Max Verstappen, Red Bull, Hungaroring, 2020

“Something is misbehaving aerodynamically” on Red Bull’s car

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In the round-up: Red Bull team principal Christian Horner says the team obtained useful data from the Hungarian Grand Prix which should help them address their suspected aerodynamic problem.

What they say

Horner said Red Bull is working to understand why they were surprisingly far from the pace in qualifying at the Hungaroring:

I think we’ve got something misbehaving aerodynamically. It’s obviously a matter of understanding that and addressing that. In certain conditions the car is behaving as expected.

I think we’ve actually got some very good data from this weekend so obviously the team will be working hard to understand it and to resolve it quickly as we can.

Quotes: Dieter Rencken

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Comment of the day

Andrew suspects F1 cars could prove too fast to race well at Mugello:

It will be an interesting event but probably not so much a great race. It’s an amazing track with flow even in Forza. But great flow in the track makes for good GT or even prototype racing, but it’s terrible for F1 if you want cars passing all the time. The wash will make some of the long corners impossible to follow and get that great draft, or even DRS, because you’ll have to take a worse line or drop back.

That said, qualifying should be crazy to watch and possibly better than the race.
Andrew

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  • 57 comments on ““Something is misbehaving aerodynamically” on Red Bull’s car”

    1. Hopefully Red Bull will get on top of their issue so we can have at least 1 team challenging Mercedes.

      Racing Point are doing OK but will never be a true threat with a 2019 car against a 2020 one unless there’s an issue with the new ones design as seems to be the case with the RBR and the Ferrari.

      Even more import for RBR so they can properly assess Alex Albon – Max is finding it a difficult beast so no surprise that Alex is struggling a bit.

    2. There is nothing wrong with the Redbull car…..their driver line up is weak unaccomplished and inexperience….Albon is 3rd rate in terms of F1 calibre driver and everyone is treating Max like he is the epitomy of perfection in F1 without acctually achieving or accomplishing any yet……Max is overdriving the car and not managing tires properly ,the otherside of the garrage is incappable of exposing Max fualts even if its for one corner.so everything Max does is perfect.its Merc engine its the aero…..
      Just look at Mercedese .Lewis does a lap and Bottas goes half a tenth up..Lewis goes and look at where he is down and go a tenth up and then Bottas improves and the team moves forwad…..Max does lap and Albon is a second down,oh well Max has extracted 110 percent nothing to do here …Merce engine

      1. Not saying that there isn’t something in what you’re saying, but if ex-drivers look at the car on track and say it’s unstable and RB engineers say ‘we’ve got an aero problem’, I think we can accept that there genuinely is.
        True that Max isn’t being pushed or even ‘kept honest’ (TM Martin Brundle) by his teammate But I honestly think that the idea of Max in a Merc would give Lewis nightmares, certainly in qualifiying.

        1. The narrative from the ex driver pundits was that Max was going to be Lewis closest competiditor,even though Lewis is a 6 times world champion and the 2nd most successfull driver in history the sport who has seen off 3 world champ,but Max is a young european with no achievements and accomplishment in F1 so obviosly they equal..

          So when rubber meet the road and the 6 times world champ leaves Max in the dust its obviously the Mercedes engine and aero not working, that fits their narrative.why you guys listening to propaganda Honner any way,before he was saying theyve never been more prepared and their engine on par……now they getting trounced its all excuses.

          Redbull will never beat Mercedese because they lack repect for THE 6 times world champion,and with all Lewis accomplishments their is still the silent narrative from the establishment that he is just lucky mentally fragile and easily rattled so Max can just frighten him off…..Button so called smooth driver,Rosberg thinking man Alonso most complete ,Vettel in 2017 4 times world champ vs 4 times world champ all got schooled by Lewis …..yea but Max will expose lewis…hmmm

          1. OK. Got you clocked now.

      2. Meanwhile…..all experts agree Max is actually an expert on saving tyres, crashing less than Lewis and outqualifying all of his previous team mates Ricciardo, Gasly and Albon with bigger margin than Lewis does…..

        I do think it is the car, I even know for sure…

        1. I guess that the pre-formation lap can be defined as lap -1; but that doesn’t mean that the crash can be subtracted from his total.

          1. @coldfly Lol,I liked that one :)

          2. He went off the track twice before ultimately ending in barrier on 2nd excursion.

        2. “Horner said Red Bull is working to understand why they were surprisingly far from the pace”

          I’ve been hearing him drop this line for 6 straight years now…

          1. 6 years? That’s a fib. There was never any doubt when they had Renault PUs.

