Vettel stays on top in Brazil

57 comments on “Vettel stays on top in Brazil”

1. 

   Alexi
   5th November 2010, 17:38

   No more rain predicted for qualifying. Tomorrow should follow pretty much the positions of this practice.
   1. 

      f1alex
      5th November 2010, 17:54

      Really?! Damn, I wish i’d seen this before entering my prediction!
      1. 

         RobertG
         5th November 2010, 18:03

         F1.com says it will be rain! Although they just said it will be storm…
         1. 

            Alexi
            5th November 2010, 21:20

            Well I’m checking the most reliable Brazilian weather service so…
            1. 

               f1alex
               5th November 2010, 21:22

               …so my prediction’s screwed lol :D
            2. 

               Alexi
               5th November 2010, 21:56

               Update – but it seems like it will rain cats and dogs during the morning. Track could very well remain wet due to cloudy conditions.
            3. 

               RobertG
               5th November 2010, 21:58

               please, i wanna see a link
            4. 

               Alexi
               5th November 2010, 22:20

               Fine –

               http://globoesporte.globo.com/motor/formula-1/noticia/2010/11/meteorologia-preve-treinos-e-corrida-sem-chuva-em-interlagos.html

               Article on news site and

               http://previsaonumerica.cptec.inpe.br/

               Click 30h option and beyond to see rain predictions for Saturday night and Sunday morning.
2. 

   Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
   5th November 2010, 17:40

   WELL DONE Nick!.. ahead of both Mercs!
   1. 

      BBT
      5th November 2010, 17:44

      Never noticed that, yes, very well done.
      1. 

         Adam Tate
         5th November 2010, 20:56

         It’s just a damn shame Sauber is being bought out by all that money from Mexico, Nick is proving he more than deserves a race seat next year.
3. 

   sumedh
   5th November 2010, 17:41

   This is more like the usual standings. Unfortunate to see Massa behind Alonso at Brazil too. He has been faster than him atleast on the Massa-tracks, Bahrain, Istanbul, but slower today.
   But I won’t mind Ferraris starting 3rd and 5th on the grid. A good getaway from the clean side, coupled with Mark’s usual slow start could mean Vettel-Alonso-Massa 1-2-3 after the first lap.
   1. 

      chemakal
      5th November 2010, 18:46

      thats it. My prediction too
   2. 

      ATS
      5th November 2010, 20:55

      That would be a fine first lap order for me! Though I do still hope Felipe wins his home race.
4. 

   BBT
   5th November 2010, 17:42

   Good showing from Lucas di Grassi

   Trulli nice and close to the Toro Rossos
5. 

   MercedesBeanz
   5th November 2010, 17:43

   Just had a thought, the aero and mech engineers out ther will know what I’m on about. Could Red Bull’s front wing ‘flexibility’ in low down force areas be because they are using SMA’s (shape memory alloys) embedded into the composite matrix structure of their front wings!
   I wonder. These could be actuated without the need for ‘moving’ or mechanistic devices and can lead to changes in shape of the composite material of the front wing and also would not be detectable in mechanical testing!??
   1. 

      sumedh
      5th November 2010, 18:02

      The composites engineer of Red Bull was present at the Belgian GP. So, the theory that is floating around is that the RedBull front wing is made up of a composite and no the usual carbon-fibre.

      SMAs come under the category of alloys and usually are made out of metals. Ergo, they are very heavy. And F1 teams like to play around with the weight, which is why we see carbon fiber chassis and titanium ballast weights.

