Keke Roberg, Elio de Angelis, Osterreichring, 1982

Button supports return of ground effect aero

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Keke Roberg, Elio de Angelis, Osterreichring, 1982In the round-up: Jenson Button is in favour of increasing F1 car performance by allowing teams to exploit ‘ground effect’ aerodynamics.

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Button backs 'ground effect' aero idea (Autosport)

"If you're going to work with downforce it should come from the floor rather than the wings, because you can race closer and fight, and you don't have as much dirty air from the wings for the car following."

Hockenheim hopes for sell-out crowd in 2016 to secure German GP future (ESPN)

"We need a full house next year so that Formula One has a future."

Mercedes duo expects 'more difficult' F1 starts (F1i)

"That will throw in a lot of variables and it will be much more difficult to predict the outcome of the start."

Fresh calls for F1 to find way to better balance engine performance (Motorsport)

"I agree with Toto, we cannot hurt the DNA of F1. But this is a competition and we need to allow people to compete."

The reluctance of Monza's Imola solution (Crash)

"I asked Marchionne to support our initiative and he told me he will do whatever needs to be done, as Ferrari, to keep the grand prix at Monza."

The essential... Roberto Merhi (F1)

"What is the essential Grand Prix every fan should attend at least once in their lifetime? RM: The essential race is Macau - it’s the best as a driver."

WTCC arrives to wake up Portugal’s sleeping legend of motor sport (The Guardian)

"Tom Chilton, the brother of former Marussia F1 driver Max, has been a WTCC driver for four years. He says: 'It’s very competitive and professional. We’re not as big as Formula One but you are allowed within a mile of us without buying an expensive ticket.'"

New radio restrictions a start, but not enough (Motorsport magazine)

"It’s hardly even beginning to address the number one turn-off for a great many fans – that the drivers are being guided in how they run their races."

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Comment of the day

Yas Marina, 2014Is the problem with modern track design something besides overtaking?

Of all the things wrong with modern F1 to me the biggest issue is the tracks. The tacks are perfectly smooth, flat-kerbed, Astroturfed, Tarmaced run-off boredom. Watching a single car negotiate a modern circuit is simply not exciting. In many cases it is not even interesting.

Thus everyone becomes obsessed with over taking because with out overtaking there is nothing else.

I can watch races from the 70s and 80s all day because watching the cars bump and skip over a surface, on the edge with a high kerb and grass next to the track is interesting and exciting on its own, any over taking was just a bonus.

It’s why I laugh every time someone says ‘rose tinted glasses, the racing was no better’ etc… Well the racing was no better back in the day because it did not need to be, the cars and tracks provided all the drama needed.

These days watching a single car go around a track like Abu Dhabi is utterly uninteresting. Hence why people are obsessing on overtaking being the be all and end all, cause it kind of is.
@Dimsim

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On this day in F1

At the end of second qualifying for the 1970 British Grand Prix at Brands Hatch on this day 45 years ago Jochen Rindt had taken pole position by an official margin of 0.0 seconds. Lap times were only given to within a tenth of a second, so because Rindt had set his time on Thursday he was given pole position ahead of Jack Brabham who matched it on Friday (the race took place on Saturday).

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  • 67 comments on “Button supports return of ground effect aero”

    1. I’ll just copy my reply to the COTD I’ve left to his original comment. :)

      I absolutely agree. I can enjoy just cruising on the coastal road, driving 60kmph, with all those elevation changes, long bends along the coast, sharp turns on the edge of the cliff, while I probably couldn’t help feeling bored after few laps of driving 200kmph around that Abu Dhabi parking lot.

      The thing with tracks like Spa, is that it looks like there is a purpose of cars driving there. It looks like they are traveling somewhere through beautiful landscapes, as opposed to Abu Dhabi, Bahrain etc. where it looks like they are just driving around in circles on an oversized go-cart track. Looks pointless.

