an inside line is faster than an outside line.

    I remember seeing pictures of Jacky Ickx blasting through the impossibly steep Eau Rouge/Radillon complex.

    I remember another VHS tape of two men who’s name’s were unpronouncable banging wheels around a track in France that was named after mustard.

    I’m a 26 year old hipster night owl who cannot justify paying for cable television. I woke up very early to watch what is almost always an amazing race on an old, fast circuit. It’s basically the highlight of my year. And I watched it at a coffee shop, online over small cup of black coffee with my girlfriend (also an fervent f1 fan), much to the bewilderment of Northern Ohio churchgoers. And it was exhillarating to watch two of the best drivers in the world bang wheels at the bus stop chicane, tangle at La Source and blast off into Eau Rouge… then rain.

    I couldn’t have asked for anything more.

    I am a rarity among American motor racing fans. There is a subtlety and grace about Formula One that tends to get overlooked and even ridiculed my the “average american”. And this holds true especially when some post race ruling overturns what was a perfect race.

    The truth is that races like the 2002 Austrian gp and the 2005 USGP, for instance, get more press over here than brilliant races like this year’s British grand prix do. This tends to alienate the average american sports fan. Maybe it’s because on some level we are kind of xenophobic and prone to mocking anything European.


    The point that I’m getting to here is this; had Hamilton retained his win, the race might have shown NASCAR America that F1 does include things like passing and racing and, uh, excitement. The judgement of the stewards negated that. It was yet another arbitrary call in favor of Ferrari.

    Who’s ready for GP1?

  271. The joke is that the rules are so open to interpretation. “Gained an advantage” – in whose eyes and are those eyes or singular “one eyed”? One seriously would have to question whether Ferrari would have been penalised in exactly the same circumstances.
    Hamilton is not going to crash his car into Kimi just to stay on the track. He would be more concerned about finishing ahead of Massa. Hence the safe option of bailing out in the cicane. If he hadn’t tried to pass under brakes at the cicane he would have been in exactly the same “draft position” down the straight as he was after letting Kimi pass. Where is the advantage???
    I agree that if Kimi had finished there would have been much less of a likelyhood of an inquiry.

  272. I’m a Ferrari fan and Ive had money on them dominating this season since the start…. but this descision is just a farce and I’m starting to reconsider my loyalties. I think I may go back to BTCC.. Much more interesting anyhow I guess. Roll on Brands Hatch Sunday after next!!! :D

  273. The thing is, that I don’t think has been said, the overtaking move that hamilton made on the next corner was an out breaking move, not a slip streaming out dragging move, so even though Hamilton was close up to Kimi’s gearbox it was the fact that he was driving quicker and had more grip in the corner that he was able to get past straight away. if the telemetry is saying he was going 6kph slower that kimi when they crossed the line this would support that, he didn’t necessary gain any advantage by only just letting kimi past, he lost his own momentum which couldn’t, if my understanding of physics is right, be made up through slip streaming on that short straight.

    I’m no fan of Lewis, can’t really stand his attitude, but for me this just wrecks one of the most exciting bits of F1 racing in years, can’t remember when I was last on the edge of my seat!

  274. From reading the comments it is clear that many people see the ‘incident’ in terms defined by their preferences for Ferrari or McLaren. For me the problem is the punishment, it is far too contrived to have a punishment which puts Hamilton 3rd thereby just maintaining a 2pt advantage over Massa. Here we have a stewards room seemingly motivated by keeping the championship as tight as possible.

    The ‘incident’ is debatable, two places on the grid for the next race would have been more correct. Putting Hamilton behind Massa was absurd.

  275. Keith, I take great offense to comment no 273. This site is for F1 fanatics, not people trying to smear other races. You are disgraceful.

  276. I mean Mr Man is disgraceful,not you Keith.

  277. andrew, it looked like lewis was carrying more speed before they braked, so i think he still got some tow from kimi.

  278. not only has the stewards decision shown the worst of the FIA but the worst in us.

    some of the comments are awful, but congrats to Keith for such a diverse convo.

  279. another point that has come to my mind!
    recall on lap 2 when hamo spun, kimi went wide onto run off to avoid an accident (familiar action anyone?) he then drafted hamo through eau rouge and passed into les combes!
    that was never redressed so how was that any differant?

  280. Totally agree with you on last comment Sush.

  281. steve thompson
    8th September 2008, 8:42

    The whole formula needs a complete overhaul and the removal of a generation of ‘manager types’ who have destroyed the essence of the sport. This wheel banging stuff got the commentators excited and the fans – who lets face it have sat through years of tedium – excited too. So they penalise it, thus ensuring that it never happens again.

    We need some soul back in this sport. But at least I get my Sunday afternoons back, I’m not sure after 35 years that I’m bothered anymore by this corrupt boredom.

  282. steve thompson
    8th September 2008, 8:43

    Sush has it on the nail. Kimi racing on the run off was dangerous and against the spirit of the rules….. not a whisper from anyone.

  283. For the benefit of those just joining the debate, a small number of comments have been deleted for breaking the terms of the Comment Policy. Please remember racist and insulting comments will be deleted. Thanks to the vast majority of you for keeping the debate clean and highly charged!

  284. Here are my thoughts – yes I’m a Hammyfan, but I’m a Racing fan first!
    1. Hammy was challenging Kimi on the outside of the previous corner, so naturally Kimi tried to dissuade him and forced him wide, the inside of the last corner
    2. Hammy realised he was cutting the corner (or was warned by the team) and slowed down as soon as he could
    3. It would be good to see footage from a camera at the finish line to see if Hammy was ahead of Kimi coming out of the corner, and the information from both cars to see if Hammy was still braking at that point
    4. Hammy had slowed down enough after the finish line because Kimi was ahead going down the straight and Hammy was physically behind him entering the braking zone for the next corner
    5. Hammy then outbreaked Kimi to such an extent that Kimi bumped his nose on Hammys rear tyres at the entrance to the next corner
    To me, thats just racing, what we all like to see. Why the penalty? Should Hammy have stopped dead on the run-off of the last corner? That would have caused him to slide into Kimi! Perhaps the FIA need to watch more Touring Car racing, where this happens at every race!
    According to the news this morning McLaren are appealing the decision, so expect them to get a hefty fine in the next few weeks for daring to question the FIAs judgement! If I was Big Ron, I would start action against the individual Stewards involved, by name, so they have to prove in a Court that they have no bias towards Ferrari. And as for the guy who is supposed to keep all Stewards decisions on an even footing, what was he doing?
    Also, there has been footage of Massa’s ‘little incident’ at Valencia released, and to me it shows that he only let Sutil go first because if he hadn’t he would have hit a barrier. If the Pit Exit had been wide enough he would have passed Sutil before re-entering the track…

  285. Scott Kilmurray
    8th September 2008, 9:25

    This is absolutely farciful. The race stewards with their in bed relationship with Ferrari, are doing nothing more then ruining the sport. In fact it is not a sport, it is a showcase of cars which at the end of the day have to be led by Ferrari based stewards decisions since they cannot win a championship on their own merits. Kimi, as talented a driver he is, was woeful in the wet, an amateur at best, Lewis gave him the position back what else can you do. All this really proves is that the sport is rigged to favour Ferrari, and the problem is that until fans start to boycott the sport nothing will change. What makes this worse is that if Massa does happen to win the championship by anything less then 8 points, the championship would not have been decided on the track but by the stewards, in what could be the most disgraceful decision in the history of the sport.

  286. Lewis, with all due respect to a talented racing driver as him(am not a fan of his though), should have done what logically should have been done. Use the god-darned brakes(even in Canada he should have had). All those people who justified him cutting the corner, we should remember that vehicles have BRAKES to slow them down, which were also available to Lewis. He could have lifted off, or used the brakes, isn’t too hard, or is it(keeping Lewis’s actions in mind, i could be wrong)? He got a penalty in France and one would think, “boy musta’ learned his lesson!” Guess we got it all wrong, when he goes on to say “If there’s a penalty, then there’s something wrong because I was ahead going into that corner, so I didn’t gain an advantage from it.” Lessons in humility are in order for him, one would imagine.

    About giving back the advantage(which he shouldn’t have have had in the first place), this is not the first time that this driver has resorted to such a move(France being the case in point). I know we all have our loyalties lying with something/ someone, and we root for it/ them. Does it have to be so blind though? FIA/ and stewards did very well to penalize him as a deterrent, to any such future incidents by this particular driver(or anyone else for that matter).