            1. When the engine doesn’t allow you to push the chassis to the limit than the problem is your engine and not your chassis.

            2. The thing is, that is also what everyone said about McLaren in the past, only for it to become apparent that the chassis was more flawed than they first claimed it was. I would be careful of blaming only Renault – there were definitely times when the chassis was considered to be worse than Red Bull admitted to.

        3. When did Lewis crash last time? Max crashed last week.

          In any case, that car visually has aero instability. Imagine how bad it must be, if we laymen see it with our eyes.

        4. Matn, Well clearly Verstaoppen wasn’t so great at managing his tyres in races like Hungary 2019 and Styria 2020. So what are these “expert” opinons of his supposed tyre managing skills based on when we have clear evidence of him running out of tyres well before the end of the race?

          I don’t think Verstappen is as poor as john suggests, but he makes some very good points about the unwarranted hype around Verstappen and the lack of benchmarking since Ricciardo was pushed out.

          If anything I would add, why is it that Red Bull cannot find the right direction for developing their car since 2016. At what level is the driver responsible?

          1. 2015 not 2016

            1. No 2016. They actually improved a lot for 2016. Ricciardo finished P3 in the championship and Red Bull was P2 in the constructors.

        5. … fewer crashes than Hamilton…. Oh! Hi Martin!

          Didn’t know you posted over here.

      3. I missed your point; probably due to overuse, and then so in weird locations.

    3. Interesting article about the Brazilian race. It does sound like a decision was made based on the covid situation in Brazil as a whole rather than Sao Paulo specifically. I have some sympathy for both sides in this argument but I think the FIA does need to be cautious, especially with the potential for the virus to spread within a country. Also the race is months off and no one can predict the future.

      1. It does sound like a decision was made based on the covid situation in Brazil as a whole rather than Sao Paulo specifically.

        It’s the opposite, @frood19.
        Rohonyi, is complaining that FOM “talk about the virus infection rate in Brazil, which is a bit like comparing California to Florida in a country like Brazil, which is of continental dimensions.”.
        He even claims that if looking at “the figures of Sao Paulo, even Brazil, in a proportional base, compared to England, it’s much better.”.
        Which surprised me and when I looked it up it’s totally wrong: Sao Paulo has 4501 new daily cases, whereas the UK 767 (most of this in England). And population wise Sao Paulo state is only a fraction of UK/England.
        Thus Rohonyi thinks that higher new daily cases is ‘much better’; seems like they’re still racing to get to herd immunity levels :P

        1. :D Yeah “Much better”, when city 1/4th the size of UK, has 5-6x the infections per day, with questionable testing coverage.

          FOM are not virologists, or experts at county level infection rates. But even a casual observer can spot, that Brazil has alarming rates of Covid infections per day, and have rather poor countermeasures.

        2. @coldfly fair enough, I had not looked into the details! The decision to cancel makes even more sense now.

      2. I think the decision was made after they considered the accuracy of past statements by the promoter in regards to the health and safety of team personnel outside of the confines of the track.

    4. It was 100% the right decision by F1. You’d have to be a madman for voluntarily going there under the current circumstances created by COVID-19. Brazil (like the US) simply isn’t safe enough for an international event the size of an F1 GP this year. I wouldn’t be sad if it weren’t to be part of next year’s season either.
      While, I quite like to drive the track, and it has generally produced good or at least decent racing, I still wouldn’t be sad if it weren’t to be part of even next year’s season because apart from the on-track stuff, I’ve never really had a soft spot for the place itself mainly due to its issues with safety in general even before COVID-19 came in, so I wouldn’t mind if it got replaced by some other (any) track in future, nor if there weren’t to be any F1-racing in this specific country for the time being.

      1. I agree. I guess I do have a bit of sympathy for the promoter after having spent a lot of money upgrading the sanitary and such like facilities, but Liberty Media would be taking a huge risk going there. In 2017 Mercedes team members were robbed at gun point outside the race track. The Australian GP was cancelled when Australia had something like 4 or 5 cases per million people, Brazil currently has about 3300 active cases per million people. It just seems to me those are two really good reasons to avoid going there (besides the fact F1 was paying to race there)!

    5. Oh, sore Marko…
      you didn’t notice that there have been quite big rule changes to try and slow down Mercedes…

      1. @dallein I know right. In fact FIA did nothing to stop Red Bull.