      1. While I agree with you for the most part, there really is no comparison between some of the traditional circuits and tracks such as Abu Dhabi however on the flip side a track like Spa would look completely out of place in the dessert of Bahrain or the marina of Abu Dhabi as it’s the tracks scenery and location that is part of it’s charm, not to mention it’s hand in the changeable weather that often takes Spa to the next level.

        Would it be great to see more European race tracks come back onto the calendar, as a general rule I would say yes but for F1 to survive it has to reach markets where it hasn’t yet peaked or close to peaking, however it can certainly be done better, COTA for example I think is a great track and has a good feel about it even though it has large run off areas and it just happens to be in a very important market for F1 to finally crack.

        The unfortunate thing is, we need tracks like Abu Dhabi & Bahrain on the calendar in order for F1 to stay alive, as it wouldn’t be able to survive in Europe alone. Look at Germany, a country where motorsport while not at the schumacher level is still popular, but even they can’t keep their GP alive despite having so many German drivers on the grid.

        Having said that, it’s not like the new tracks can’t deliver some great racing, Bahrain last year was one the of the best races all year, because it’s often not the track that generates good racing at all but the circumstances around the race such as weather, saftey cars, strategy etc… A good race track does not always make a good race.

        1. @woody91 @brace Old Hockenheim’s layout was based on Mellaha Lake in Tripoli, Libya.. think a Hockenheim type track, no stadium section, forest replaced with palm trees, desert.. :)

          1. @woodyd91 Before that Hockenheim was a well used motorbike track, but was more of a triangle shape, a simpler version of old Spa for instance.

        2. Abu Dhabi and Bahrain are part of the reason why the older European circuits can’t afford F1 any more. Do you think Bernie was asking Spa for $22m a year before Abu Dhabi started paying $67m?
          I understand it’s a business and that’s what Bernie is paid to do but privately owned racetracks are never going to be able to compete with governments more than willing to put $400m towards F1 if it makes their country/administration look more legitimate.
          Perhaps that’s just the way F1 should go, a truly global tour of car park races against backdrops perfect for TV, leaving the WEC and Formula E to run fan-friendly events at the classic tracks.

        3. Sushmit Mondal
          17th July 2015, 10:23

          Being a fan from India I can say that it does not matter for F1 to get TV viewership if they race in India. Fans watch F1 for the excitement of proper racing and the wonderful technology on offer which should be opened up for the benefit of research. We are the 99% and we will always watch F1 even if they have racing primarily in Europe because not only are the tracks more interesting but also have the history to go with it. Watching Abu Dhabi and Russia as well as Korea, India do not excite me. Race on Nordshliefe, now that is exciting. Probably not possible today but that is what we want to see how the Vettels and Hamiltons compare with Lauda, Prost, Hunt or gilles Villeneuve. Yes no one wants death but the fact that you could die on those circuits made it more interesting. Which is why these current crop of drivers will never come close to the greats as they drive around in supermarket car parks instead of the truly great circuits of yester years which will always excite fans.

          1. Being a fan from India I can say that it does not matter for F1 to get TV viewership if they race in India.

            I understand what you are saying but what you talking about it hardcore F1 fans, these aren’t the people who make up the bulk of F1 viewing figures around the world, hence why in markets where F1 has moved from FTV to PTV the viewing figures have taken a massive dive. Hardcore F1 fans may be upset that what they used to be able to watch for free is no behind a pay way but the vast majority will pay anyway because they are hardcore fans.

            Race on Nordshliefe, now that is exciting. Probably not possible today but that is what we want to see how the Vettels and Hamiltons compare with Lauda, Prost, Hunt or gilles Villeneuve.

            Nope it mostly likely would be possible for many reasons but you can’t really compare Hamilton & Vettel with Lauda, Prost, Hunt etc… Because they are from different era’s, with different cars and great awareness of what can happen when things go wrong.