    Some people have questioned Kimi over the move, squeezing Ham out. Well, he had the inside line, he did what he/ anyone else in his position, would have done, what’s all the hoopla about?

    Now about Valencia and Massa. Let us get one thing straight, it is one and the only such incident in F1 which got penalized(in more than a decade or so), even if it was monetary. Infact, i was quite surprised to see it being raised by the stewards, for that matter. So, with all due respect, can you all please quit whinging about it?

  287. I am not a Hammy fan but I think the penalty was wrong. He should have only received a 10 second penalty and would have won the race anyway.

    Here’s how I saw it:
    Ham woulld not have been able to slipstream Kimmi unless he took the corner the way he did, and so he gained an advantage. I think there would have been less backlash if he got a drive through immediately but that would be too harsh. It should have been a 10 second penalty.

    There’s something more behind the FIA and McLaren relationship, and I think McLaren would be able to enlighten us. What have they done to get on the FIA’s bad side? Is there a “no speak” clause? McLaren seem to accept most of the bad decisions. Did Mclaren cheat in the past? Conspiracies? Ah, whatever, wrong decision!

    Happy for Massa though. He was hard done by with the blown engine and would have led the championship. So talent wise, he deserves to be up there. Would never have said that at the beginning of the year!

  288. ‘If I was Big Ron, I would start action against the individual Stewards involved, by name, so they have to prove in a Court that they have no bias towards Ferrari.’

    Won’t happen, DG. The EU already gave the FIA the power as final authority in motorsport. And it’s up to McLaren to prove that the Stewards have a bias for Ferrari, not the other way round. Innocent until proven guilty.

  289. I used to read the posts on this site because of the impartial nature, it appears to be changing….I think the author (Sorry Keith), wrote this article in haste. I am not saying I agree or disagree with the penalty, am seeing both sides of the argument.

    F1 now have resident marshall’s who make the calls on these incidents, they obviously found reason to penalise, so no rash comments from me, just hope ITV has not brainwashed the whole British public with its sometimes ridiculous coverage.

  290. F I A (Ferrari International Assistance) strike again

  291. @Sri – but Hamilton let Kimi pass him – that’s a fact. He was slower than him at start/finish line by 6km/h – that’s a fact. He follow the rules this time (not like France). And finally we are talking about inconsistency of these penalties. Every time rules being interpreted differently. Why is that?

  292. I’m absolutely reeling and I’m glad to see I’m not alone. Lewis produced arguably one of the most thrilling drives of his career only for the party poopers to come in and raise their stink!
    I believe Hamilton had no choice but to shave off the corner on Kimmi’s counter challenge. In any case he backed off as the riles require one to and let Kimmi go. To somehow

  293. You can not a win from a driver, if they wanted to penalize him they could have gavem him a 5 or 10 place grid penalty.
    Don’t know how many of you remeber last year when Luca di Montezemello said that he has nothing against taking the title in court. This year the stuards will help them because they can’t do it on their own.
    When kimi hit the wall a wasen’t happy because of that but know a am really happy, hope they have to engine blows in Monza, but even then the stuards will give them the win.

    Sorry for poor english

  294. I am so sick of the so called governing body (FIA) being in complete partnership with ferrari. I think there needs to be a complete overhaul of the governing body as it appears very bluntly that the FIA and ferrari have too many hands in each others pockets. It also appears that unless you have a ferrari engine under the hood you shouldn’t turn up to race! At the rate the FIA is going Ferrari will be the only F1 engine! Maybe that’s what the hands in the pockets are for!

  295. I’m absolutely reeling and I’m glad to see I’m not alone. Lewis produced arguably one of the most thrilling drives of his career only for the party poopers to come in and raise their stink!
    I believe Hamilton had no choice but to shave off the corner on Kimmi’s counter challenge. In any case he backed off as the rules require one to and let Kimmi go. The challenge that followed was absolutely brilliant and it’s the sort that we fans would love to see in F1. The FIA clearly doesn’t like great entertainment. The penalty is perhaps a manifestation of what we have been suspecting all along. An anti Maclaren conspiracy. It’s absolutely hogwash!

  296. http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/080908103638.shtml

    Niki Lauda tells that this is a “worst judgment in the history of F1” – what else we can say …

  297. Journeyer, I see your point, thats why I said in a Court, where it would be done legally. I agree they are innocent until proven guilty, and at least in a Court they wouldn’t be sheltered by FIA protocol.
    It just occurred to me that the FIA and FOM may not be institutionally biased, but individual Stewards might be, given that the Stewards come from the motoring associations which make up the FIA, and are presumably senior enough to have connections with teams and manufacturers, and even though there is supposed to be someone to see that all is fair, it just isn’t happening.

  298. Last year, Lewis rightly and in a sportsmanlike manner said he did not want to win the championship in the courts but on the track as it would devalue the sport. I wonder if Massa will say the same. I doubt it. Alonso will find a perfect home at Ferrari.

  299. ‘Last year, Lewis rightly and in a sportsmanlike manner said he did not want to win the championship in the courts but on the track as it would devalue the sport.’

    But didn’t McLaren appeal after Brazil anyway to try to win the title in court? I wouldn’t give that statement too much weight.

  300. to “RBrawn”
    have u read all of the comments?
    in all honesty mate if Keith was in haste when he wrote this then he’s crertainly not alone!
    ur clearly wearing ur red shirt!
    this is easily the most posted topic on this whole website addy so it’s clearly a legit article!

  301. Sri – are you trying to say because he did not show humility so he should be punished? ps – the rules are for racing not humility. So you think Hamilton didn’t use his brakes and should learn how to do so – and why didn’t Kimi use his brakes? Maybe if Kimi knew how to brake he would not have ended in the barriers – please, stop bringing up these ridiculous arguments.

  302. Journeyer, I am talking about Lewis and Massa as individual drivers. Lewis did say that, I saw him on telly saying it!!!!!! Let’s wait to hear what Massa says.

  303. I fought F1 was a fair and unbiased sport; It’s easy to see it’s not. Lewis Hamilton was incorrectly penalising at the Belgium GP yesterday. I have been watching F1 for over twenty years now, and the only way I can see the sport surviving is the weeding out of the corrupted FIA. It saddens me to see a once beautiful sport corrupted by men in suites

  304. @mail123456:
    It is also a fact that he should’ve not had that advantage. Can you argue with that?

    No, he was penalized cos he took advantage that he shouldn’t have had. He should have slowed down, by means of lifting off in the corner, or by perhaps braking. Kimi was indeed on the apex for that corner and he chose to hold his line, which is perfectly fair for anyone to do(even if it was Lewis holding off Kimi, i’ll say that).

    He made a statement, “If there’s a penalty, then there’s something wrong because I was ahead going into that corner, so I didn’t gain an advantage from it” to the effect that he did nothing wrong. He did the same thing in France, and one would think, “the chap must have learned something about the value of keeping your trap shut.” That’s where the “lessons in humility” comment is aimed at. Peace out…

  305. Kimi drove very slowly out of ‘that’ corner. Obviously he hoped that Hamilton jump ahead after cutting the corner – which he didn’t.

    Had Hamilton followed Kimi around the corner and if Kimi had exited at the same speed, Hamilton would have been right behind Kimi out of the exit and would have been able to overtake quite easily.

    So Hamilton did not gain an advantage by pulling back to slipstream Kimi. Kimi driving so slowly out of the corner put hamilton in a very tricky position. Louis almost had to stamp on his brakes to let Kimi retake the lead.

  306. A Red Herring; and Lewis’ increasingly evident Road Rage around championship rivals

    I think all the fuss about the stewards’ decision is a red herring. It was a very dramatic and exciting race, with the resurgent Raikkonen apparently needing to win (which seemed unlikely before the race) to be allowed to maintain his championship challenge by Ferrari, and, remarkably, apparently being about to pull it off, with a terrific race, back to the Kimi of old. Then, rain and drama, with some dramatic overtaking by the catcher-up – and don’t forget we hardly ever see overtaking in other races – capped by a reversal of the way the race had gone (with KR losing the lead and crashing out) and a dramatic finale, with other cars scattering off the track and the lead cars forced to go massively slower to creep round the final lap. It had emotional drama big-time, with two of the main players – Kimi and Lewis – battling it out in dramatic fashion and surprises galore in those last stages.

