Ocon sees no need to change aggressive racing style against team mates

42 comments on “Ocon sees no need to change aggressive racing style against team mates”

1. 

   S
   18th February 2023, 1:07

   CotD – Arguably, F1 will ‘Race as One’ more now than ever before.
   1. 

      F1Plossl
      18th February 2023, 1:25

      The silent Ones?
      1. 

         S
         18th February 2023, 2:01

         Those who are silent out of respect won’t offend anyone, will they.

         This is a rule that almost everyone was obeying long before it was even written anyway.
         1. 

            Tommy C (@tommy-c)
            18th February 2023, 2:56

            Yes they will. F1 will potentially offend a lot of people. The sport tried to position itself as a welcoming and inclusive environment for all walks of life only a couple of years ago. Now F1 risks again being seen as exclusive and intolerant of diversity. I hope that’s not the case but I fear it will be. I suspect we’ll see Lewis in particular continue to make plenty of noise and the FIA won’t know what to do.
            1. 

               S
               18th February 2023, 6:29

               F1 is more welcoming and inclusive of all walks of life with the FIA taking a neutral stance.
               No longer can people with beliefs and values that differ to the drivers be publicly criticised through F1’s official events or media.
               They are showing that they are more tolerant and inclusive of diversity, as opposed to (previously) supporting mainly (particular) western values.

               I’d like Hamilton to continue to show himself to be wilfully disrespectful to not only the rules and organisation which he chose to participate under, but also to the people he represents (including those in the FIA).
               The FIA would have every right to suspend his licence for repeated infractions.
               And while that may end up giving him the attention he wants, at least it should now come at a price to him personally. Choices and consequences….
            2. 

               drmouse (@drmouse)
               19th February 2023, 11:55

               @S
               It isn’t disrespectful to stand up for your beliefs, as long as those beliefs don’t impinge on the rights of others to line their life as they see fit.

               Hamilton and others standing up for the rights of discriminated minorities doesn’t impinge on others’ rights. They are free to continue as they are, but it shines a light on things they may be doing which do impinge on the rights of others. They are free to put forward their viewpoint, to stand up for their own beliefs in return.

               Silence, IMHO, is a tacit approval. I know you disagree with me on this, but I cannot see it any other way. If someone is seen shaking the hand of, say, a convicted mass murderer who has shown no remorse, smiling and chatting in a friendly manner while making no effort to distance themselves from their actions or give explanation, they will be seen as giving approval. They legitimise those actions, promoting the person involved without any highlight of the problems in their behaviour. The same is true with a politician with controversial views, in fact even more so because politicians thrive on publicity. This is far from neutral without a balancing point of view.
            3. 

               S
               19th February 2023, 13:20

               I know you disagree with me on this

               You got that right.
               Shaking someone’s hand is a standard social norm in many cultures. And that’s all it is.
               If I shake your hand, I am not endorsing or celebrating anything you’ve ever said or done in your life. I’m merely showing respect to you and to myself as the people that we are, regardless of our respective life choices.
               What if it were another culture – say, Japanese? Is bowing to the murderer just as unacceptable to you?
               I guess the Spanish two-cheek-kisses greeting would be out-of bounds, same as UAE’s rubbing of noses…

               I’d suggest that if instead of shaking your hand, I attacked you (verbally or otherwise) – it would do more to lower me to ‘your’ (example only) level than to raise you to mine.
            4. 

               drmouse (@drmouse)
               19th February 2023, 13:48

               Shaking someone’s hand is a standard social norm in many cultures. And that’s all it is.
               If I shake your hand, I am not endorsing or celebrating anything you’ve ever said or done in your life. I’m merely showing respect to you and to myself as the people that we are, regardless of our respective life choices.

               That’s the case in a standard social situation. It is not the case, IMHO, on a public platform. Under public scrutiny, the perception of a friendly handshake and conversation with a public figure, especially one with power to shape public policy and who is know to have controversial views, is not just showing respect for that person. It provides the perception of a validation of their views and policies, unless it is accompanied by an equally-visible statement denying such validation.

               By forcing the drivers to take part in activities which give the perception of validation and tacit approval of views and actions which are in direct conflict with their own beliefs and morals, while denying them the opportunity to state their opposition, the sport is being far from neutral. They are giving, at the very least, the impression of tacit endorsement of the policies represented. In my opinion, this goes directly against the very principal they are claiming to be enforcing using this rule. Particularly given that this is not a core part of the drivers’ job.