            Yes no one wants death but the fact that you could die on those circuits made it more interesting

            I can only talk for myself but thinking a driver could go out on the track and lose their life does not make the sport more exciting for me. A degree of danger add’s excitement but that degree certainly doesn’t stretch to death, there is nothing exciting about that possibility for me at least.

            Which is why these current crop of drivers will never come close to the greats

            Well that’s just a matter of opinion of what defines a great I suppose, there are a few drivers on the current grid who have the talent and results to mentioned along with some of the greats, but that’s just my opinion, but it is only opinion that makes “Greats” nothing else. Also remembering that some of those greats actually did race around a car park, Rosberg won his title in Vegas on a car park. Yes we have lost some great race tracks from F1 in the past and no doubt we will again but that’s how things go, it’s an evolution of the sport, some will stay with the sport and will leave, others will join the sport and others wont but you can’t stop evolving otherwise you become extinct. F1 lives in a different world that it did in the past and to survive it must change, whether some of the fans like it or not.

            1. Nope it mostly likely wouldn’t be possible *

      2. Well said @brace, couldn’t agree more. I think Abu Dhabi and Bahrain would really benefit by replacing the tarmac with what was naturally before (desert) so that they fit in with their surroundings more – instead of looking like they have been airlifted in directly from Tilke HQ. Yeh ok that’s impossible because the sand would blow all over the track blah blah but when I first heard Bahrain was getting a track I was picturing a Laguna Seca or Sears Point (track lined by dusty scrubland) but instead the track was lined by Tesco car parks, with the natural surroundings banished to beyond the circuit perimeter.

    2. You don’t need an expensive ticket to get to know the drivers in WTCC because the series sucks big time. Compared to BTCC, it lacks big time in terms of manufacturers and models involved, quality of drivers, number of races per season, excitement on track, etc. Not to even mention that a ticket for BTCC allows you to watch kazillion series that same day (Clio Cup, Ginetta Junior and SuperCup, Porsche Cup, Formula 4, etc).

      So yeah… touring cars give you the best racing in the world, but not WTCC. Besides, it’s a walk in the park for Lopez…

      1. BTCC tickets are unbelievably good value. I go to Oulton Park every year.

        The quality of the support races is excellent also.

    3. Hockenheim hopes for sell-out crowd in 2016:

      Then don’t do the same mistakes of the past. Sell low-prices tickets from 99€, discount tickets for under 18, stop selling a rubbish sandwich for 10€ and a bottle of water for 3€, a parking place for 15€ …etc. Give the people some other activities to do like concerts, challenges or kid games.

      But most and first of all stop kneeling in front of FOM and their billion pound contracts, because the sport won’t hold long before it needs you and historical events.

      Hope to be in Hockenheim next year.

      1. That does sound like a poor deal, especially the food. If organizers get too greedy, they’ll make far less money than sticking to reasonable prices. I can see why casual fans or locals wouldn’t bother and only the die-hards attend. It should be a fun day out.

        German organizers should look at how the sellout events do it. I always go to Melbourne, which is a super success every year because they do exactly what you suggest. Entry it free on a Thursday so people can have a ‘taste’ without getting any free F1 action and even meet the drivers for nothing, general entry, even on race-day is cheap, but there are plenty of upgrade options for serious fans. There are concerts, hundreds of classics cars, reasonable food prices, reasonable beer prices, picnic areas, lots of on track events with other forms of racing, free public transport to and from the event, excellent amenities, bean bag fan zones, and more. It’s a great day or weekend out, which is why every year is a success. The German GP sounds miserable in comparison.

        1. @selbbin

          The german GP is miserable, and that is compounded by Spa, Hungary and Austria being nearby (and often closer, depending where you are in germany), cheaper (especially Hungary) and having more trackside extras (especially Austria). And then you could always go and watch half a dozen DTM races + Nürburgring 24hours instead of going to the GP, for the same money. But I feel like I posted this before, when it was announced there´d be no German GP 2015.

          1. @crammond That’s a very good argument for getting out of Europe as has been done and expanding the F1 fanbase!

