So what do you think of Red Bull now?
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First off, I am not trying to upset anybody with this. Having said that, let me begin.
As most of you may know, I have always loathed RBR. Never liked them and I sincerely never gave much importance to them, regardless if they won 4 in a row. I always complained about their way of running things, how they whined about tyres, and all sorts of other stuff. I never let anybody talk me out of my hatred for the team. Most just called me a sour grape, etc. I never liked how they would complain about everything when nothing was (rarely) going their way. I hated the fact that they managed to change the tyres in 2013, thus destroying the work Ferrari, Lotus and Force India had done. Everything was being handed to them in a silver platter. Sure the FIA tried to keep them grounded and giving the other teams a chance to catch up but, the fact is nobody ever did.
Horner says they never had the kind of domination that MERC is displaying and I´ve got an easy answer for that. NOW the POWER UNIT is what really matters now. Turbo engines have more power to be extracted from them than what the old v8´s could have. Forget aero (sure it still plays a big part), you better have a pretty darn good PU if you want to roll with the big boys. MERC did do their fair share of whining by threatening to pull out if the FIA didn´t change engine regs in to their favor. Sure, they knew they were miles ahead in that department and they were smart to do so. The difference in both scenarios is that MERC is a manufacturer… RBR is just a drinks company. Having also said that, they are only a PU customer. If what you have doesn´t cut it for you, then go fish!! Try to get whatever works best but, for the love of God, stop with the whining!! I for one, could care less if RBR leaves!!! I much rather see more manufacturers than a “drinks” company. At least in 2013 they waited until Barcelona to shift things into their favor, this year it only took them 1 race!!!
I also read Will Buxton´s blog entry and he hit the nail right on the head! He said what I have been saying all along and the funy thing is that now, a lot of people are opening up their ears! Ferrari even looks righteous and sportive for the way they have behaved! And that speaks volumes! If the going get´s tough, the tough get going! They toughed it out and ironed all the wrinkles in their package and now they look much better (I just feel terrible for ALO, he could really have done a lot more with this car)!
I guess that my main issue is the threats coming from them… who the hell do they think they are to be threatening the FIA like that??? Sure they won 4 in a row but heck… Williams, Lotus, McLaren and even Ferrari have won more constructors championships than that and they don´t threaten to leave if things don´t go their way! They behave like “men” and hang tough! So all I am really trying to say is, if they threaten to leave… well, don´t let the door hit your @ss on the way out! Not everybody is going to bend over backwards for you every time things don´t go your way! Like Buxton said: leave the racing to the racers and leave the bile to the drinks companies!Over to you and your feelings about the subject.
Never been much of a Red Bull fan either. I never liked how they used all grey areas of the rules to their advantage, while giving other teams a hard time for doing exactly the same thing. I also don’t understand what their marketing side is trying to achieve: Red Bull is supposed to be young, fresh and full of life, but their F1 team has always had such a cold vibe to it.
Their latest developments should be taken with a pinch of salt. Compare it to negotiating at the market: something is originally 50 Pounds/Euros/whatever, but you want to buy it for 40. So what do you do, offer 40? No, you offer 30. I think that’s what Horner’s doing here, saying some extreme stuff, but eventually settling for something less extreme.
However, I think this has given them such a backlash, they really need to start paying attention to their image. If Red Bull drops down the order even further, I think HQ will be very quick to pull the plug and withdraw from F1 and the junior categories.
I don’t like Red Bull as a team I respect them for buying the struggling Jaguar team and turning it around to win 4 consecutive driver/ constructor titles, but don’t like the way that they seem to “fast track” drivers who they support in the lower formulas into positions were they are not ready and as a result struggle to make an impact so affectively that’s their career over.
However one aspect I think that has been over looked in the post Melbourne analysis is that Mercedes have used the most engine tokens so the 2015 engine is more or less about as developed as its going to be, so later on in the season when Ferrari/ Renault/ Honda use the rest of their engine tokens it will close the gap. As well as is it possible that Renault told Red Bull to turn down their engine during the race to a more conservative setting to save it for later on in the season particularly since they had already suffered engine/ gearbox reliability issues in practice/ on the formation lap. This way they could get a better chance of a reasonable amount of points (since only 15 cars started the race and 11 finished it) which could prove very useful later on in the season.
I liked some aspects of Red Bull, back when they were a newly winning team, with a young, likeable Vettel, enjoying fresh victories, having many many parties, and being quite humble about their success.
I like Newey, who is clearly an aerodynamic genius. I like their drivers, and I used to like their positive presence in F1, even last year.
But now they (the team on a whole) are just arrogant, stuck-up and whine about everything. Horner says messed up things, and I appreciate his argument that the FIA tried to stop them, but it’s no good throwing the cans out of the pram. Helmut Marko is an absolute… person who has treated drivers unfairly yet they couldn’t care less. They refuse to collaborate with Renault to work things out, yet they publicly slam them heavily. They clearly got too complacent, and I think that if they want to go, be happy, because ultimately this a marketing thing, and they are a drinks company.