        In fact they kept on helping them by letting Renault improve their engine further and further. Even though it was clear to everyone that, even though it was a few bhp lower on power, it made more than up for that in fuel economy and driveability.

        Also, they let them run their clearly visibly flexing front wing for all those years. When Ferrari showed some small flex on a bargeboard FIA instantly added new tests. With other teams as well. Every time some deflection was visible on camera they would stamp it out. Not with Red Bull. FIA lamely shifted the tests around a little without actually adding a test that would stop it from happening.

        Red Bull even were so blatant about the whole thing that they actually tested with a “spider” on their front wing to measure the deflection.

        At some point FIA came out and stated that flexible front wings would be allowed and then everybody copied the design.

        Plus indeed the “recent” regulation overhaul to make F1 more aero dependent and less engine dependent. Clearly designed to hinder Mercedes (and Ferrari) and aid Red Bull. Even though Red Bull completely messed up their design and ended up even further back than before. It wasn’t from lack of trying from the FIA.

      2. @dallein – It’s called the hybrid era for a reason. That is the foundation of the merc advantage and nothing has been done to address that. Not to mention Pirelli are in Merc’s back pocket and every tyre change has benefited Merc.

        1. @asherway The engine regulation change was pushed by Renault (on behalf of Red Bull who were lobbying like crazy for this too). Ferrari and Mercedes were against! So it’s on Reanult that they failed to

          Mercedes has had tyres issues from 2014 till 2018. While other teams had much less issues. Only for 2019 Mercedes decided that they should address these issues and they figured out what changes were naded and made these changes. Since then their tyres issues are gone. That has been one season and a few races now.

          In between we had an aero regulation change which was purposefully designed to help Red Bull. It was supposed to make the cars less engine dependent. Rd Bull failed and Mercedes came out ahead again.

          The thing is that the losers try to roll the dice hoping that they will be lucky and come out on top. Reality is that the people who produced the best result before are actually more likely to produce the best result again when ytou “roll the dice”

          Blame it on the ineptness of Ferrari, Red Bull and their drivers that they keep failing to be competitive. There is no conspiracy.

          1. @f1osaurus – so it’s just a coincidence that the 2014 PU regs aligned perfectly with Merc’s existing PU developments? Ok, you can believe what you want but the results strongly suggest otherwise.
            Merc has a corporate partnership with Pirelli as shown by their secret test in 2013.
            Why would F1, in an attempt to slow Merc, focus changes around aero?? That makes zero sense. If you want to make the cars less engine dependent you would create regs that equalise the PU. That hasn’t happened.
            The situation we have now has been curated by Merc and allowed by F1. There is literally no way to catch up, Merc’s head-start can’t disappear and other teams can’t invent time beyond what Merc have to allow for more development.

            1. @asherway What existing PU developments?

              But yeah, it was Renault/Red Bull that wanted a new engine regulation. They got their wish under protest from Mercedes! and Ferrari. Why didn’t Mercedes push for this then?

              Then again, the engine was agreed to be a 6-inline engine. By all. Yet when they started designing the car, Newey complained that a straight six was a bad idea for F1 as the engine is a structural part of the car. So they changed again and went with a V6 instead.

              Yet again why wasn’t Mercedes pushing for a V6 from the start if that was what they had laying on the shelf?!?!?!

              At what point did Mercedes make any statement about which engine they had laying on the shelf?

              Mercedes had the best engine before the regulation change. Low and behold the people that made best engine before …. made the best engine again.

              The 2017 reg change was to make the cars less engine dependent. After the incessant complaining from Red Bull. Not sure what is so difficult to understand about this?

              The fact that you don’t even know this speaks volumes though.

              Pirelli was in a bind since the teams didn’t want to pay for a tyre test, but they needed their tyres tested. Mercedes saw an opportunity for some extra advantage and took it. Informed the FIA and all. But then afterwards, the FIA chickened out and pretended Mercedes should have know they had to invite everybody. Well whatever they got punished for it and missed a test. So they gained nothing from it overall and even lost a lot of money.

              The reason Mercedes is still ahead is because they are doing a better job at everything. It should be easier to catch up rather than to stay ahead. Especially after 6 years.

              Find a conspiracy why they are so bad at their job? Is it a coincidence that Ferrari is cheating instead of actually improving their engine? Is it a coincidence that Red Bull cannot come up with a working car design? Who’s poor feedback are they following that their car just doesn’t seem to improve? Is someone on the inside sabotaging their development? Figure it out man!