    4. Track design is one of the biggest problems of Formula One today, I think. There are so many circuits (just about all of the Tilkedromes, that includes COTA) that are so similar to each other and have almost identical average speeds that the groups of engineers for each team, when designing the cars, have an easier time than before because they have greater knowledge of what they have to do in order to create a car that suits all of the circuits. The challenge is narrowed for them. I’ll give you an example: Pretty much every season from 1987 and before- the circuits were all very varied. I’ll use the ’85 season as an example: There were fast circuits with 140+ mph averages (Osterreichring, Spa, Silverstone, Monza, Paul Ricard (with the 1 mile straight), Kyalami, and Brands Hatch), there were the mid-speed circuits (Zandvoort, Imola, Nurburgring GP, Jacarepagua (Rio de Janeiro), and Estoril), and there were the slow, tight and twisty tracks (Monaco, Detroit, Adelaide). Not one of those tracks looked the same back then. There are still some good ones today- Spa, Suzuka, Monaco, Monza, Silverstone, and Interlagos. In addition to different types of engines, Formula One desperately needs a greater average speed variation in all of the circuits it races on. That way, some cars do better on other circuits, worse on others. 1985 is another good example: the Lotus Ayrton Senna drove that year was clearly the best car on slow and bumpy circuits- (as demonstrated by his pole position lap at Adelaide), the McLaren MP4/2B that Alain Prost and Niki Lauda drove that year was clearly the best car through fast corners and the Brabham and Ferrari cars that year were the best cars on the long straights.

      These new, high-tech track layouts are too conservative, don’t flow properly and there are botched attempts to create overtaking (a number of Tilkedromes have that signature feature: hairpin into a long straight which leads into another hairpin). Most of the Tilkedromes feel like lamely designed street circuits that are actually purpose-built circuits (Abu Dhabi is a prime example of this). If there was a fast-ish section that led into a high speed corner which led into a long straight that ended with a hairpin (Silverstone’s Chapel/Hangar Straight section and Shanghai’s back straight are good current examples of what I am talking about; that’s why these circuits (sometimes in Shanghai’s case, often in Silverstone’s case) put on good races), that is, in my opinion, the easiest way to produce overtaking, because that kind of layout design almost always succeeds at that.

      Does anyone wonder why the Abu Dhabi circuit has never put on a good race (2010 wasn’t that great a race; it was only memorable because it was the championship decider that year, and because Petrov kept blocking Alonso the whole race)? Because 1: The layout is pathetically boring and conducive to good motor racing- although the general structure of the layout has potential. The organizers should take out all but one of the slow corners, and replace them with much faster corners while keeping the general route of the layout (like the chicane before the hairpin that leads onto the straight; just make that a long, 3rd or 4th gear constant radius corner, and the double hairpin sequence after that long straight; they should make that into a 5th gear left-right kink or something) And 2: The track is far too forgiving and, like so many F1 circuits now has way, way too much tarmac runoff area. This was demonstrated by Petrov and Alonso in 2010: Petrov was easily able to make it back onto the track in front of Alonso after going off the track multiple times. I feel as though every corner except the first corner or first sequence of corners should not have tarmac run-off area. If a driver goes off, he should be punished. Before Sochi came lumbering around, Abu Dhabi was definitely the worst track on the calendar, with Bahrain and Singapore not far behind.

      1. i regularly race 2-stroke karts on a Tilke-designed track and it even has the same characteristics. it has turns from Sepang, Shanghai, Istanbul, Bahrain – pretty much any non-street circuit. There is a lot of passing, but not as his specifically designed passing corners…

      2. mfreire I totally agree with your comment

    5. COTD is bang on. And why are tracks designed with corners which have entrances three times wider than the normal track to create overtaking, which in itself feels artificial? There may as well be a sign above the corner which says ‘overtaking lane’. None of the old classics were designed in such a manner.