      Red Bull has cleverly allowed its wing to flex only under very high loads, higher than the FIA’s tests, this feature although being hailed as breakthrough, isn’t that unknown to engineering students across the world. The ‘Stress-strain curve’ – Stress being the load and strain being the deflection – is linear for all homogeneous materials till a limit – called yield point. For loads that exceed yield point, the increase in strain per unit increase in stress is higher, thus, if 100 N produced 10 mm deflection, and 100 N is the yield point, then 110 N is more likely to produce 12 mm instead of 11mm deflection. This stress strain curve is fixed for all the normally available metals such as iron, steel, etc. But the beauty of carbon composites is that depending on the polymerization of the chains and their chemical bonds (single, double, triple), each carbon composite has a unique stress-strain curve. The trick is to find THAT composite whose yield point lies exactly between the maximum load used in FIA’s test and the normal downforce produced by an F1 car.

      This might be my longest comment ever on F1 Fanatic :)
      1. 

         Vishy
         5th November 2010, 18:06

         Isn’t the Yield point also the point where the material gives up and undergoes permanent deformation?
         1. 

            Anagh
            5th November 2010, 18:19

            @Vishy, Yeah it is. It loses elasticity n begins to deform plastically.
         2. 

            sumedh
            5th November 2010, 18:19

            Any excess deformation that occurs at loads beyond the yield point is permanent. Like in the above mentioned example, if load were reduce to 100 N again, deflection now would be 11mm instead of 10mm.

            But Red Bull won’t mind that, would they? And do the FIA test the wing before and after a race? Both times? I don’t think so.
         3. 

            f1alex
            5th November 2010, 18:21

            By that do you mean “the point it finds itself lodged in the side of Button’s mclaren”? :D (Before you ask, no I’m not a button fan, and yes it was only a joke :))
      2. 

         Anagh
         5th November 2010, 18:16

         Oh! And Mclaren couldnt find it? thatz a shame. How do u find the point? Trial and error right?
      3. 

         MercedesBeanz
         5th November 2010, 18:23

         With all due respect, and I’m an engineer, you’re talking like an undergrad. The “Yield point” is never reach inn ‘elastic’ deformation, beyond it you get ‘plastic’ i.e. PERMANENT deformation! so I would suggest further reading on Wkiipedia ;)

         SMA’s are metallic alloys, yes, but they are not heavy: glasses frames an example.
         Some composite designs are already using composite electrically actuated, they extend and contract when a current is sent through them and as they are embedded within the composite matrix, the alter its shape.

         I think Boenig’s dream liner may be using this tecnology, as sensors in the wings rather than for actuating deformation, just a guess, but there are several aeronautical bodies experimenting with these designs as an alternative to flaps, rudders etc..

         Also I would suggest you look as a technical definition of the term ‘composite material’
         1. 

            Anagh
            5th November 2010, 18:27

            Well thank you for calling me as an undergrad. But i did Wiki it and thats wat i found. I might have forgotten to mention “beyond.”
            1. 

               MercedesBeanz
               5th November 2010, 18:29

               My response was to Sumedh not to you Anagh. I must have clicked the wrong ‘Reply’ tab.
         2. 

            Anagh
            5th November 2010, 18:37

            Batmans cape uses tat technology. It hardens up to form a glider thing n lets him fly when he passes electricity thru it. :D
         3. 

            sumedh
            5th November 2010, 18:51

            Well, I am an undergrad student :). Haven’t finished my engineering yet. Not too interested in mechanical anyways. This is what I remembered from my 2nd year.

            SMAs are generally used to remember the shapes of materials dependent upon their temperature. So, they elastically deform at higher temperatures and return to original temperatures. Now, perhaps RedBull have some sort of a small sensor in the front wing which changes its temperature depending upon the load subjected to it, and somehow transmit this temperature across the rest of the front wing and get it to deform, seems complex but do-able.

            Another idea I had was based on a simple experiment we did in school. A copper bar & Steel bar are attached to each other along their longest face, and both of them are heated simultaneously. The entire material bends towards one side as the heat co-efficients are different for the 2 metals. I presume the same could be done on two different composites and use some sort of a temperature – load conversion sensor.

            Nice talking to you, too bad its off-topic and Keith might move these comments to somewhere else.
            1. 