Milk is good for you.
Well, I tend to disagree with the things you liked about RBR… Vettel to me, has always come across as an arrogant 2-faced person. The real Vettel is what you saw after the multi 21 episode. True, he is a racer but sometimes you have to abide by the team´s rule that give you the wins! RBR has never been humble at all. They have practically always made a spetacle of F1. The kind of spectacle that although sometimes it can be fun, it tends to border the vulgar line. But hey, enough bashing on them for those things, sincerely, I never caved in and jumped on the “young peppy winner bandwagon”. To me it was always clear that they were in it for the publicity and now that they are getting their @sses royaly handed to them, now they moan… Did anybody say anything about “poor” Alonso being lapped in HIS hometown GP in 2011??? Although he made the best ever start, it was not enough. He got lapped and was an utter embarrasment and did anybody say anything? Did Ferrari moan like RBR is doing now?? Or how about the four years that it took MERC to finally achieve their goal? The way they would always get pole but drop back like an anvil in the ocean?? Did they moan?? Oh wait, actually they did… they moaned about a PU change if not they would leave. But all in all, the PU change is actually good, I miss the noise but, that is really what F1 is about… Who can produce the best engines, etc. That is good in my view. I totally dread though how the AERO aspect used to be king.
Do I personally like MERCS dominance? Well yes and no. Yes because it makes F1 go it´s roots when the PU and the drivers really mattered. No because it is boring from the “show” point of view. It would be much much better if the races would be tighter. That would make it perfect! The truth is that only 1 race has gone by. The others still have their tokens so I predict that the season will get better inevitably so that is the main reason why I absolutely despise RBR´s moaning… They should seriously MAN UP!!Oh and by the way… Who does Mateschitz think he is??? He is far fom being even 1/4th the legend ENZO FERRARI was. When Enzo spoke…. Bernie Listened! Enzo was one of the few person´s Bernie respected and that speaks volumes! But Mateschitz?? Really??? A soaps Marketter??? A guy that discovered a drink in one of his Business trip?? That he later turned it into RB?? Oh wow! Please… if anything he is just a smart marketter but nothing more. He has no passion for racing, his only interest is ruling any “extreme” sport that can be profitable for his drinks company. That is why I could care less if he pulls out. That would only prove that he was in it for the exposure and nothing more. Heartless racing.
Anyways, it´s good to see that more and more people are openning their eyes to this! It´s just a shame that if they pull out, Ricciardo´s, Kvyat´s, Sainz´ and Verstappen´s future could be at stake. But hey, they don´t seem to care.
Personally I’m very supportive of Red Bull – as much as I am of any team. I don’t really understand this mentality of disliking a team. I like all of the teams for various reasons and believe the variety of approaches is what keeps the sport diverse and interesting. I also can’t help but feel that Red Bull deserve a lot more credit than they get, when you consider everything they have done for the sport. They run two teams, one of which has won four championships, and the other has introduced some of the best drivers on the grid, in contrast to the slew of mediocre pay drivers which make up most of the rest of the grid. They saved the old Jaguar team, kept Renault in the sport as an engine supplier, and they have revived the Austrian GP, which turned out to be one of the best races of last season both in terms of the action on the track and the atmosphere in the grandstands. And they shouldn’t be seen in isolation either – Red Bull have a presence in motorsport at virtually all levels, sponsoring drivers and teams and even creating their own motorsports events and venues. Truly no other company has ever done so much to promote and maintain motorsport than Red Bull. While their brand of energy drinks I find, frankly, disgusting, their blue cars and big logos are a reminder that they are some of the biggest motorsports enthusiasts going.
Of course, it’s all a marketing exercise. But then for whom is that not the case? Certainly not Mercedes – they may be selling cars rather than energy drinks, but the concept is still the same. It is still an exercise in brand building and reinforcement, one which could just as easily have the plug pulled as soon as the board of directors feel that it’s no longer delivering value. The only true contructors associated with car companies who have a clear commitment to staying come rain or shine are Mclaren and Ferrari, and even then there would be certain factors which could push either out of the sport.