      All the designers say is ‘this corner should be good for overtaking’. But none of the classics were designed like that, and for most of them overtaking is still decent, and also it is a skill.

      Talking of unnecessary slow speeds, which was mentioned above, after the third straight in Korea, there is an unnecessary slow section with two extra corners. All this does is slow the cars down and ruin the flow of the track. Why? It’s the same with Abu Dhabi, and other tracks, and it is pathetic.

      1. That is a great COTD. Dead on, really. F1 today, if anything, is too squeaky clean and politically correct for its own good. F1 (or any other form of motor racing, for that matter) never used to be politically correct- it’s political incorrectness- particularly in regards to the layouts and safety conditions of the circuits in the 70’s and 80’s was what made it really so appealing.

      2. @strontium That was some sort of late addition, originally they were going to use the straight section that was left there redundant.

        1. @fastiesty that makes me feel quite annoyed to hear, the straight section is much better :(

          1. @strontium They also made T1 a double left instead of a hairpin, and swapped the pits and grandstand around, leading to that strange pit exit.. all to give the fans a view of the water instead of more race track :P.

            1. @fastiesty In fairness I don’t think it made much difference for the fans because there weren’t any!

    6. Best COTD in a while! I´ve seen more mistakes in Austria in one weeekend than in other circuits in a decade. Bring challenging circuits back!

    7. Rumors in the Italian press suggest that Ferrari has achieved an agreement with Williams to secure Bottas services for 2016. The Williams driver will be replaced by Felipe Nasr. I just hope that this is just the silly season because the over-hyped finn who is struggling against Massa this year isn’t going to do a much better job than Raikkonen of course if he will carry this year’s momentum to 2016.
      The thing is, another driver less cheap, probably more talented and has a better record than Bottas in F1 and the best results than any driver on the grid (including Lewis and Seb) in other categories is desperate to get that Ferrari seat, as a Ferrari fan this is just depressing. F1 is just full of complex controversies, maybe Toto Wolf in this case had the upper hand and promoted his assistant better than Hulk manager.

      1. I believe Bottas will go to Ferrari to replace Raikkonen, as much as i think Bottas is a good driver, im yet to be convinced he will be a great driver. We will see.
        But my thoughts go out to Jules Bianchi and his family through this difficult time and would of thought had he been well and it didnt happen, he would of been the perfect candidate for the 2nd Ferrari seat.

        1. @johns23 Since Bianchi was sidelined, it’s inevitable that any of his peers that replace him are just that, a substitute (Hulk, Grosjean, Ricciardo, Vergne, Bottas).

          1. @fastiesty @johns23 @tifoso1989 Personally if it were up to me I would put Grosjean in the seat. He has a fair amount of experience, we know from 2013 he is quick and can race well, and has a small amount of front-running experience, and I don’t think he is in a contract for next year (although I could be wrong there). He seems like the perfect candidate in my view.

            1. @strontium That’s probably why there was a rumour at Silverstone of Grosjean on a one year deal.. I would go with Hulk for consistency, but Ricciardo and Bottas are also great shouts.

            2. But his Total sponsorship would conflict with Shell. I like Grosjean a lot too.

      2. @tifoso1989 Massa/Nasr, Williams are doubling down to keep hold of their Brazilian sponsorship! Maybe they’ll pick up Hulk once Massa retires then? 2017 – Hulk/Nasr?

      3. @tifoso1989, it would not surprise me if it plays out as you say, but I would be massively disappointed if it did, because it would mean that Hulkenberg would again not get a decent seat – not even the vacated Williams one. I would find Nasr to Williams terribly uninspiring. A decent driver that brings a decent amount of money is a sensible decision for Williams, but I don’t see any championship potential in Nasr.

        I still hold out hope, though. This time Hulkenberg’s strong performances seem to come at the right time (in contrast to the second half of 2012, for instance, when McLaren had already signed Perez). If it doesn’t happen this year, though, Nico might as well pack up and head to WEC, because I feel that, to get the best out if himself (for instance in terms of motivation and commitment), he needs a move to a top team.