               Allow them not to take part in ceremonies which endorse beliefs which are in direct contradiction to their own, or allow them to show their conflicting standpoint, and the event is neutral. Without the above, they are forcing the drivers to give the appearance of support for things they do not. I don’t know of many jobs in this day and age which enforce such public denial of ones own personal beliefs to such a degree.
            5. 

               S
               19th February 2023, 15:39

               By forcing the drivers to take part in activities which give the perception of validation and tacit approval of views and actions which are in direct conflict with their own beliefs and morals, while denying them the opportunity to state their opposition, the sport is being far from neutral

               Nobody is forced – they willingly accept it. Such elements are the official procedures of F1, and they have every right to leave the F1 arena if they don’t wish to participate. They also retain every right to speak in opposition of whatever they want to in public – by use of their own personal media and even via their existing professional contacts from within F1. Just not on the FIA’s time.
               And yes – this is very much part of the driver’s job. It’s part of accepting a privileged position within the FIA’s sporting ladder – and if they don’t wish to do it, they can leave F1 and the FIA entirely. It is known to them all prior to reaching F1 – as by the time they get there, they’ve been doing the same old stuff for many years already in other categories all the way up the ladder. Right from beginning in karting.
               They aren’t just racing drivers, they are celebrities.

               I don’t know of many jobs in this day and age which enforce such public denial of ones own personal beliefs to such a degree.

               Sales? Hospitality? Politics? Law? Entertainment? Marketing? Social influencing? Content creation? Every job that involves dealing with customers or suppliers…?
               While you work for someone or in someone’s workplace, you are their representative to outsiders. It is implied even if it is not explicit – and very few people need to be told this.
               Go work for McDonalds – try and see how much freedom they give you to spread your own beliefs to customers. I’ll bet you’ll come out of that first (and last) day with a healthy understanding of just how much freedom F1 drivers actually have. Generally speaking – the more public a job or position is, the more leeway is given.
            6. 

               drmouse (@drmouse)
               27th February 2023, 8:48

               Nobody is forced – they willingly accept it.

               If they want to be part of F1, which most of them have dreamed of since early childhood, they have no choice.

               Giving someone a choice of “do X or you’re fired” is no choice when there is no alternative employment of similar standards available. All the power is in the employer’s hands and, where the request is not reasonable, falls under constructive dismissal. Therefore the debate is over whether this is a reasonable request.

               Sales? Hospitality? Politics? Law? Entertainment? Marketing? Social influencing? Content creation? Every job that involves dealing with customers or suppliers…?

               Few of those require putting yourself on display in front of millions of people across the world giving the appearance of support to those who stand for the very opposite of your own beliefs. They require subjugation of self in very limited circumstances, where generally only those involved in the work will see. Even then, there are often ways around it. Many employers would be reasonable and allow an employee with a strong moral objection to hand over dealing with someone to a colleague.

               Even if they didn’t, there are very few jobs where there is no alternative opportunity available. The top end of sports is fairly unique in that, and even then most have alternatives: if you disagree with the rules of the Premiere League, there are leagues on a similar level in other countries. F1 has no real alternative, so it’s F1 or something significantly different (inferior).

               Go work for McDonalds – try and see how much freedom they give you to spread your own beliefs to customers.

               This isn’t about spreading your beliefs, it’s about being forced to deny them. Even in Macdonald’s, though, I’ve seen employees allowed to stand up for their beliefs. In one instance, a group of skin heads wearing offensive iconography came in, and the staff were allowed to make their own choice as to whether to serve them. In this way, nobody needed to spread their beliefs because nobody was forced to compromise them. The equivalent here would be to stop forcing the drivers to stand at the front for national anthems (which is an overtly political requirement brought in for political reasons on the insistence of a politician), stop putting them in compromising public situations, generally attempt to actually keep politics out of F1 instead of only the drivers’ political views.
         2. 

            F1Plossl
            18th February 2023, 6:28

            “The ultimate tragedy is not the oppression and cruelty by the bad people but the silence over that by the good people.”

            Martin Luther King, Jr.
            1. 