               MercedesBeanz
               5th November 2010, 22:08

               SMA’s is the unmberlla term that covers a wide range of metallic alloys that regain or recover there original ‘shape’ after being taking, to use your term, their ‘yield point’, up to a certain degree. There is a class of these materials that can be induced to expand/extend/change their structure by running a small electric current though them. These have already been incorporated into the matrices of carbon/resin (composite) materials, the type used to manufacture F1 body parts, and when a current is sent through the SMA alloy elements running through the composite matrix, the SMA fibers will extend and expand and deform the matrix within which they are embedded i.e. change shape. These materials are highly engineered so as to control the shape of the deformation.

               So what you have is a way for ‘carbon fiber’ parts to flex and bend according to the strength and duration of the current sent through them, without the need for any external loading or moving mechanical parts to affect this change.

               I’m just guessing and hoping someone would shed moore light on the subject because I saw the series of stills that clearly show the front of the RB6 ‘flexing’ and i’m suggesting, given that the fia couldn’t figure out how this was happening, that maybe redbull are using something along these lines.

               If so, I think we are about, if the fia doesn’t ban this, to enter a knew era in F1 aerodynamic car design, where all sorts of wings, and flaps become change shape and ‘flex’ according to the drivers requirements rather than external conditions on the track. Remember we’re already expect to have, as i understand it, movable wings to be part of F1 next year.

               i don’t know, but the technology to change the shape of carbon fiber at will is already here and maybe redbull are using it already? :|
      4. 

         Anagh
         5th November 2010, 18:24

         okay herez an interestin thing i just ran into while googling.

         Brittle materials such as carbon fiber do not have a yield point, and do not strain-harden. Therefore the ultimate strength and breaking strength are the same. One of the characteristics of a brittle failure is that the two broken parts can be reassembled to produce the same shape as the original component as there will not be a neck formation like in the case of ductile materials. A typical stress strain curve for a brittle material will be linear.

         :-?
         1. 

            Alex White
            5th November 2010, 18:57

            Can you use an ‘s’ instead of a ‘z’?
         2. 

            MercedesBeanz
            5th November 2010, 22:19

            “Brittle materials such as carbon fiber do not have a yield point” Yes and that is why you don’t use carbon fiber on its own. What ppl call carbon fiber, actually a ‘composite’ material made of carbon fibers, in form of sheets and plys, embedded in an epxoy type resin to form a ‘composite’ of carbon/resin which when ‘baked’ hardens into the shape you want. Both these materials are almost useless as ,engineering materials, on their own, you’ve to combine them to get what ppl lazily call carbon fiber, which is actually a composite of two separate materials.
            1. 

               Anagh
               6th November 2010, 3:55

               And FIA doesnt have any rules that govern the type of material they use to make an F1 car? I thought Carbon Fibre was used specifically due to itz crushing characteristics as it behaves as a crumple zone to reduce impact force during crashes…
      5. 

         Bartholomew
         5th November 2010, 18:29

         I thought the whole thing was made up of sheetmetal beaten into shape with a hammer
6. 

   Nixon
   5th November 2010, 17:45

   Wow Alonso really upped the pace consiering his problems, but i think he only has one engine left for the last 2 (most engine straining tracks in my opinion) races hmmmm…
   1. 

      Tom
      5th November 2010, 18:11

      It’s also the same engine he did Monza with.
7. 

   John
   5th November 2010, 17:46

   So that’s how Button was supposed to help Hamilton? who want to bet Jenson will say tomorow after quali “the car was undriveable”
   1. 

      CapeFear
      5th November 2010, 17:52

      “No grip, I just had no grip, yeah we need to look at the data.”
      1. 

         Anagh
         5th November 2010, 17:59

         no no, I cudnt get heat into the front tyres, No heat no heat! Even if we heat it with an iron, he’ll still complain! :D
   2. 

      Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
      5th November 2010, 17:57

      he isn’t supposed to help Hamilton.
   3. 