      4. I think Sauber has an option on Nasr, he is more expensive than Hulk,

      5. I am not surprised by this at all. For some reason that I don’t know, the top teams don’t seem interested in giving the Hulk a seat. If it is going to happen it needs to happen now. I just hope Williams don’t go for Nasr. I don’t think him and Massa is a very exciting line-up for what is a good car. Well this year anyway. I would rather they went for Hulkenberg or maybe one of the McLaren drivers or even Perez. I think Grosjean will stay with Lotus/Renault.

        1. By McLaren drivers I meant the young pair who are not driving this year. I would love to see Button go back there but I think that’s just wishful thinking.

    8. Fantastic COTD! Although i would argue a traditional track like Hockenheim is just as boring now, but given its not as boring as a modern track (Abu Dhabi). Unless they went to the old Hockenheim, then im not bothered with a German GP and looks like the locals aren’t either.

    9. I actually did a bit of an investigation about this a while ago. This is an outline of my findings. Apart from remodeling of old circuits (Austria, Hockenheim, Mexico), all of Tilke’s own designed/constructed circuits since 1999 (Malaysia, Bahrain, China, Turkey, Singapore, Valencia, Abu Dhabi, Korea, India, USA, Russia) are between 5.07km and 5.85km in length and most have a lap time of around 100s +/- 4s. The three circuits to have largely different lap times are Turkey, India and Singapore. The first two have significantly faster laps and Singapore has a slower lap time. Turkey and India are no longer on the calendar.

      It’s not only the excessive runoffs that make circuits boring, it’s the fact that the circuits have the same characteristics repeated over and over again. For example, here are certain criteria for circuit and notice how the Tilke circuits (in bold) tend to cluster together:

      Lap Length (shortest first):

      Monaco, Brazil, Austria, Canada, Hungary, Spain, Singapore,
      Australia, Bahrain, China, USA, Malaysia, Abu Dhabi,, Italy, Japan, Russia, Great Britain, Belgium

      Lap Time* (quickest first):

      Austria, Brazil, Canada, Monaco, Hungary, Italy, Spain, Australia, Great Britain, Japan, Bahrain, China, Malaysia, USA, Russia, Abu Dhabi, Singapore, Belgium

      Average Speed (highest first)*:

      Monza, Belgium, Great Britain, Japan, Austria, Australia, Brazil, Russia, Canada, China, Bahrain, Malaysia, USA, Abu Dhabi, Spain, Hungary, Singapore, Monaco

      All of the outliers are the old classic circuits and the new Tilkedromes fit almost perfectly in a mid-length, mid-to-low speed template. We need to get rid of the homogeneity of new circuits.

      (*using fastest race lap from 2011-2015)

      1. He’s got a base_circuit_layout.doc that he keeps copying over and over.

      2. It’s a bit unfair to blame just Tilke for these similarities, however– The FIA and FOM also have input into the new track designs– Remember a race has to be around 300km, and completed in under 2 hours.

        At an average speed of around 120mph means a 300km race will be completed in roughly 90 minutes, barring safety cars and other delays.

      3. @kodongo Very very impressive findings!

    10. @CotD: Yes, an onboard of a single car around the Nordschleife can be more entertaining than a title-deciding Abu-Dhabi race. But: there is no way back. We can´t have a series with 2 deaths per season on average in todays society, and we can´t have cars travelling at F1-speeds at tracks resembling country roads. Not to mention that to have speeds that are in the same relative position to road cars on the lesser side or the technological optimum of what would be doable without technical-regulations on the bigger side as it was in the 60ies – 80ies, F1 would need to be significantly faster, which in turn would make it even less safe.
      So, the days of single cars on road courses being exciting are just over. They aren´t in any other todays motorsport-series either, they are gone. So if we want F1 to persist, we need to live with that change and see what we can make out of it. And to me, closely fought battles are a good thing in modern F1, and the 2010 to 2013 seasons were highly entertaining, albeit of course different from what originally brought me to F1 back in the day.