            2. @f1osaurus – were you at the PU reg meetings? Regardless of what the media and Merc would have you believe, I’m pretty sure there was champagne flowing at Merc after the 2014 regs were locked. Some people simply believe everything they read, others are able to think critically and independently to arrive at an opinion.
              “Not sure what is so difficult to understand about this?” – again, if F1 wants to slow Merc, why not change the very thing that is at the foundation of their advantage?? The fact that they changed aero supports my argument: they never wanted to slow Merc down at all.
              “The fact that you don’t even know this speaks volumes though” – I’m very aware of the version of events that you mention. But again, I choose to come to my own conclusions given the evidence. You’re free to just believe everything you read.
              Merc’s “punishment” for running a secret and illegal test was to have to sit out the following test. Wow, the term ‘slap on the wrist’ doesn’t even come close. They should have been thrown out of the sport for a year.
              If a runner is given a 10m head start, how do the others catch up? That runner never stops. This is an efficiency formula, there is no convergence of performance with such immature tech, and unless I’m wrong (once again!) I’m pretty sure they still put fuel in the car, so tonnes of room for development.
              From 2010 – 2013 Merc were kind of a joke. Funny how at the flick of a switch they became the best team to ever grace the pit lane…

            3. @asherway I don;t need to be present in these meetings to know that Mercedes was trying to keep it with V8 and that the engine formula changed from straight-6 to V6 by request from Red Bull

              These are FACTS.You are just spreading conspiracy lunacy.

          2. “Mercedes has had tyres issues from 2014 till 2018. While other teams had much less issues.”

            Looks like to most of us they clearly changed the tires to Merc’s benefit, multiple times, there can be no doubt about that.

            1. AWM They didn’t change the tyres. And again not for 2020.

              Seriously! Can this get any dumber?

              Before the 2018 season started, Mercedes already stated that they were going all out on imrpoving tyres handling. They changed the suspension all round. And they worked.

    6. You just can’t cancelled Brazil for force majeure when you still scheduling races in other places and admitted that the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic is fluid.

      1. @ruliemaulana Why not? Brazil is one of the worst hit countries by Covid-19 and Sao Paulo is one of the worst hit regions in Brazil

        1. @f1osaurus So are Italy & Britain.

          1. @ruliemaulana No they are not. Plus more importantly, it’s reasonably under control there now. Brazil is an utter disaster all over the country still.

      2. Yeah you can. Do you really think that the 10 teams want the expense of shipping all their stuff to Brazil for 1 race? Once the American & Mexico gp were cancelled it was pretty obvious that the Brazil gp would be as well.

    7. Horner is of course 100% right about Mosley and Ecclestone. Egomaniac Mosley simply detested anyone getting too powerful and threatening his own position, and Ecclestone just wanted the championship to go down to the last race for the bottom line. Who can f.i. forget the obvious championship-steering two race ban given to Schumacher and Benetton for not serving the stop-go penalty after overtaking on the formation lap in the 94 British GP.

      Look at how Renault’s mostly mechanical mass damper suddenly became a ‘moveable aerodynamic device’ in 05, while the same could be said for Mercedes’ DAS system but no one cares. It’s almost gone too much the other way now.

      1. @balue That ban Schumacher got for ignoring the black flag was clear Ferrari favoritism though

        1. @f1osaurus i’m confused. 4 race ban not dsq, for 2 different reasons that is why that was dodgy.

          1. @peartree Yes you sound confused. What 4 race ban? He received a 2 race ban for ignoring the black flag and he was disqualified from the race where he was black flagged (which is what a black flag means anyway). Plus he also got disqualified for running his car too low.

            The whole team should have been thrown out for cheating when they equipped Schumacher’s car with a hidden traction control menu. Then again for removing a safety feature from the refueling system almost burning the whole place down in the process. And then Schumacher himself for taking out a competitor on purpose.

            Schumacher and Briatore are really the most despicable cheats F1 ever saw.

            1. @f1osaurus I only remembered he got banned for a total of 4 events. I’m confused cause I don’t see what Ferrari has to do with it. Is it like Lewis dnfs late in his mclaren career, a conspiracy? like a team sabotaging the other?
              there was tc software on the other cars too. perfectly conceivable to leave code behind.
              That was a weak attack. in the end benetton was doing what all f1 teams do. they won fair and square, thankfully f1 failed in trying to stop an outsider from winning in f1.

            2. @peartree

              I’m confused cause I don’t see what Ferrari has to do with it

              So you didn’t know the penalties were applied and you don’t understand the Ferrari link. Sounds like you have no memoery really of what happened either way. And somehow it’s on me to explain?