      Cacarella
      5th November 2010, 18:00

      He better not help Hamilton – Or he’ll get arrested by the Brazilian authorities!
   4. 

      bananarama
      5th November 2010, 18:06

      If he doesn’t get the tyres up to grip thats what will happen, yes. Surely he should have ‘learned’ by now how these tyres work but he hasn’t and now he shouldn’t bother anymore either since we’ll have new ones next year. Maybe they will be perfect for him and he’ll get his next WDC. (I doubt it, but nobody knows yet)
      1. 

         George (@george)
         5th November 2010, 18:27

         I think it’s more likely the tyres will be even harder to warm up next year, pirelli tended to be harder wearing/better in hot conditions in the past.
8. 

   dyslexicbunny
   5th November 2010, 17:48

   Tomorrow should be interesting at the top. A shame I’ll miss watching both live.
9. 

   d-d
   5th November 2010, 17:59

   Well, I bet that Mark will keep his cool and get the pole tomorrow. But his words war about Vettel seems to indicate the contrary, I’m afraid he’s going to feel pressed and make errors like in Australia.
   1. 

      George (@george)
      5th November 2010, 18:28

      It worked for him in Britain though, who knows?
10. 

    rfs
    5th November 2010, 18:03

    Mclaren’s only hope tomorrow will be that it rains, the Ferraris and Red Bulls somehow get knocked out in Q1, and they qualify in the second row at least.
    1. 

       Anagh
       5th November 2010, 18:06

       it rained in korea. i dont think they are tat good anymore.
    2. 

       RobertG
       5th November 2010, 18:09

       remember where were mclarens last year, with rain!
11. 

    Oliver
    5th November 2010, 18:11

    Yet Redbull keep complaining about their Renault Engines.

    I think Kobayashi’s move on Rosberg was more a case of him trying to give Rosberg the racing line rather than trying to block him as Anthony Davidson alluded. If he was trying to block why would he still let him past.

    Which brings me back to why I think Martin Brundle and Karun Chandok make very good commentators. They always seem to read a drivers intention more accurately and give insightful analysis of what a car is doing. Neither do they make patronising comments about other drivers.
    Seems to me Anthony Davidson and David Croft just love the sound of their own voices.
    1. 

       George (@george)
       5th November 2010, 18:31

       Well Crofty thought he was trying to let him past and Ant thought he was blocking (I did too), they cant both be wrong.

       Even if he was trying to let him past he shouldn’t of waited til the end of the straight when Rosberg was right in his gearbox. I cant remember too well, didn’t he cause the accident with Nakajima there last year on the same straight?
       1. 

          Oliver
          5th November 2010, 19:33

          Well if he tried to block him off, why did he then move out of the way? That was just a simple driver misunderstanding. Don’t forget, Rosberg really closed up on him pretty much, perhaps he thought Rosberg wanted to maintain the racing line and moved over, when he saw Rosberg had already taken the inside line, he moved back out of the way.
          1. 

             Aussie Fan
             6th November 2010, 2:05

             perhaps he just got surprised by how well Mercedes “Passive” F-Duct is working now. Apparantely their version is the only one legal to use next year too, as it is not an “Actual” f-duct, by the accepted definition.
12. 

    Pete
    5th November 2010, 18:40

    I agree with Button being of little help, maybe he’s getting all nostalgic and wants to race with the Lotuses as in Korea.
13. 

    Anagh
    5th November 2010, 18:42

    I just noticed Bruno beat Klien. :-?
    1. 

       Alexi
       5th November 2010, 22:28

       With some 20 extra laps, yes he did. But he was also ahead of Klien on Singapore practices and look what happened.
14. 

    Funkyf1 (@funkyf1)
    6th November 2010, 9:53

    Good to see Tonio Luizzi continuing his supposed return to form. Tell him he’s dreaming!
15. 

    jake
    6th November 2010, 13:54

    hope the ferrari engine fails during the race!! haha will spice things up even more!! could have 4drivers running for the championship in yas marina

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