      1. @crammond While we can’t have circuits such as Nordschleife, there is nothing wrong with circuits like Spa, Estoril (which is grade 1 now), and Brazil, which are all exciting classics.

        In the circuit designing regulations there are so many restrictions on what can be done. A circuit such as Spa would not be allowed now because of corners such as the Eau Rouge complex, which is ridiculous as that circuit still passes regulations anyway based on historic value, but I fail to see what makes that corner more dangerous if built new than the current one.

        1. @strontium Estoril is about as exciting as Barcelona, Interlagos features probably the most dangerous place in current F1 (main straight) and I´d totally understand if that was removed from the calendar for safety reasons. That leaves us with Spa, Suzuka, Monaco… and even though those are great tracks, watching cars around there on their own ain´t as exciting as it was 25 years ago. There´s several reasons, be it more balanced cars, smoother engine characteristics, the ability to predict any kind of issue developing in the car, added tarmac here and there, Eau Rouge has been straightened a bit, 130R too… The cars won´t ever be twitchy power-beasts again (as that is not the fastest way), and corners that are on the brink of full throttle will never be without margin for error again (errors being less likely anyway with more predictable cars).

    11. I hope I’m not repeating anything already said as I haven’t read all the comments, but it’s not just that a lot of the new tracks are boring. Which they are, in my opinion. It’s that so many of them are so much alike. The problem with such similarity is that if a car is dominant on one track, it is dominant on half the season because the characteristics of so many of the circuits favor particular design solutions.

      The Merc of the past two years, and certain other cars, have been so dominant at times that they exceed this and excel everywhere. But just as different conditions can make for closer races or different outcomes — rain, cooler, hotter, greener track surfaces — different track characteristics can make for better races too.

      And while I don’t really want boring track type A followed by boring track type B, and C just to suit different car designs, it would be many times more interesting than track A followed by track A, track A, older track with some character, track A, track A… So if you can’t design some interesting tracks, at least make them different.

    12. Looking at the picture of Austria 1982, it’s a shame they didn’t at least leave Jochen Rindt kurve as it was and add in the run-off (or now in modern times, a tec-pro barrier).

    13. Happy birthday….@bradley13? Is it you that @keithcollantine said happy birthday to, or another user with a similar name?

    14. All this crying about tracks today versus tracks of yesteryear…

      GET OVER IT. A band I like once said “if our future’s a destination and our history’s a ghost, then what happens right now is what matters the most”. Nothing is changing so stop wishing for something that will never happen and deal with the current.

      1. i agree considering the heading was about Down Effects!

      2. @beejis60 We don’t have to ‘get over it’ if we don’t want to. We can make noise and somewhere down the line somebody might hear it. We have nothing to lose by trying and we wouldn’t know what could happen if we didn’t.

        I think we, as a fan body, are being listened to more than we realise. Formula One is moving slowly in a slightly more positive direction. It might not be obvious, and it could take years, but we wouldn’t go anywhere if we didn’t share our views.

      3. Simon (@weeniebeenie)
        17th July 2015, 14:34

        ‘Just Deal with it’ has never been a valid response to criticism. It’s a cop out.

    15. Button said:
      “If you’re going to work with downforce it should come from the floor rather than the wings, because you can race closer and fight, and you don’t have as much dirty air from the wings for the car following.”

      someone finally hit the nail on the head.
      shame the tread has turned into a Track this track that,
      would have loved to know what people thought about being able to pass one another, considering this is why everyone seams to be moaning about F1.

      1. Completely agree. It was a rule regulation I was hoping they would introduce in 2014 or 2015.. and I’m still not understanding the exact reason why it’s not being talked about in the 2017 rule shakedown.

        I don’t know if there were safety concerns regarding ground effect aero, and that’s why it was banned, or what the exact reasons were.