Do I hate the whining? Of course. I hate it from all quarters. I hate hearing it from teams, trying to use the media as a platform to press for change in the sport for their own advantage. I hated it when Ferrari did it, I hated it when Mercedes did it, and I hate it now that Red Bull are doing it. It hurts everything about the sport to see its top competitors whine and wail about how bad things are. I hate hearing the circuit owners whine about hosting fees, when collectively thye could get together and demand a better deal. I hate hearing it especially from FOM and Bernie Ecclestone – I hate hearing about how they don’t like how the engines sound, when they should be talking excitedly about how incredibly advanced and exciting thye are. F1 is left looking like a shambles of a sport by everyone concerned. But especially, the thing I hate most of all, is hearing people who call themselves fans whining about one person or team doing something which EVERY SINGLE TEAM does. I hate hearing people accusing a team of cheating, when all they’ve done is creatively use the rulebook to find an advantage. They seem to turn a blind eye when it’s their ‘favourite’ team doing the same thing. People whine about Red Bull using loopholes, and yet they seem completely blind to the fact that Mercedes are now using any number of their own loopholes to find their performance.
Why it all annoys me is this – I have always seen F1 in sort of holistic terms. I don’t single out particular teams or drivers as my favourites. The whole idea of it seems anathema to my idea of what motorsport is about. It’s a mentality that I think has its place in field sports, but not at the race track. I love F1, it’s the most technically exciting, fastest motorsport on earth. I want the whole of F1 to be successful and to be prosperous; every team from the richest to the poorest. I want to see top quality racing venue across the world, almost turning people away at the gates because the venues are all full to capacity with spectators. I want everyone to know all about what F1 is and why it’s so special. But these things don’t happen. They don’t happen because people are selfish and narrow minded. They focus only on their own limited and blinkered idea of what is good and what is bad. So they whinge and whine and moan, not about the big important things, but about stupid things like a team for which they have an irrational dislike coming across as ‘smug’. I come on sites like this and I despair because it seems that the majority of people are so wrapped up in their own little bubble, so obsessed with trying to turn everything into a narrative of their favourites versus the ‘bad guys’ that they lose sight of the real problems. Like races being bankrolled by corrupt nations, held in front of empty grandstands in the bum end of nowhere. Like teams disappearing off the grid because the commercial rights holder has made it impossible for them to secure sponsorship. Like teams capitulating and being complicit in an illegal cartel which protects their interests against the long term sustainability of the sport. And especially how the spectre of Ecclestone hangs above the sport like Emperor Palpatine, gleefully rubbing his hands together while hundreds of people lose their jobs so that his inconceivably large pile of ill-gotten gains can get yet fatter by the day, as the teams he to mercilessly strangles then pat him on the back for what a great job he does.
So no, ultimately, while I don’t like hearing RBR whining now, it’s not them that I hate but the culture of whining in general. Because ultimately it never actually fixes anything. At best, even if it is successful all that happens is that the balance of power is shifted back in favour of the whiner, causing yet another to start whinging in their place. Nothing important is ever resolved by it, and it never will be. Not until people stop whining, and start promoting instead. Stop being negative and understand the effect that has on the sport upon which they depend. And then, in the end, all agree to sit down and have proper, constructive talks which put the future health of the sport at the heart of what they do, rather than trying to balance a hundred or more conflicting self interests.
But I fear, the days of whining will outlive the sport of F1.
@mazdachris
You do raise some good points and some I agree with. like for example:the variety of approaches is what keeps the sport diverse and interesting.
I totally agree with this but I just don´t like “newcomers” that whine too much.
they have revived the Austrian GP, which turned out to be one of the best races of last season both in terms of the action on the track and the atmosphere in the grandstands.
This perhaps is the only good thing about them being in the sport although I can´t help but feel it was just a boost to the ego of Mateschitz. He just had to make a point that it was their track, their home GP… If not, why rename it the Red BUll Ring??
races being bankrolled by corrupt nations, held in front of empty grandstands in the bum end of nowhere. Like teams disappearing off the grid because the commercial rights holder has made it impossible for them to secure sponsorship. Like teams capitulating and being complicit in an illegal cartel which protects their interests against the long term sustainability of the sport. And especially how the spectre of Ecclestone hangs above the sport like Emperor Palpatine, gleefully rubbing his hands together while hundreds of people lose their jobs so that his inconceivably large pile of ill-gotten gains can get yet fatter by the day, as the teams he to mercilessly strangles then pat him on the back for what a great job he does.
Hear Hear!! I couldn´t have said it better myself!
But I fear, the days of whining will outlive the sport of F1.
My thoughts exactly!!
You make a whole lot of assumptions out of thin air but this one really striked me.
He has no passion for racing, his only interest is ruling any “extreme” sport that can be profitable for his drinks company.
Who are you to say that? There have been plenty of people mentioning Mateshitz is a motorsport enthousiast.
Anyways, it´s good to see that more and more people are openning their eyes to this!
Don’t forget this is a forum and not a way to spread anti-RB propaganda…
But all in all, the PU change is actually good, I miss the noise but, that is really what F1 is about… Who can produce the best engines, etc. That is good in my view. I totally dread though how the AERO aspect used to be king.