               S
               18th February 2023, 6:32

               They only need to be silent while they are at work.
               After work is finished, they can be as loud as they wish.

               Don’t fall into the trap of assuming that people who support this rule don’t support the good work that is being done to bring about change.
               It’s all about time, place and context.
            2. 

               F1Plossl
               18th February 2023, 6:51

               ‘It’s all about time, place and context’
               That’s exactly the point, shouting into the echo chamber after work achieves nothing…
            3. 

               S
               18th February 2023, 7:30

               Just how many followers do the drivers have on their own social medias? It’s not a small audience, is it.
               And then they’ve got access to all other media outside avenues of the official 1 event time…

               Not exactly a small echo chamber. Besides, shouting isn’t exactly a positive way to get people on board.
            4. 

               F1Plossl
               18th February 2023, 9:11

               Your last paragraph kinda prov… never mind.
               The target audience isnt there followers… its Joe public
            5. 

               S
               18th February 2023, 9:40

               Who follows them? ‘Joe public.’ For the most part, the same ‘Joe public’ who watch F1 events.
               I’ll agree that it’s preaching to the (largely) converted, but then, ‘Joe public’ all have social contacts too…

               As I said – outside of that tiny bit of official FIA media time, they have access to the entire journalistic media as well.
               They do have access to everyone, and all without breaking any codes of conduct that they’ve voluntarily signed up to as a participant in the FIA’s racing system.
            6. 

               MichaelN
               18th February 2023, 10:41

               Alright, but what happens when an F1 driver ‘speaks out’? What is achieved? What is changed? What good is done? Where and in which cases do people look to F1 drivers for political, social and economic insights?
            7. 

               F1Plossl
               18th February 2023, 12:07

               @Micheal.. It raises awareness and shows to those who feel what the cause is about that there are influential people out there helping fight the fight, that they are not alone and are welcome in there arena. And seeing that most people get their news via Facebook memes its the way of the world these days ;-)
               I cannot for a second see what the problem is when someone wears a rainbow or BLM shirt etc, I see it as it must be doing something right as some are repelled by it and that speaks more about them than the cause. This really doesn’t even qualify as a first world problem… its a non event.
            8. 

               S
               19th February 2023, 8:29

               I cannot for a second see what the problem is when someone wears a rainbow or BLM shirt etc

               F1 is their workplace. This workplace doesn’t have that as part of their work uniform.
               They can wear it, and pretty much anything else they like, before and after work though. Look at some of the stuff Hamilton wears….

               some are repelled by it and that speaks more about them than the cause.

               Don’t fall into the trap of assuming that people who support this rule don’t support the good work that is being done to bring about change. It’s all about time, place and context.

               This really doesn’t even qualify as a first world problem… its a non event.

               So there’s nothing wrong with drivers accepting the conditions of the ISC in order to participate in F1, then.
               Their choice.
               If enough of them didn’t accept it, then it really might be a non-event… So to speak..
            9. 

               drmouse (@drmouse)
               19th February 2023, 11:58

               They only need to be silent while they are at work.

               No other platform will give the same visibility. Therefore them speaking up outside events doesn’t balance the view presented at the event.

               This is like newspapers which publish a factually incorrect front page article, then a tiny retraction hidden several pages in. The difference in visibility means that far more people will see and believe the initial articles than will see the retraction and know the first article was wrong.
            10. 

                S
                19th February 2023, 13:00

                No other platform will give the same visibility.

                Well, that’s a shame. Maybe they need more followers on their own social medias.

                Therefore them speaking up outside events doesn’t balance the view presented at the event.

                It doesn’t need to. Official FIA event media is not a forum for public debate, it is the FIA’s show.
                Hamilton can probably afford to start up a competing World Championship, and then he can decide what the official media of that series is used for.
                I’d like to see it.

                This is like newspapers which publish a factually incorrect front page article, then a tiny retraction hidden several pages in.

                For a direct comparison, it’s exactly the same as most other employment conditions in just about every other industry and business. When you accept an offer of employment, you accept ALL of the conditions attached to it. Codes of conduct included.

                The difference in visibility means that far more people will see and believe the initial articles than will see the retraction and know the first article was wrong.

                More fool them. Do some research before jumping to a conclusion.
                This has a comparison too – it is attention seeking behaviour just the same as publicly protesting about things not related to F1, in F1.
            11. 