        Following a car closely without getting in the dirty air or destroying tyres has been the recent holy grail of f1. If there is a rule shakedown, this should be among the top priority list of experiments to improve the quality of racing

        1. IIRC, ground effect was banned because a slight bump can mess up with it a lot and would launch the car in air instead (see Webber flip in LeMans for how ground effect goes wrong). So it was banned for safety reason. But I’m support its return if we can minimize the risk now though.

          1. are we talking the about the same ground effects?
            one being skirted body work,
            two being redesigned floor/chassis with slots,

            F1 have said they are looking into reintroducing it next year.

            1. The safety consideration is still the same. A bump may change or negate the downforce and that could be dangerous. Of course slotted floor is less risky than skirted car and that’s what I mean by minimizing the risk.

          2. Webber’s flip had nothing to do with ground effects. His car actually had a perfectly flat underside, for low drag, and on that particular curve/hill, air could get under the car and separate the car from the ground. You can see the underside of the car in some of the videos from where one of the cars landed upside down.

            Le Mans has since re-profiled that particular section so that the drop isn’t as steep to prevent a recurrence.

            IndyCar is using controlled ground effect on their cars– but even so, the airborne incidents at the 500 this year were from the new aero packages, not the ground effect of the floor.

            Not saying ground effect can’t go hideously wrong– but at this point we should have enough understanding of it to be able to grant downforce to the car without turning the car into a rocket sled on rails.

            Personally, I want to see the “fan car” come back. Now, THAT was fanboost done the right way!! (Look up “Chaparral 2J”).

          3. @sonicslv Do we have any bumps left? They are practically banned…

            1. @fastiesty Not in race. But I’m referring to daily electric car use because the battery technology is same and FE goal was to accelerate development on electric car technologies anyway.

            2. @fastiesty Wait sorry, disregard reply above, it’s for the wrong thread. But by bumps I mean sudden change of elevations. This can be caused by several things like even resurfacing, high enough kerb, or touching another car. The risk proportional on how big the downforce created by the ground effect, and they can easily create lot more downforce than wings.

            3. @sonicslv And by sudden change of elevations I meant the distance from the floor of the car to whatever surface below it that should generate the ground effect. I have lot of poor choices of words today :(.

            4. @sonicslv Ah, no worries.. my comment was slightly in jest, in that kerbs and bumps are all flat now. The big worry would be car on car contact, but e.g. low noses they are trying to sort that out, so it can hopefully be designed out (unless they botch it up of course in making design rule changes).

        2. “To be honest, there was no such thing as cornering technique in the ground effect era. “Cornering” was a euphemism for rape practiced on the driver. . . When you came into a corner you had to hit the accelerator as hard as you possibly could, build up speed as quickly as possible and, when things became unstuck, bite the bullet and give it even more. In a ground effect car, reaching the limit was synonymous with spinning out.”

          — Niki Lauda —

          http://www.f1-grandprix.com/?page_id=1643

    16. Could not agree more with COTD.

      “What is the essential Grand Prix every fan should attend at least once in their lifetime?
      RM: The essential race is Macau – it’s the best as a driver.”

      Love that response, I can only imagine the look on the reporter’s face. :)

    17. ColdFly F1 (@)
      17th July 2015, 10:07

      All the things right with F1:
      – engineering marvels;
      – best racing drivers in the world;
      – driving +300kmh with 1.6ltr engine
      – reducing fuel consumption overnight by a third
      – visit historic race tracks
      – driving upside down in a tunnel (such ‘facts’ make F1 special)
      – many fans totally fanatic about it with dedicated web sites.
      – changing 4 tyres in 2.3sec.

      1. well said Coldfly:
        all we need to add to that list is some decent passing battles,
        Reccardo/Alonso/Vettal wheel to wheel around corners, they could do it with double defusers and V8s why not now?
        the ground effects which are been clawed back are coming at the expense of none passing racing is that what is happening????

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