    THAT is why people are complaining about the penalty; it had us all gripped in a way we have been hoping for for some time from F1 but haven’t really been seeing – the complaining about the penalty is not really about the legitimacy of the penalty itself. For, amidst all that, yes, unfortunately, it’s a no-brainer: Hamilton did commit the infringement; everyone just loves the drama and the excitement of the race too much to want it to be affected by that.

    But rules is rules. It’s no good pretending Lewis would have been that close to Kimi after ‘giving him back the lead’ for a split-second, if he hadn’t cut the chicane in the way he did. And that was why he was able to overtake him at that point. All you have to do to realise it was a dodgy tactic is cast your mind back to tons and tons of previous races where, any time someone cuts a chicane, the commentators are looking out for if the driver doing the cutting has ‘gained an advantage’ over the man in front that means they are better able to take them on. It’s no good pretending that the rules don’t spell out some of the minutiae of exactly what may constitute ‘gaining an advantage’ – everybody knows what the main gist of it is (it is simply ‘gaining an advantage’ the man behind wouldn’t have had otherwise) and it’s as obvious as sin that Hamilton was stretching the rules by a mile with that maneouvre. It’s not an academic point: he overtook KR on the track in what were dangerous conditions, it was a reckless piece of driving in reality (with a kind of ‘to hell with the rules’ attitude) and arguably this was what caused KR to crash: if KR hadn’t been overtaken in that way he wouldn’t have been fighting in the way he had to in the next corners and become unstuck in the conditions.

    There is one comment in this thread that says LH in reality WOULD have been that close to make the pass if he hadn’t cut the chicane; nonsense, as KR drove the chicane perfectly legitimately, taking a decent line through the corner when decently placed going in to it (Hamilton was not better placed for the corner) and if Lewis had been placed in the usual way for a guy following the driver who legitimately has the lead through the corner, Lewis would NOT have been that close at the point when he made his move on KR. Lewis bent the rules in both circumstances – instead of braking/backing off to adapt to KR driving decently through the corner, he independently improvised a cutting-the-chicane maneouvre that deliberately gave him the advantage going out of the corner and enabled him to make a pass when on KR’s bumper just afterwards. Lewis wanted to get past no matter what: but he broke the rules.

    Everybody has to face that what was great drama high excitement and all the rest of it had that bit of illegality in it from one driver (unfortunately!) – let us not forget that without that manoeuvre, it is doubtful that KR’s entire race would have been scuppered by him crashing and thus his championship challenge would have been derailed.

    What many – not all but many – are also missing is that Lewis knew d-mn well he had stretched rules beyond the limit; he alluded to this in the press conference when he clearly stated ‘I pushed to the limits and in some cases beyond them’.

    Final point (!): what we really saw there was another and unpalatable aspect of Lewis H – Road Rage that we have already seen before. In Canada, he punted Raikkonen out unnecessarily in the pit lane. In Spa, having been overtaken on the outside by Raikkonen early on, which only just before the race he had vowed was ‘never going to happen again’, he lost his cool a bit in the final stage when he saw Raikkonen – he just didn’t want to be beaten by Raikkonen and thus the dodgy manoeuvre (like in Canada). Don’t forget Raikkonen beat him last year. Lewis clearly sees red a bit when he senses this true rival may have the upper hand on him and his thought-process gets worse: he starts trying to break rules to stop Raikkonen besting him and gets penalties each time! (But, each time also, he has successfuly ruined Raikkonen’s chances.) Lewis in that way has a bit of Michael Schumacher about him: a man who, let us not forget, Lewis holds in high esteem (more so than Kimi, who is renowned for playing fair).

    On the subject of Lewis and jealousy towards rivals that manifests in underhand behaviour, I think it is fairly obvious ‘after the event’ that Alonso was cleverly made out to be far more of a villain than was justified at McClaren and that Lewis’s little comments and character portrayals of him at key points in the season were key elements of this. Lewis made his unflattering/critical comments and the media then weighed in…Alonso ends up looking like a real villain. As Lewis said later on, he had one objective last season: to beat Alonso and not be seen as being bested by his team-mate. I think where Lewis’s rivals are concerned – Alonso, Kimi – he will adopt underhand tactics (whether by using PR as in Fernando’s case or by breaking rules as in Kimi’s case) if needed to damage his rivals’ cause. Next up for this approach must be Felipe Massa: so far, Lewis hasn’t lost it around him, but now he’s only two points behind and looks like the most obvious title challenger to him, we can expect some devious things from lewis in the final races.

    Not that the English media will admit this, in all likelihood, as people seem so desperate to fawn about Lewis, presumably to keep in with everyone else who is doing so and thus keep their own places in the F1 circus; it’s a bandwagon effect.

  307. I am one of the minority who believe that Lewis Hamilton did gain an advantage by cutting the chicane and therefore deserved some penalty. If he had not cut the chicane I think he would have lost more momentum and would not have been close enough to successfully overtake Kimi.
    Having said that, the way it was handled by the stewards after the race and the penalty given to Lewis has tainted a great finish to the Spa Gran Prix.
    However, being cynical, we now have a championship that is wide open again which always helps viewing figures and ticket sales.

  308. Kimi drove very slowly out of ‘that’ corner. Obviously he hoped that Hamilton jump ahead after cutting the corner – which he didn’t.

    Had Hamilton followed Kimi around the corner and if Kimi had exited at the same speed, Hamilton would have been right behind Kimi out of the exit and would have been able to overtake quite easily.

    So Hamilton did not gain an advantage by pulling back to slipstream Kimi. Kimi driving so slowly out of the corner put hamilton in a very tricky position. Louis almost had to stamp on his brakes to let Kimi retake the lead.

  309. Keith, time to put this to a poll. The results of that would be interesting to see.

  310. @Sri – Tom Barron (312) said what I mean
    And also there is no way to have an advantage when you are 6km/h slower. If you invent some new physics enlighten us please :) there are some comments of this already btw
    And one more thing: rules said that if you cut corner you must let competitor to pass … no more, no less … there is no such things in rules as slipstream, wait to next corner, next apex, next 2-3-4-5 corners, 3-5-10sec gap … correct me if I’m wrong …
    btw in document posted by stewards are mentioned only 2 paragraphs (1 from international sporting code, and 1 from from f1 sporting regulations) about leaving the circuit. I can’t find anything about gained advantage in these paragraphs in document posted…

  311. OK i’m beginning to feel whats the point in watching this sport anymore?! As a big fan (maybe soon ex fan) i feel really hurt and disappointed in this decision for the sports sake or can we call it a sport anymore??? Not only did Lewis drive fantastic to catch up with Kimi in the first place but Kimi made the first mistake by breaking early. Lewis was going to try and take advantage of that fact until Kimi dirtily pushed him off track. Lewis at least got out his way so the 2 didn’t crash and quite gentlemanly (i know its the stupid rules!) let him back past. He then overtook fair and square. You can’t blame Lewis for Kimi then being able to handle his car in the rain. Lewis’s driving on Sunday proved what a great driver he is and can handle his car in all situations with dirty cheats beside him as well as rain. What i want to know is who monitors the back handers that the stewards are getting from Ferrari this year??? Has there been a decision against the cheating lot yet?? I think as fans we should have some kind of say into what the stewards are doing this year

  312. ‘rules said that if you cut corner you must let competitor to pass’

    nope, the rules don’t even state that explicitly. the unwritten rule is that to avoid penalty, you must ensure that ALL the advantage you gain by cutting the chicane must be negated. Not just letting your competitor pass, you must make sure that you don’t even get a tow right after giving the place back because you wouldn’t have been that close if you cut the chicane.

    While Lewis gave his place back, it wasn’t an honest return of position. He stayed in Kimi’s tow and used it to regain all the lost speed and get ahead again. That seems to be the point of contention here.

  313. If you guys think FIA is Ferrari bias then go and find other sports to watch and follow. Lewis is despirately taking every chance to win to salvage himself from last year’s high hopes and expectations from his team (especially Ron Dennis) which slipped through his hands. Bad lewis, bad! that’s not the proper way to win… didn’t you papa told you that. Oh, how I wonder.

  314. @Dawn:

    Then don’t watch. it won’t hurt us or even the sport.