Do I personally like MERCS dominance? Well yes and no. Yes because it makes F1 go it´s roots when the PU and the drivers really mattered.One of those things I’ll never understand. I love the technology of F1 whether it is aero or engine. AND I love racing, close racing and whether two cars can be side by side because of engine or aero doesn’t matter. I also don’t really agree that F1 is about who creates the best engine, if that were correct we just did drag races. Why else do all these cars have the huge wings on their cars. The answer is simple, to corner fast, go around a track, that is F1.
The truth is that only 1 race has gone by. The others still have their tokens so I predict that the season will get better inevitably so that is the main reason why I absolutely despise RBR´s moaning… They should seriously MAN UP!!
Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t remember you making an a fuss when Ferrari or Mercedes said they would pull out. Because in fact I believe Mercedes their threat was far more real had the engine changes not come.
In the end I hate blind hate. I agree you cannot like everything but I loathe people who hate one for doing something whilst they think it’s fine another one does it.
Because in fact I believe Mercedes their threat was far more real had the engine changes not come.
That was far more acceptable- they didn’t make the threat because they were sore losers. They had the best engine at the time anyway and were achieving pretty decent results as a supplier if not a works team. But continuing with that engine made no sense to them as a car manufacturer. I do think that’s a shame and wish the manufacturers had a deeper passion for racing beyond marketing, but that’s the way it is, as demonstrated by the 2008 mass-exodus. Merc are happy to be in F1 while it’s relevant for them, Red Bull are happy to be in F1 while they’re winning. I see one as far worse than the other.
They should seriously MAN UP!!
What does that suppose to mean, I hope you not saying that you seriously think RBR aren’t developing anything simply because they’re complaining, right
He has no passion for racing, his only interest is ruling any “extreme” sport that can be profitable for his drinks company
But the moaning came from Horner, a former F3000 racer who started a team that’s preety successful in F3000 and GP2 (which was the reason he got to be principal of an F1 team) and a guy who lost an eye motor racing behind Brazil’s (then-to-be) first F1 champion!
That, and of course what @xtwl said about Dieter.
RBR is just a drinks company. Having also said that, they are only a PU customer. If what you have doesn´t cut it for you, then go fish!
It’s sponsored by a drinks company. But read my remarks above regarding Horner and Marko. They’re not just “marketing” people or anything like that and the team as a racing team are more than a drinks company. That they moan when things don’t go their way is something that also comes from other teams like Team Maranello (the only reason they look a tad saintly right now is because they’ve got a decent car – the 2nd in a heck of a long time as OpenBSD’s page sort of says!) and has, in my opinion, little to do with their owners.
And I’m pretty sure it’s been said that RBR are Renault’s factory team ever since team Enstone was dropped by Renault.Horner says they never had the kind of domination that MERC is displaying and I´ve got an easy answer for that. NOW the POWER UNIT is what really matters now. Turbo engines have more power to be extracted from them than what the old v8´s could have. Forget aero (sure it still plays a big part), you better have a pretty darn good PU if you want to roll with the big boys.
He knows it’s an engine problem. Otherwise nothing would’ve led to that Renault guy popping up in the round-up.
MERC did do their fair share of whining by threatening to pull out if the FIA didn´t change engine regs in to their favor. Sure, they knew they were miles ahead in that department and they were smart to do so.
Wait, what? You’re OK with that?
A bit off-topic in terms of the response I’m going to give:
I guess that my main issue is the threats coming from them… who the hell do they think they are to be threatening the FIA like that??? Sure they won 4 in a row but heck… Williams, Lotus, McLaren and even Ferrari
Has team Enstone really won more championships than RBR? They only won 4WDC’s so I doubt they have WCC’s too many more than that.
A bit more on-topic: what’s wrong with RBR threatening to leave that’s so wrong that it’s so much more unacceptable than if McLaren or ferrari or even team Enstone did? Would it be right to say “Who are these self-proclaimed F1 fanatics that they dare to go to F1F and claim to be leaving F1?”
And frankly what’s so bad about the domination of aero? Why aren’t there complaints about the domination of strategies?
I for one, could care less if RBR leaves!!!
Another off-topic response from me but the lack of a response to this shows that the site seems to lack the so-called grammar “Nazi”s (why are they called Nazi? They’re annoying but still) – a positive note at the end of my reply.
I have a lot of sympathy for what @karter22 says. The whining (which continues to the China weekend) is not in spirit with the ethics of sport – that you win or lose, and take both with equal grace and good attitude. Red Bull came in with a refreshing image and worked hard to be a success. However, that image has been left in tatters – the hard-line attitudes of Dieter M and Franz Tost, the way they hire very young drivers only to throw them away in their early 20s, their power in official matters, and now their inability to lose well.
Horner has already regretted talking about equalising Merc’s advantage, but the continuing threat to withdraw is undoing all their good work. Those people mentioned need to close their big mouths and concentrate on the racing. Take a leaf out of Manor’s book!
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