              Why don’t you look back up a race report and figure out why Ferrari protested?’

              And yeah they left the “code behind”. Just so that it could be activated by a certain combination of peddle and button clicks.

              By the way, I have this lovely bridge that I would like to sell to you. Would you be interested? You sound like just the gentleman who would be in for such an amazing purchase.

      2. @balue I think you’ll find it was Marko making that claim about Mosley and BE, not Horner.

      3. Thta is a common opinion, but It actually seems to me F1 rather enjoys building legends, especially when they have a certain marketing/commercial appeal.

        Apart from the tire rules in 2005 and their reversion and the mass damper ban in 200

        They happily let Bridgestone and Ferrari build the Schumacher-legend.
        Their only attempt at slowing them down came with the 2005 tire rule changes, when the record books seemed to be sealed for eternity.
        Sure, there were gimmicks like the one-lap qualifying and the changed point system (a blessing for bulletproof cars), but they did not single out the best Ferrari nor did they hurt them in practice. In fact, in the only year where they had serious oppositon, the michelin teams were handicapped in the final four races.
        As sais, they indeed seemed to set up a clash between the precious legend and the to-be-built legend in 2006.
        In 2009, they allowed the double diffuser and the fairy tale of Brown.
        There were no upsets during the Red Bull heydays of Vettel. In fact, the temporary rule changes in silverstone 2011 that could have swayed the championship were not upheld.
        And in the hybrid era, no measures have singled out Mercedes, allowing Hamilton to forge his own brand and assault the record books.

        This is nothing but anecdotal evidence, but the legend-forming pattern seems to exist.
        If Verstappen, Norris or Russel get their hands on a competitive car after Hamilton, I would not be surprised to see them unopposed for years to come.

    8. “Horner said Red Bull is working to understand why they were surprisingly far from the pace”

      I’ve been hearing him drop this line for 6 straight years now… frankly it is unacceptable. The team needs an overhaul. And it has always been the car. Sure the Renault engine let some gap on the table, but it was to easily used as am excuse for the underperformance. I am no longer convinced of Newey.

      1. Not really mate.Post V8 n/a they just needed the Merc engine and at the moment they just need to sort the aero issues ;)

        1. That being said, Mercedes has an amazing chassis this year. With current Honda engine, they might be in contention some of the previous seasons, but this year for sure to late.

      2. Ben (@scuderia29)
        27th July 2020, 10:12

        I’d hardly say they need an overhaul because they can’t secure a Mercedes power unit, they’ve been consistently out performing the power units.

      3. Maybe we’ve got another screwy Newey car, one with an aero imbalance or other significant problem.

        There have been a few down the years, as he admits in his book (well worth a read). Mostly in the 90s (the Lazarus-like Leyton House in 1990, Williams FW16 😥 and a super-skinny McLaren that never raced) but there’s been a Red Bull or two as well. They’ve eventually fixed the problems before, but that’ll be a challenge in this mega-compressed season travelling around in bubbles.

    9. So Red Bull have now ‘distanced’ themselves from ‘Boss’. Well, that’s really quick considering the little scrote, while driving his Ferrari in Bangkok over 7 years ago, smashed into a cop and dragged him hundreds of metres to his death. So long ago that some of the charges (hit & run and speeding) have expired as he ran away to Singapore initially and refused to return as he had a cold. Since then he has been welcomed at several GPs presumably as a Red Bull guest – he certainly posed for pictures with the team.
      However, despite an Interpol red notice (arrest on sight) no-one managed to arrest him and he continues to swan around the world a free man.

      The decision to drop the rest of the charges is now being reviewed.

    10. As for the cotd. I am not worried about mugello being a bad circuit for f1 racing because all the corners are long and the dirty air effect will be magnified. We have the same issue in suzuka as well. The main straight is still long enough so there might be some button press position changes. But as a circuit mugello is fine. I’d say it is a great traditional circuit. An old school circuit. I’m expecting the drivers to really rave about the corners from 7 to 9. As an additional bonus the track has hard track limits like suzuka. Go wide, go off. I expect some vettel moments for sure…

      What I am worried about is track limits in algarve. It is almost as bad as paul ricard when it comes to having a parking slot masquerading as a racing circuit. Don’t get me wrong. I really like the track. It has a proper old school feel to it with lots of elevations and both technical and courageous corners and corner complexes. And quite a few blind corners. But it is also wide enough be its own country. There are quite a few corners where the cars will easily go really wide and gain time.

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