  315. Formula 1 or Ferrari 1, I think is is a clear cut answer now.

    I stopped watching in the Schumacher era as it was getting very predicatble, then I thought after Michael’s retirement the re-birth occured. I will stop watching again if these meddling back room anonymous cowards will not come out and state what the real reasons are – OH I already got there F1 = Ferrari 1.

  316. CD, it DOES hurt the sport, believe it or not. Less people watching = less support. Less support = less chance of F1 surviving the environmentalists and the safety advocates.

    And we haven’t even gone into the less income part. Bernie would hate that.

  317. #313 William, it isn’t just “the English” who are outraged by this decision. I have been on both a South African and a Dutch F1 website and heard the same outrage by journalists and the public. You must be blind to not see what everyone else sees.

  318. I’ve attempted to cover some of the main points of the debate in a new article here: Seven reasons why so many F1 fans are furious about Hamilton’s penalty

  319. @ Journeyer:

    I know that already (less support=less ad, less ad=less surviving of the sport), of course, I also did my homework. But I don’t think you can totally boycott the sport. If you think you can, then I dare you.

  320. William – if Lewis is so determined to punt his opponents off the track, why isn’t he doing it every race? If he was doing it every race he would have been Black Flagged and sent home by now, and most bloggers here would agree with that. And its inconsistent to say he is picking on Kimi when Massa has been more of a threat than Kimi, and you say yourself he has yet to do anything to Massa.
    Also, the ‘PR’ campaign against Alonso last year was started by Alonso, who seemed to have decided that Ron and McLaren were the wrong team for him, and that he couldn’t live with another good driver as a team mate.
    Remember his attitude previously at Renault with Fisci, and look at his his behaviour now at Renault with Piquet.

  321. My oh my what alot of comments.

    I have had the time now to sit and watch videos from a variety of sources and read so many opinions from so many different websites.

    I can only draw one conclusion. The incident in the chicane had absolutley nothing to do with the outcome of the race. Why penalise a driver when it didn’t really affect anything anyway? Chances are that Raikonnen would still have crashed out. The following spins still happened. None of these events had anything to do with the chicane incident.

    Common sense needs to be applied.

  322. But Ken, rules ARE rules, regardless of what happened to Kimi. They still need to be punished appropriately.

    CD, I’m a hardcore fan, and I’m not as miffed at this decision as the others are. No way I’d boycott. But if F1 is to survive, it also needs the casual fans (like Dawn) to stay on. Otherwise, F1 WILL suffer, no doubt about it.

  323. These guys are racing at the best part of 200mph, and, as with combat pilots, vital judgements have to be made instinctively, in a split second. This was at the very end of the race (how many of the stewards are ex f1 drivers, incidentally, and know how that feels? If none, why not?), with the drivers absolutely knackered, the weather turning and everything to play for.

    Hamilton’s move didn’t affect the outcome (physically, anyhow) – and I’m afraid it really is beginning to look as though there is a pro-Ferrari (anti-Maclaren?) biaswould Kimi have been punished in similar circumstances) and it makes me very sad – championships should be won on the track, not in back rooms.

    Not for one moment do I believe Kimi really thought Hamilton had cheated him (although he was probably mightily pissed off that he had been ‘gammoned like that – he would have realised , come the rain and Hamilton suddenly all over his rear end (relax, Max!), that time was running out. He lost it at the end in appalling conditions (and might well have done so anyhow if Hamilton had still been harrassing him from behind – said Relax, Max – in his wet-friendlier car) but that was just good old-fashioned pressure, like Hamilton’s spin on lap 1; and I rather doubt he have run blubbing to Nanny as a result (not that he would have had to – I’m a tifoso of many years standing, love Italy and the Italians, but know only too well how things work out there. Ferrari wouldn’t have needed to complain formally – a discreet telephone call would been enough to set the wheels gently into motion).

    I’m not as much of a Hamilton/Maclaren fan as I am of Ferrari, but a wicked decision that leaves a very nasty taste. So now go for it, Ferrari, and give us the championship by enough of a margin to prove we can do it on our own, without outside help.

    And leave Donnelly alone, he can’t have been be everywhere, and its common knowledge he was driving a white Fiat in the Pont D’ Alma underpass that night, with Elvis in the passenger seat …

  324. The paranoid comments about the FIA not letting him win a championship are a bit laughable.
    How quickly you all forget the last two races of last season where Lewis threw away an 18 point lead over Kimi. The only reason he isn’t champion now is because he screwed up. How many other drivers have their car craned back onto the track after spinning off? Never ever seen that before in living memory.
    Lewis needs to learn how to drive the car under pressure, when to overtake and how to go round corners, not over them.

  325. Only Old Schuey being pushed back onto the track by Marshalls, taking a Stop-Go Penalty at the end of the last lap of a race, punting his main opposition off at the end of straight, stopping any of his opponents getting a faster qualifying lap by ‘Parking’ at the last corner of a circuit at the end of qualifying.
    Need I go on?

  326. ~~~taking a Stop-Go Penalty at the end of the last lap of a race~~~
    Within the rules

    ~~~stopping any of his opponents getting a faster qualifying lap by ‘Parking’ at the last corner of a circuit at the end of qualifying.~~~

    He was punished for it.

    ~~~punting his main opposition off at the end of straight~~~
    He was stripped of all his points that season.

    While we are on Schumacher lets mention black flag at the British grand prix for overtaking on the parade lap. (big advantage gained there) The same season he was disqualified from Spa after the plank of wood under his car was 0.0001mm too thin.
    Need I go on?

    Yes DG please go on.

  327. comment 331
    M. Schumacher i belive in germany when him and Montoya touched.
    I was a Ferrai fan in the schumacher era but after the spy scandal i am discusted at them, especially when Montezemelo said he will be happy if Ferrari win the title in the court as they did because Mclaren dropped the Budapest incident as it was stripped of all it’s point’s.
    Ferrai are nothing else but sore lossers

  328. The point I was making was that Schumacher had things go for and against him the same way Hamilton is. They both seem to be fairly controversial drivers and those types of drivers will have decisions go for and against them as the facts show.
    This time the decision went against Hamilton but I am sure he will live to see another day of being craned back onto the track or having his team mate demoted on the grid after an incident Hamilton started etc etc.

  329. ‘~~~punting his main opposition off at the end of straight~~~
    He was stripped of all his points that season. ‘

    he only lost 2nd place, uncle ron. he kept all his points and wins. no bearing, really.

  330. I’ve just realized something: if anything, the FIA want Hamilton to go to Ferrari. As it is, Hamilton is the only driver getting any favors from the FIA (as Uncle Ron said, Hungary and Europe 2007). Imagine if he were at Ferrari! But he probably won’t win any titles while at McLaren.

    Of course, this is assuming the FIA does have bias for Ferrari.

  331. I thought he was refering to the Villeneuve incident. Anyway its a bit like when he was black flagged at the british grand prix for overtaking Hill on the parade lap. The race hadnt even started and therefore no bearing really. Like I said they all have some decisions go for them and against them.
    Shame you didnt want to tackle any of my other points though.

  332. ~~~ But he probably won’t win any titles while at McLaren.

    Of course, this is assuming the FIA does have bias for Ferrari.~~~

    He should be champion in a Mclaren now!!!! But he bottled an 18 point advantage!!! He has no one to blame for not being champion in a Mclaren but himself!!!
    Unless Ferrari somehow made him not change his tyres in Shanghai and somehow made him press the wrong button on his steering wheel. How quickly you all forget!!!

    Exclaimation marks!!!

  333. Couldn’t believe this when I woke up this morning.
    An absolutely ridiculous decision. I really hope that the McLaren appeal is successful, but judging by past brushes with the FIA I don’t hold out much hope!

  334. @ mail123456:
    You seemingly do not understand that if Ham did what Toby mentioned in comment 312, then we wouldn’t be having this discussion. The whole point of the penalty is that he didn’t. Now that they are appealing, i’ll be surprised if they do not nerf him by penalizing him furthermore, for repeating the same mistakes, citing that he hasn’t learned much from a similar penalty from recent past(France, that is).

    @ UncleRon:
    Brilliant facts… about Schumi. One addition though, the Spa penalty was given to him with full knowledge that he ran over the kerbs. Which somehow happens all the times, and no one ever is penalized in case of such niggling accidents/ incidents, yet he was.