                F1Plossl
                19th February 2023, 16:30

                This really doesn’t even qualify as a first world problem… its a non event.

                So there’s nothing wrong with drivers accepting the conditions of the ISC in order to participate in F1, then.
                Come on Lol, that’s not what I meant and you know it :-). The non event is people freaking out that someone wears a rainbow T-shirt for 5 minutes during the pre race say which is reaching on average 80 million people. This has nothing to do with work place rules and more about F1 and Liberty appeasing there sport washing buddies.
            12. 

                S
                20th February 2023, 1:04

                On the contrary – this is a workplace rule, and drivers risk being penalised for breaking it – regardless of how they break it.
   2. 

      Phil Norman (@phil-f1-21)
      19th February 2023, 16:40

      Your argument seems to be that if you sign up to take part in an organisation’s events or be employed by them, then you automatically need to stay silent on your personal views, when you are on duty.

      How about things like industrial disputes then or strike action, which happens in many organisations? Certainly in the free world.

      Many employees freely criticise the organisations they work for during the time they are working for them. They may being a spokesperson for this organisation in their usual role but still be critical of it. So I don’t think the F1 drivers situation is all that different. Unless you think drivers should only make their concerns public, when on official duty, via their equivalent of a union the GPDA.

      I kind of get the impression though you may not be a fan or trade unions either. Your view in a nutshell seems to be when you’re employed by someone, you need to stay silent. They own you in other words.

      I also think it’s unfair that your criticise Lewis Hamilton personally. You imply that he only does this for his own publicity which I doubt very much is the case.
      1. 

         S
         20th February 2023, 1:14

         Your argument seems to be that if you sign up to take part in an organisation’s events or be employed by them, then you automatically need to stay silent on your personal views, when you are on duty.

         To a certain extent, yes. That is normal.

         How about things like industrial disputes then or strike action, which happens in many organisations? Certainly in the free world.

         Employers don’t enjoy that behaviour from the people they pay. It’s not mutually beneficial.

         I kind of get the impression though you may not be a fan or trade unions either.

         That’s right. A group of employees who actively seek to put their own desires above those of the people who employ them. If you don’t like your work conditions and aren’t having much luck negotiating for improvements in private, go find somewhere else to work. Industrial action breaks down the partnership between worker and employee to a near-unworkable level – certainly not in the interests of the business involved, nor those of the employee.

         I also think it’s unfair that your criticise Lewis Hamilton personally.

         He’s the prime example – even more so with his recent statement that he intends to break the rules. He may not be doing it entirely for his own publicity – but the fact remains that he’s the one doing the most. It’s his choice, and he accepts the consequences of it.
         1. 

            F1Plossl
            20th February 2023, 9:22

            I get the impression that if the Internet was a thing in 1290BC you would of been rooting for Pharaoh…
         2. 

            drmouse (@drmouse)
            27th February 2023, 9:00

            The reason trade unions exist is that, generally speaking, all the power is in the hands of the employer, especially for lower-skilled employment. This imbalance doesn’t allow for a fair negotiation to take place. Employers took advantage of this, endocrinology low pay and bad conditions across the board.

            The only power employees had was to walk away, but this meant nothing in isolation and all the other employees were exploring their staff on the same way. So, to improve things, the employees banded together to stand up for themselves and level the playing field.

            I’m no fan of combative unions myself, but unions are necessary to add some balance to the employee/employer relationship.
2. 

   Scalextric (@scalextric)
   18th February 2023, 3:06

   The drivers actually have to pay entry fees. F1 doesn’t pay them, the teams do. And then they get told to toe the company line? For the sake of not offending the often corrupt race hosts? Is that it?
   Disturbing how often money ruins a good thing.
   1. 

      UNeedAFinn2Win (@uneedafinn2win)
      18th February 2023, 5:36

      The accumulated total spent just by teams on Formula 1 to this day must be close to a 100 billion (100 and 9 zeros)by now, so while quaint, the money argument is long gone with this form of sportsentertainment.
      1. 

         S
         18th February 2023, 6:38

         The accumulated total spent just by teams on Formula 1 to this day must be close to a 100 billion

         I’d argue that the total amount of money spent on F1 by teams is zero.
         They spend it on themselves, and the (relatively tiny) entry and regulatory fees are the means with which to do so (and they get all that back through prize money and commercial payments anyway).