  335. Have a look at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70rXr2Mkq_M

    It seems to me that LH outbreaked KR on the approach to The Bus Stop. There are two corners in a chicane. LH gave KR plenty of room on the inside of the first corner and was easily able to stay on the track (he hadn’t out breaked himself). KR then pushed LH off track. LH had two choices. 1. continue on the track (he had the inside line for the second corner) OR 2. move left and off the track (too avoid being hit by KR). If, heading into the second corner of the chicane, KR had shown the same consideration for LH as LH showed KR in the first corner then this incident would not have happened.

    LH was ahead before entering the right hand corner and, by letting KR fully pass him on the straight following the chicane, more than gave back any advantage that had been gained by ‘cutting’ the left-hander. Starting in front of even along side and then being behind is in no way gaining an advantage.

  336. @Sri – I prefer to believe to Niki Lauda who is three times world champion. When he talks about racing he know what he is talking… anything else is politics … end of story for me (I’m sick of it anyway)

    also there are rumors that McLaren can’t appeal because drive-through penalties cannot be appealed

  337. ~~~Starting in front of even along side and then being behind is in no way gaining an advantage.~~~

    Yes it is because he was closer than if he hadn’t decided to miss the chicane (albeit deliberately or due to lack of skill)
    Being closer to Kimi than he would have been had he not skipped the corner meant he was in a position to slipstream right past Kimi again. This is an unfair advantage and why he was penalised.

    Why is it so difficult for people to understand this?

    Yes the penalty is harsh but please try to understand/admit/accept that the infringement did actually occur.

  338. ~~~I prefer to believe to Niki Lauda who is three times world champion. When he talks about racing he know what he is talking… anything else is politics … end of story for me (I’m sick of it anyway)~~~

    So is Jackie Stewart but he hasnt got a clue what he is drivelling on about half the time.

  339. Being closer to Kimi than he would have been had he not skipped the corner meant he was in a position to slipstream right past Kimi again. This is an unfair advantage and why he was penalised.

    I think you’re making two unsafe assumptions:

    1. When Raikkonen turned in on Hamilton, Hamilton would have been able to avoid hitting him by braking.

    2. Having braked, Hamilton would not have been able to stay as close to Raikkonen as he was after he conceded the position.

    I think (1) is probably not even possible given how close they were and the fact that the track was wet.

    But if you assume (1) was possible, therefore surely (2) is as well? Which debunks the argument that Hamilton gained an advantage.

  340. Well Keith, thanks for accusing me of making assumptions over fact.

    The ‘fact’ that you then started your reply with “I think” means you dont really know and are therefore basing your response to me on an assumption as well.

    Let’s look at what we know are definite facts…

    Hamilton overshot the chicane either deliberately in a dangerous move or due to lack of skill or awareness of braking distances. – fact
    Hamilton overtook Kimi due to this move – fact
    Hamilton backed off slightly so he was in a position to immediately slipstream past him – fact (As thats what he did)
    The stewards deemed this to be an unfair advantage – Fact
    Hamilton was given a penalty for this – Fact
    McLaren are appealing – Fact
    James Allen is a tosser – Fact

  341. @Uncle Ron – Max is that you :D:D:D

  342. i think comments no. 257 and 268 cover the issue completely, i hadnt seen the onboard footage b4, Keith i think you should be pushing on this, this site has some clout you know

  343. am a ferrari fan…
    and i got 1 word for fia.. horse****…

  344. Uncle Ron – if, as I understand, you are stating that Hamilton was closer to Raikkonen after letting him past than he would have been had he (somehow) managed to slow his car and follow Raikkonen around the final corner without going off the track or hitting Raikkonen, then that can only be an assumption.

  345. is this:


    any surprise after this weekend’s travesty of justice?

    Finally a race worth watching to the end and not just to the first corner pile-up.
    Finally a race that was decided by skill and daring, and not by fuel loads.
    Finally a race that tested everything the drivers and teams had, and it was all laid out for us to see in edge of your seat drama. Last minute tire changes, back-markers racing through the field in the closing seconds on inters, leaders gingerly, yet aggressively racing to the line.

    and we get this ******* post-race decision?

    I’ve been waking up at 4:00 am to watch quali’s and races in obscene time-zones for this cr@p?

    I am off to find something else to watch…
    maybe gymnastics…

    it’s been hard to explain to my wife why I am taking this so personally… it is good to see so many others morally outraged… I feel dirty to be a fan

    $crew y0u F1

  346. Uncle Ron, ever heard of an opinion? Quite different from an assumption.

    ‘Hamilton backed off slightly so he was in a position to immediately slipstream past him – fact (As thats what he did)’
    That’s not a fact yet, Uncle Ron, merely an assumption. I’m sure many others will tell you that. While I do agree with it, that has yet to be proven beyond doubt.


    ‘But if you assume (1) was possible, therefore surely (2)(Having braked, Hamilton would not have been able to stay as close to Raikkonen as he was after he conceded the position.) is as well?’

    Braking is one thing, acceleration completely different. They’re not correlated.

  347. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/7604776.stm
    Lauda thinks this is out breaking … not a slipstream

  348. I am selling my Ferrari.

  349. @Uncle Ron

    “Hamilton overshot the chicane either deliberately in a dangerous move or due to lack of skill or awareness of braking distances. – fact”

    It’s been a tough competition but that’s one of the most ridiculous claims you’ve made today. Accuse him of what you want but if you think that Lewis demonstrated a lack of skill or lack of knowledge about braking distances or even needed to skip that chicane deliberately then you saw a completely different race to me.

    LH gave KR a masterclass in wet weather driving yesterday, it was a joy to watch.

  350. @Uncle Ron – how about that:
    “Lewis deserved to win but it was taken away, Schumacher, who now races in the German touring car series DTM, wrote in the German newspaper Bild. “To me, it was fair overtaking,” he added.”


  351. this SPA 08 F1 race was stolen away from lewis,
    through out the race other drivers where cutting corners and punting each other away for track position, they didn’t get penalized (only McLaren). it was only after the race was won by lewis that the stewards decided after the fact that they didn’t approve of those earlier tactics.

    Lewis clearly out drove kimi in the final 5 laps of spa 08, he was clearly faster than kimi into the busstop, and only cut the corner (at the very end)after realizing that kimi had closed off any possibility of them both existing the together. he clearly was next to kimi entering the corner and so didn’t need drop behind by much after he let kimi by.

    lewis clearly gave back the position, and then attacked immediately (without drafting kimi)after he was passed.
    kimi gave up the inside line because he knew lewis was close behind and faster, so kimi wanted to prepare for lewis’s next attack by the next corner and was setting himself up to execute the cross-over move, this caused him to lose speed as he used up more of the track while he swerved to the left to block lewis, whilst preparing to dive under him at the upcoming corner, but lewis kept basically kept his car straight maintaining his momentum and out braked kimi.

  352. Niki Lauda puts the argument very well in this interview:


  353. ‘through out the race other drivers where cutting corners and punting each other away for track position’

    which parts are these, emmy? please specify.

    although i believe glock lost his 8th place for such an incident.

    ‘and then attacked immediately (without drafting kimi)’

    there WAS a draft if you watch the vid. while momentary, it still had some effect on lewis’ speed vs. kimi’s.

  354. mail123456
    “Niki Lauda tells that this is a `worst judgment in the history of F1′ – what else we can say …”

    We can say that Lauda is wrong ;^)

  355. Kester, someone mentioned in one of the posts that Ferrari don’t need to formally file a protest; they just need to make some calls and make some… suggestions.

    They’re creepy like that, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it were true.

  356. @William Wilgus – please listen what he say and then came back and explain us when exactly you last drive formula 1 car or any sport car :) I’m really interested about your opinion on what he says … “wrong” is just not enough …

  357. 2005 Suzuka
    Ferando Alonso vs Cristpher Klien
    You know the story.
    And this time last year Max Mosely was proably booking an amazing holiday

  358. Who are the racing drivers here? Easy, Ferrari & the Stewards. They can do no wrong. A very bad decision. Think I’ll stick to the good old Touring cars. Good racing and a true sport.
    I hope the stewards are pleased with themselves.

  359. as a ferrari fan for over 30 years now, i have to express my disgust at the stewards descision. as much as i want ferrari to win the championship, to be handed it unfairly is against everything sport stands for…

    …if i was massa i would not accept the descision – as a racing driver i would want to win fair and square, because i am the better driver, and not because someone has gifted me an undeserved victory.

    very disappointed red

  360. A problem here is that I haven’t got the strength to read 364 posts, the majority of which will I am sure be saying much the same as what I am thinking. So if anyone has made this suggestion in the 364, please forgive me.

    There was a note in the paper today that said that the three guys who screwed Lewis were a Frenchman, a Belgian and — wait for it — a Kenyan! Now I can understand the first two not approving of Hamilton, or not approving of McLaren, or in general terms not approving of England; but I cannot understand how a man from East Africa has gathered the skills, the experience and the qualification to make reasoned decisions on F1 driving at this kind of level. It seems on the face of it that anyone who can show an interest in F1 might be asked to determine the outcome of a protest action.

    I would like to propose that the stewards are returned to the duties for which they were originally set up: crowd control, waving their flags, and running on the track when a car goes off. The more serious decisions at the level of driving skill and rule infringement should be adjudicated by a specially-invited panel of people who know what it takes, know what is happening in the cockpit, and can command respect throughout the F1 scene.

    They should not be connected with any F1 team right now, which rules out a few of the obvious choices: but for a start I would like to suggest Damon Hill, Mika Hakkinen and Alain Prost. You will have your own preferences; but don’t hang about until Lewis has retired in disgust. They will require some payment, and a levy on all the teams equally seems the fairest way. They should certainly not be paid by Bernie or Max.

  361. Gremlin – I’d rather judge people on their individual merits rather than their nationalities.

    For example, Surinder Thatti (who is Tanzanian, not Kenyan, I believe) is the man who sent an email earlier this year to his FIA cohorts complaining that Sebastien Loeb’s beard was bad for the image of rallying.

    I think that tells us more about the quality of his judgement than where he’s from.

  362. Can somebody with more knowledge than me about the regulations please explain one thing to me….

    If the Stewards got it wrong and when it is looked at again by the FIA (which it must have been by now given the amount of controversy caused) what action can be taken?

    Surely the FIA can overturn the Stewards decision without even going to the Appeal stage?

    I love F1 but I don’t understand all of the regulations as many people on this blog seem to. Somebody must have the power to intervene. If Ferrari didn’t lodge a complaint and the Race Director had no issue with it, if McLaren and Hamilton did the right thing and gave the lead back then somebody should step in – For the sake of the sport.

    When you have the likes of Nikki Lauda commenting on the decision then you have to ask questions.

  363. What a sad sad sate of affairs.

    I have followed F1 for over 20 years. But if its all a fix and actual racing is penalized I see absolutely no reason why I should bother wasting my time on this mockery any longer.

    So I wish you a sad goodbye

  364. I’ve been a Ferrari fan for years – never miss a Grand Prix. I’ve sometimes felt saddened by bad decisions but this time I’m appalled. One of the best races we’ve seen in years – but the after taste is so bad – I’m not sure I want to follow F1 any more.

  365. I cant see anyone turning their backs on F1…like really???

    I can see ppl tryin not to watch the next race….NOT

  366. You’re right KB, but you know what.
    I don’t think I’ll be buying that Ferrari jacket now and I can’t see me going to any races any time soon.
    What’d be the point of spending over £1,000 to watch a race if their going to change the result a few hours later ?

  367. I have just found this site and I so agree with all of your comments. If the decision stands then like many of you, I will not be watching any more F1 races. Id rather boil my head than have all of the excitment and drama of drivers on the edge ruined by after event ding bats.
    Rossi is allowed to race in moto!

  368. Hamilton was robbed! We’ve all seen worse atacking moves at the chicane’s at many different tracks over the years and they have gone without penalty…

    I did,nt hear Brundle say anything about the move Lewis made on Kimi nor did I hear Blundell say anything after the race, so they must have thought it was fair racing and thats what we want to see…

    Lets fast faward a bit after the 1st corner when Kimi got back in front of Hamilton with a back marker between them…

    If Kimi had’nt stuck it in the wall and went on to win at SPA would the penalty still have been awarded to Hamilton Mmm…

    But then we all know where Bernie’s loyalties lie?

  369. michael counsell
    8th September 2008, 22:38

    Viewing figures will increase. No doubt about it.

  370. I can’t believe how many comments there are on this subject on so many sites. I have never seen a controversial decision produce so much comment and almost unanimously one sided. Clearly last night there was much discussion but I switched on my computer this morning and got 280 e-mails of comments from this thread. I hvae never had anything close to that number before.

    I understand why people have had enough of F1 but please don’t give up on the sport we need to find a way to drive out the people who are ruining.

    On another forum someone who watched the Italian coverage said they had Cesare Fiorio as part of their commentary team and he said the decision was stupid and ruined a great race. For anyone who has never heard that name before he used to run the Ferrari team about 20 years ago. Prior to that he ran the very successful Lancia rally team.

  371. ~~~than he would have been had he (somehow) managed to slow his car ~~~

    Well he could have tried the brakes. I am sure they would have had an effect on him (somehow) managing to slow the car.

    Although after his pitlane ‘accident’ in Canada and rear ending Alonso in Bahrain slowing down his car to an acceptable speed to take corners probably isnt as easy for Hamilton than it is for other drivers who seemed to manage it for 44 laps.

    Hamilton really needs to cool his driving style. If the FIA really wanted to get him they would just need to ban refueling like in the good old days. Hamilton can’t look after a set of tyres to save his life (Shanghai 07 anyone). Thats why he always fuels light for pole and charges around boasting that no one overtakes him.

  372. If only environmental or human rights issues got this much interest…….

  373. Here is a link to a petition to the FIA:

    Sign it and e-mail it to all your friends if you agree the decision was unfair. (I could say more harsh words but I won’t)…


  374. online petitions are a dime a dozen Bill, won’t make any difference to anything I’m afraid.

  375. Angry comment # 54 – email sent to F1 website.

    S Hughes comment # 144 – petition signed (over 18000 signatures when I went on there), and snail mail letter soon to be sent to the FIA in Paris.

    Most of you have covered already the main points of the matter, so I won’t add much more except to say I leave for Singapore in 2 weeks, and all of a sudden I am not looking forward to that anymore. This has left a real bad taste in my mouth.

    Not happy Jan.

  376. @ Pink Peril

    I know what you mean. We spent £500 on grandstand seats for Silverstone this year and we have just spent the same for next year and all of a sudden it seems less worth it!

  377. @ mail123456;

    “…@Uncle Ron – how about that:
    “Lewis deserved to win but it was taken away, Schumacher, who now races in the German touring car series DTM, wrote in the German newspaper Bild. “To me, it was fair overtaking,” he added.”

    That was Ralf’s opinion… why not ask Michael’s?

  378. @CD – because next thing what Ralf says was:
    “In my experience, Ferrari has always had priority in Formula One, which we have seen in many situations” :)

    also look what Lauda said (he won two titles with them):
    “Austrian great Niki Lauda – who raced both for Ferrari and McLaren – has revised his opinion that the FIA is not biased in favour of the Prancing Horse.

    “I never believed those stories,” he told Bild newspaper this week.
    “But it is clear to me now – Ferrari does get preference.”

    btw you can listen that with his voice:

  379. I’ve read a lot of comments here, and I have come to appreciate that a lot here allow either a like or dislike for a driver or team, to affect their reasoning or interpretation of an actual event.

    Lewis had to make an instant 45 degree turn to avoid Kimi’s car.

    There was no way he could have applied the brakes in instance and not have both cars come together.

    If you watch the on board video from Lewis’ car, you can actually hear when the cars touch.

    Kimi then drove like a mad man till he crashed out.

    In Fuji or was it china, Kimi was able to over take DC be repeatedly running off the track and gaining an advantage from it, yet no action was taken.

    Rules are rules. If u must apply it for one, then apply it for all.

  380. **Correction

    I meant in Fuji, by repeatedly running off track.

  381. Well one of my brother told me a FIA RULEBOOK updated in this year says that > “Advantage gained should be given back FOR ONE LAP” <
    Is it true?

  382. Shahriar asked: ““Advantage gained should be given back FOR ONE LAP” <
    Is it true?”

    No. The rule says nothing about distance or time.

  383. Alianora La Canta
    9th September 2008, 12:37

    In fact, the rule says nothing about mitigation action of any kind. In theory, Hamilton could have stopped, eaten a picnic and discovered his engine wouldn’t start afterwards and still been penalised.