         F1 is paying the teams – not the other way round.
3. 

   Jere (@jerejj)
   18th February 2023, 6:30

   Hopefully, his approach won’t cause on-track problems with Gasly, but I’m somewhat skeptical.

   Hill could be right, but I’m positive he’ll continue in any case.
   1. 

      HAL
      18th February 2023, 6:39

      Yeah, bring the Pop corn !

      Snaf? Anything to add ?
4. 

   F1Plossl
   18th February 2023, 7:07

   Heads up for those who didn’t know, the Asian Le Mans series 4hr hour of Abu Dhabi is on You Tube this weekend…
5. 

   Todfod (@todfod)
   18th February 2023, 7:45

   That’s how I’ve been racing my whole life and that’s how I’ve succeed and won titles in the past. And that’s how, in the end, I’ve beaten Fernando as well – racing the way I want to race.

   Esteban is a really piece of work. He’ll never miss brining up the the highlight of his career – beating Fernando last season. The whole F1 world knows he was nowhere as good as Fernando last season, and he only finished ahead because of the mechanical DNFs Alonso faced, yet, he uses that as an example of him ‘racing’ his teammates paying off big time.

   Ocon’s reputation as a poor team player precedes his mediocre talent. If he wastes most of his energy racing his teammate again, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him get booted out of the team. Can’t see any other team pushing hard to sign him either. He’s quite a forgettable talent.
   1. 

      Pflite
      18th February 2023, 9:20

      Well, when Ocon was a Mercedes paid driver on a Force India car he was way too gentle with Mercedes drivers, compared to his standards…I guess he was already a race driver at that time…
   2. 

      Stephen Crowsen (@drycrust)
      18th February 2023, 9:37

      Even though Esteban did score more points than Fernando in 2022 (but not in 2021), loosing Fernando must have hurt. I’m surprised Esteban has presented this gung-ho “I will drive my way” attitude at a pre-season press conference. I can’t imagine Otmar letting him out on the track without having pruned that ego a bit.
   3. 

      Tunde
      18th February 2023, 11:13

      Russell beating Hamilton is important but Ocon beating Alonso isn’t?

      Whatever happens is part and parcel of the championship. He did his job and with luck, he beats his partner just like Russell did. Spare me please
   4. 

      Tifoso1989 (@tifoso1989)
      18th February 2023, 12:59

      @todfod
      I completely agree. Ocon has always struck me as arrogant, but I didn’t realize he was so delusional as to claim that he beat Fernando. In terms of pace, he was nowhere near Alonso, and in qualifying, he was outclassed by ridiculous gaps of over 0.5 seconds that persisted for several races.

      Every driver must race anyone, including their teammates. However, Ocon has a history of damaging his tires, squandering fuel, risking collisions, and engaging in pointless battles with his teammates that only serve to sabotage their races.
      1. 

         Jogo
         18th February 2023, 18:55

         We are not in 1988. The only thing that counts is having more points. Alonso knows it very well, this was always his main strategy. If your rival has mechanical failure being faster than you that’s his problem, not yours. Nurburgring 2005? Suzuka 2006? Korea 2010? Valencia 2012?
      2. 

         Todfod (@todfod)
         20th February 2023, 6:46

         @tifoso1989
         This is the first time Ocon has finished ahead of a teammate. Must have been ego crushing for him throughout his f1 career. So, finally his teammate gets a mountain load of bad luck and finishes behind him in the points, he’s obviously going to gloat about jow his ‘racing’ everyone mentality is the winner. He’s as deluded as he is untalented.
   5. 

      Nick T.
      19th February 2023, 3:27

      100%. The idea Ocon “beat” Alonso in the truest sense of the world is laughable. Not including failures to start or participate in the race due to mechanical problems, it only required Alonso having a car failure 7 times while in the top 10 + having a bad wheel change and being forced to stop on two consecutive laps pushing him down to 14th from a top 5 position (and he STILL got back into the points with less than 10 laps to go), to “beat” Alonso.
6. 

   Mayrton
   19th February 2023, 19:30

   Alright Ocon. Bring out the popcorn! Nothing like a fierce inside team battle to hold the entire Alpine team focused on the wrong things.

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