  384. Alianora La Canta
    9th September 2008, 12:39

    The trouble with writing the rule that way is about 15 other drivers technically broke the same rule without penalty (there’s nothing in Article 30.3 that says that leaving the track without gaining a sporting advantage is permitted either).

  385. Had Lewis braked at the chicane he would have spun and probably taken Kimi out. In the wet on a bend in an F1 car near a kerb applying the brakes would be stupid. Lewis took the sensible approach to avoid a collision.

    Going over the finish line Lewis was travelling 6km/h slower than Kimi and went completely behind him. Going slower and being behind a driver seems to me like giving up any advantage. At this point when he was behind Kimi he was not slipstreaming him. There is no slipstream effect until two or more car lengths behind a car in front. Picture cars running in the wet and think of where the rooster tails are. Lewis was in the area where the air is travelling upwards and backwards and is incredibly turbulent. This would have caused instability in his aerodynamics and would have done nothing for his grip.

    The only reason he attacked Kimi into La Source was because Kimi took a slow wide entry into the corner as if he was the only car on the road. Had Kimi taken a more sensible line there would not have been a gap to attack.

    Live on Italian TV Cesare Fiorio who used to run Ferrari was incensed by the penalty. He said it ruined the best race of the decade. If someone who used to run Ferrari can not only disagree with it but get genuinely angry I find it hard to understand how anyone else can make any kind of case for it.

  386. Kimi it should be pointed out went way into a run off area at one of the fast left handers and found a lot of grip presumably due to no rubber being there which is a bonus in the wet. He came out of it right on Lewis tail despite being at leat 10 metres off the track. No punishment or comment from the stewards was made on that incident.

  387. @ @ mail123456;

    Why should any other driver opinions matter…ie Michael Schumacher?

    It wasnt him or any other team or driver who made the decision

  388. Steven Roy said: “he was behind Kimi he was not slipstreaming him. There is no slipstream effect until two or more car lengths behind a car in front”.

    This is not the case.

    When two cars are travelling together in close proximity the lead car is pushing through the air and at the rear of that car the air pressure is lower. The air may be turbulent but it is being sucked along by the first car. The second car is therefore driving into air that is already moving in the direction of travel and thus the ‘wind resistance’ is reduced. This allows the car behind to travel with less resistance. The further apart the two cars are the less the advantage in terms of straight line speed gained by the rear car. Look at nascar for an example. The issue of down-force is different. In a straight line the cars want as little down-force as possible as down-force caused more ‘rolling resistance’ due to the extra ‘weight’ put through the tyres and the more ‘wing’ (angle away form horizontal to the ground) the more drag is created and therefore the greater the aerodynamic drag. When cornering the car needs more down-force to increase the grip of the tyres.

    However, in this case LH was on the left side of KR out of ‘The BusStop’ and only very briefly was in the slipstream as he passed behind KR to move to the right of him. The amount of ‘tow’ was insignificant and would not have made up for the 6km/h speed difference

  389. @KB – actually there is no reason to listen or believe any of them, since FIA have stewards that make the decision (right on not), BUT they like everyone of us are spectators and again BUT they have actual experience driving Formula 1 car …
    If Michael Schumacher like to speak about this we will knew what he thinks also. Actually I think that some (or most) of current drivers will be with stewards (Massa, Kimi and Trully make some point on results) – FIA effect – If you talk to much this is bad. You have to say every time the same boring phrases and from couple of years we actually never hear anything interesting on these conferences. There is nothing wrong to say something. But to say nothing like stewards did is wrong. To give 2 paragraphs where “gaining advantage” missing, and to make people waiting hours before make decision is also bad. How we know what they thought when make a decision since we have one sheet of paper with 3 signatures and 2 paragraphs about leaving a track …

  390. (…sorry, have not read all 394 entries…however)

    I’m disappointed that, among other things, chicanes of this type are constructed in such a manner that it is possible to obtain an advantage on the road after having cut across them. Is it impossible to design a barrier that would physically slow the cars, without launching them in the air? I’m not a civil or mechanical engineer, but I can think of a few possibilities, so there must be some functional way to achieve such a goal. Many of our “human problems” could be avoided by a more functional design in our interactive world. Sorry if this post doesn’t display the requisite level of emotional outrage. (I’m still numb after last years McLaren/Ferrari imbroglio.)

  391. My understanding has always been that the first 10 metres(ish) behind a car is effectively a high pressure area due to the flow from the diffuser, beam wing and rear wing converging and rising. In something like NASCAR where there are no sophisticated aero devices I know there is bump drafting where cars which are in contact can slipsteam but that is not my understanding of what happens in modern F1 cars.

    I would have thought the only possible advantage being in that area would have may be a slight intake ram effect from the rooster tail hitting the airbox above the driver’s head.

    Either way as you said he was not in that position for anything like long enough to make up the 6km/h.

  392. Steven Roy said “the first 10 metres(ish) behind a car is effectively a high pressure area due to the flow from the diffuser, beam wing and rear wing converging and rising.”

    If this is the case, why is it that newer articulated lorries have extensions on the front of the trailers to minimise the gap between the tractor unit and the trailer? the reason is to maximise the slipstreaming effect on the trailer. Modern tractor units also have a “spoiler”/”rear wing” mounted on the top of the cab to diffuse the air-flow over the tractor unit to disrupt the air so as to cause less drag from the trailer. this causes a low pressure area. This is also the reason that lorry drivers travel in convoy in close proximity to each other. The closer they are the less air the second, third, etc. vehicle has to push out of the way and the lower the fuel bill for the trip!

    With an F1 car (or any moving object for that matter) the air is pushed out of the way by the car. This increases the pressure of the air above, below and beside the car. As soon as the car is out of the way the air behind rushes in to fill the void (low pressure area) left by the car moving out of the way. The air rushes in to fill the low pressure area with air from the high pressure areas above, below and beside the path of the car.

  393. Just to add to my last comment, here’s a web site that explains it: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Slipstreaming#Drafting_in_motorsport

  394. For those people who think that KR gave LH room in the left hand part of the chicane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3s2mgukB9Y

  395. Ferrari Inside Association (FIA)

  396. Long term F1 Fan #401.

    Because trucks don’t have diffusers, beam wings or low level highly sophisticated aerofoil wings. A truck effectively blocks all the air so that it has to pass round, over or under it leaving an immediate low pressure area behind it. An F1 car has air effectively going through it. For example under the rear wing and being kicked up by the diffuser. A truck is more like a stock car hence the NASCAR bump drafting analagy. Effectively a truck and trailer are bump drafting.

    A truck or stock car is effectively a solid shap like a brick. An F1 car or any sophisticated single seater is not. with an articulated truck you would strugle to get any kind of rooster tail effect in the wet for example.

    The air going under a truck will mainly go under the trailer too because of the ground clearance. An F1 car is much clser to the ground and has a difusser so the air that should go under the following car doesn’t. First because it is lifted by the diffuser on the preceding car and second because there is so little ground clearance.

  397. As a kubica fan i can honestly say there are a lot of very biased comments. Firstly, i wan to say the decision to inflcit a 25 sec penalty was a harsh one, however numerous things must be considered:
    1) Hamilton already did a similiar thing in France
    2) he rammed Kimi in the back in the pitlanes when the light was red

    Lat year he even managed to get away with the Caterpillar taking him off the gravel trap and back on track. That episode was not illegal, but was not sportsmanlike either.

    This last episode is the same. He comes into the corner to deep (Kimi was following his normal racing line, and even if Lewis had edged him, 10-20 cm ahead in late braking on the exterior cannot be considered you have passed your adversary) He completely cuts the chicane , making no effort to try and minimize the “cut”, obstructs Kimi’s exit , and bang right into hi slip stream to overtake again. The rules only say you have to give back the position and Lewis in a few seconds brilliantly took a disadvantageous position to his advantage. However it was not sportsmanlike at all. Th problem here are the rules, if there was grass or gravel in the chicane, surely he would have lost more time.

    Given the previous episodes and LEwis’s rpeutation for being too aggressive (which yes is ironic in its own right as he is a F1 driver) i personally think here is where we see Lewis’s only weak spot, due to lack of experience more than anything else; given the past penalties he should have kept his cool and tried to pass him a few corners laters, particularly as he was racing against Massa more than Kimi.

    Please no conspiracy theories, how many times have Ferrari had decisions go against them, and if we really need to be so picky then should McLaren even be allowed to race given the scandal and constant denial lies of last year?

    At least the season finale will be more ineresting and i will be watching Monza and all other races.

  398. So your saying that an F1 car is somehow using a different set of the fundamental laws of physics?

    You should write a paper on that!

    Just because SOME of the airflow is through the car does not mean that the car has negative mass. ANY mass passing through the air has to conform to the laws of fluid dynamics.

  399. the bottom line is lewis always tries to outbreak people and gets into trouble. lewis should grow up a lot. he is not the greatest driver as some britih fans feel. he is not at all comparable with micheal.

  400. Just wondering whether LH will be allowed to overtake Kimi or Massa at Monza, or should he wait until next season to be on the safe side!!

  401. if it was a german in a red car,it would of been an outstanding bit of diving……. f 1 just as it seems to be getting better it shoots it’self in the foot. I don’t think i’ll bother watching the rest or next year.

  402. If that was a red car instead of Hamilton not one word would have been said by the stewards. It is a total fix, I will not be watching the rest of f1 this year as it has lowered itself to the comical levels of WWE wrestling in America. shame on the FIA and the stewards.

  403. LOOK !
    just put 2 ferarris on pole & 2nd place on the grid, put hamilton 3rd & order him not to overtake & follow the favoured red cars to the finish.if he does overtake the stewards can find an excuse to penalise him to give the victory to ferarri
    the racing is over!
    ayrton senna if your watching from above you must be thinking what ever happened to REAL racing!!!
    real fans who want to see racing should boycott the next race & see the mighty F1 bosses fall & realise LEWIS HAMILTON is the finest thing to happen to the sport since AYRTON

  404. Never in the field of human conflict has so much whining been done by so few… or so many.

    Hamilton was impatient, Hamilton cheated by driving dangerously. Kimi did nothing wrong or anything illegal.


    All of you saying “well if the car hadn’t been red” blah blah blah. Well if the other car hadn’t been Hamilton would all these posts be here? No because all the GP n00bs that read this blog wouldn’t care.

  405. Most of us have probably had enough of this but I wonder how many have actually read the sporting regulations and sporting code for F1?
    Let’s not argue if the stewards were correct on Lewis but as you can see, it’s all too easy to apply the following rules to plenty of other occasions.

    Try section 16 of the sporting regulations about “Incidents”

    16.1 “Incident” means any occurrence or series of occurrences involving one or more drivers, or any action by any driver, which is reported to the stewards by the race director (or noted by the stewards and referred to the race director for investigation) which :

    – necessitated the suspension of a race under Article 41 ;
    – constituted a breach of these Sporting Regulations or the Code ;
    – caused a false start by one or more cars ;
    – caused a collision ;
    – forced a driver off the track ;
    – illegitimately prevented a legitimate overtaking manoeuvre by a driver ;
    – illegitimately impeded another driver during overtaking.

    Unless it was completely clear that a driver was in breach of any of the above, any incidents involving
    more than one car will normally be investigated after the race.

    Lewis broke the sporting code. Annex L Chapter 4 2(g)
    g) The race track alone shall be used by the drivers during the

    Lewis also failed on section 30.3(a) of the regs that says the same thing and just doubles up 16.1 and 2(g) in one line.

    30.3 a) During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the
    provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits.

    However – How many other drivers could you point these rules at. Especially about forcing another driver off the track or – “illegitimately prevented a legitimate overtaking manoeuvre by a driver”

    These are a nightmare and can be easily seen both ways.
    This needs better clarification for all our sakes!

  406. Thanks Chalky – I thought Raikkonen forced Hamilton off the track so I’d argue he deserves a punishment under article 16.1. But there are plenty of other occasions when the FIA hasn’t bothered to enforce that rule…

  407. Yes Keith, but I cannot find any breach in the Sporting Code for Kimi’s actions. Even under the whole of section 2 about overtaking. Blocking and swerving on the straights is covered but during a corner, or curve, it is not. The closest you could get would be part 2(c) as it is the only part relevant to overtaking and curves.

    Curves, as well as the approach and exit zones thereof, may be negotiated by the drivers in any way they wish, within the limits of the track. Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be done either on the right or on the left. However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers such as premature changes of direction, more than one change of direction, deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited and shall be penalised, according to the
    importance and repetition of the offences, by penalties ranging from a fine to the exclusion from the race. The repetition of dangerous driving, even involuntary, may result in the exclusion from the race.

    It would be, in my mind, unfair to say Kimi did something wrong here against the Sporting Code.

    However the manoeuvre did force Lewis off the track (breaching the Sporting regulations) and was a contributing factor for Lewis cutting the track (breach of code and regulations).
    I would have thought that common sense would prevail and one breach of regulations each would be weighed against each other. Obviously not.

    That makes me wonder if the reason the stewards only looked at this Incident on the side of Lewis was because he breached rules on Sporting Code as well as the Sporting Regulations?

  408. I am an avid F1 fan and have been for years and my experience is that there are always controvercial decisions and emotional responses, whatever the sport.

    I think that Reikonnen did nothing wrong in pushing Hamilton to hold the position, that’s motor racing and Hamilton gained an advantage by cutting the corner but then gave the position back, in my view that should have been the end of it. I can’t remember a driver ever being penalised for cutting a corner after having given the position back.

    This ruling to penalise Hamilton is a step too far, it’s clear that there are different rules for the 2 top teams.

    How can any driver or team decide how far they should drop back in such circumstances in the future?

    The only issue here is the stewards interference, everything else is emotion or support for a particular driver or team, I’m not a Hamilton or Ferrari fan.


  409. I went to every F1 GP in Adelaide. Since then I have watched them on TV. Agfter Spa in have stopped doing both. You have lost a great F1 fan. Michael

  410. If you want to really do something then contact FIA direct :
    Here is an FIA administration email address –

    I just did a test to ascrivener@fiacommunication.com (the UK lawyer for F1)it bounced back in 30sec, but now after some 5 mins -no returns for the following :
    I have just sent an email to A Scrivener (ascrivener@fia.com) and it has not returned, so any of the following people who are at the FIA should be contactable….see http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/E688E726E7A6A7B4C1257384006176A8/$FILE/CompoTAI2007-2008.pdf?Openelement
    for a full list of members

    Or how about on a current FIA publication…….
    Richard Woods
    FIA Director of Communications
    Tel +33 1 43 12 58 14
    Fax +33 1 43 12 58 19
    Email rwoods@fiacommunications.com

    Now load that onto a web site for everyone to see!!!!!!!

  411. Probably a most unfair penalty, afterall F1 is supposed to be about racing.
    Hamilton was advised that the Race Director was OK with his giving up the position. He then raced and won.

    However the comments regarding the appeal ( waiting to see the result before Monza) are pie in the sky. The appeal if even it is allowed to be heard will not come before the court until nearly or even after the season is over.

    Let Hamilton show that he can win despite probable bias and undue influence by the F1 mafia(t)

  412. I thought this laid it out pretty well


    what are your thoughts?
    has everyone moved on?

  413. i guess hamilton didnt need the appeal anyway……

  414. I condemn FIA/FERRARI joint venture….

    Lewis is an aggresive driver and he deserves a title…..
    Last yesr he was a rookie and this is his second year……
    so I would say,
    “Neihbor’s(Ferrari/FIA) envy owners(Ron Dennis/McLAREN) pride…”
    Best of luck to Lewis……

  415. second position was again perfectly OK for his World Championship

    Thats Lewis though, he takes risks for the racing, unlike the Ferrari drivers which are happy to do ‘just’ enough – and even then fall short.

  416. I still laugh at this, and all the other mistakes Hamilton has made in his 2 year f1 career, which are quite a few now, haha :)

    Still in all seriousness Hamilton WAS in the wrong and deserved it, anyways the bugger won the championship anyway so who cares. Oh and now hes done that Ron Dennis has left :) Woppey! thumbs up from everyone then

    Cant wait until Melbourne
    Good luck to Kubica and BMW

  417. Not only that but all the mistakes he is now still making in his third year! Ruining his tyres and multiple spins in Shanghai, 20th by the first corner in Bahrain and can’t even complete four laps of qualifying in Monaco. Dont even get me started on having to lie his way get better results at the expense of punishment to his peers…

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