‘Kick Sauber’ and ‘RB’ announced as new names for Alfa Romeo and AlphaTauri

69 comments on “‘Kick Sauber’ and ‘RB’ announced as new names for Alfa Romeo and AlphaTauri”

1. 

   Electroball76
   15th December 2023, 9:55

   Arby’s have the meats for the Red Bull sandwich
2. 

   MurasamaRA300 (@murasamara300)
   15th December 2023, 10:06

   As far as I know, F1 still hasn’t properly opened the door for Andretti.
   But Red Bull can run four cars.

   Ferrari & Mercedes could respond by doing the same.
   Just call the junior teams “FIAT” and “MB”.

   Four more seats on the grid. :)
   1. 

      MacLeod (@macleod)
      15th December 2023, 13:31

      They needs permission from the other teams to add more teams but they had the chance in the past but didn’t.
      1. 

         MurasamaRA300 (@murasamara300)
         15th December 2023, 14:40

         So … there really is a different rule for RB then.
         1. 

            Ludewig
            15th December 2023, 21:13

            @murasamara300

            Red Bull bought Minardi and ran it as a second team. They didn’t register a fully new team, so your complaint is based on mere ignorance.

            Andretti is trying to do something different than what RB did.
            1. 

               MurasamaRA300 (@murasamara300)
               16th December 2023, 9:33

               Well, thank you for pointing out my ignorance.
               That is very helpful of you.

               I still count four (4) Red Bull cars and zero (0) Andretti cars.
      2. 

         SteveR (@stever)
         15th December 2023, 16:14

         No, the other teams don’t have any say in this. Liberty, the owners of commercial F1, are the deciders.
         1. 

            S
            16th December 2023, 9:56

            No, the other teams don’t have any say in this. Liberty, the owners of commercial F1, are the deciders.

            I’m sure you know better than that, @stever.
            Officially, the teams have no direct power – but unofficially, they have more than Liberty does.

            Liberty and the teams ahave effectively become ‘one’ in terms of the financial aspects of F1.
            It is their collusion which has lead to the teams now being paid so much money as to require little to no outside sponsorship – in exchange for ‘controversial’ changes to F1’s event schedule and operations such as a larger calendar, budget caps, development BoP and sprint races to augment F1’s consumer base and help Liberty to sell F1 to more people for more money (much of which the teams will get).

            Liberty will allow Andretti in on the commercial goodies only when their mates (the existing teams) are satisfied that they’ll not be losing any money. At all.
            The need to placate the existing teams in this way is the only reason Liberty have to not welcome Andretti. They’d otherwise have done it already.
3. 

   Jere (@jerejj)
   15th December 2023, 10:09

   So the AlphaTauri name didn’t go away entirely, after all.
4. 

   Esploratore (@esploratore1)
   15th December 2023, 10:17

   When I thought names couldn’t get any worse!
   1. 

      frood19 (@frood19)
      16th December 2023, 6:48

      Exactly, these are just plain awful. I hope we don’t get to the point teams just arbitrarily change their names every year like in pro cycling.

      Also, it’s very sad how much of a closed shop F1 is right now. We need a decent number of teams (20 has always been far too few on the grid) and we should see at least some turnover in the drive lineup. Liberty or the FIA are letting vested interests rule and it will ultimately harm the sport. I can’t help but feel this netflix driven interest is faddish and ephemeral.
   2. 

      Nick T.
      17th December 2023, 5:38

      RB is just a placeholder name. Not the final name, but yeah, Sauber’s new official name is embarrassing. It seems to me that that the teams don’t realize you can create strong value by picking one good name, sticking with it and only selling the rights for a partner to tack their name alongside it. No one would want to replace the entire Ferrari name. They’d want their name right next to it.
5. 

   Moshambles (@moshambles)
   15th December 2023, 10:20

   I feel sick
   1. 

      pcxmac (@pcxmac)
      15th December 2023, 22:49

      Chemo sucks.
6. 

   Coventry Climax
   15th December 2023, 10:21

   Team representative Alessandro Alunni Bravi described their rebranding as Kick Sauber as “the latest and boldest display of the philosophy that drives us.”

   By the sound of it, that philosophy has close ties to masochism.

   For the stats guys: Same cars, same rules, same drivers, same teams. Has it ever happened before that so little changed from one season to the other?
7. 

   Hotbottoms (@hotbottoms)
   15th December 2023, 10:39

   Do you think RB will have the same line-up in 2024 as they had in 2023 or will RB at some point promote one of their RB drivers to RB? And if one of the drivers from RB will be promoted to RB, will the dropped driver from RB move to RB or will they promote some other driver to RB?
   1. 

      Crawliin-from-the-wreckage (@davedai)
      15th December 2023, 10:50

      You’ve given me a headache.
      I need a shot of Rhythm & Blues.
      1. 

         Coventry Climax
         15th December 2023, 11:03

         Rythm and Blues as per pre-nineties definition, or the whining women music after that? The latter would give me headaches, if I weren’t so quick to turn that off.
8. 

   Tristan
   15th December 2023, 11:00

   Oh my God. The streaming platform that advocates promoting gambling to children is what they’re going with? First F1 getting in bed with crypto, now this… Who is saying F1 is in a great position financially again? Its all fluff and really concerning if this is who they need to get money from…

   Kick Sauber indeed.
   1. 

      S
      15th December 2023, 11:44

      The money is the same no matter who or where it comes from.
      When (since the arrival of tobacco sponsorship) was F1 any different? Or any other top level motorsport series, for that matter?

      Who is saying F1 is in a great position financially again?

      Everyone is, because they are. They’ve never been in a better position.
      1. 

         Ludewig
         16th December 2023, 11:30

         @S

         When (since the arrival of tobacco sponsorship) was F1 any different?

         Exactly. This comment section often feels like it’s a surrealist art work, because the takes are so weird and ahistoric.

         Kick has a lot of money, so they are hardly evidence of financial failure. Rich Energy was a much better example, although that still only showed that teams don’t have an easy time finding sponsors, not that the series itself is in financial trouble.
         1. 

            Tristan
            16th December 2023, 12:09

            This comment section often feels like it’s a surrealist art work, because the takes are so weird and ahistoric.

            Eh, I prefer it when it’s like this over childish ham verstappen arguing.

            Honestly, I’ll admit the ideas I float out here are often first thoughts and not thought through, but usually someone chimes in with either a strong and wise counterpoint… or a worse one…
      2. 

         Tristan
         16th December 2023, 12:03

         It’s not necessarily about how much money it is. It’s the message that money is selling. There’s a reason tobacco smoking is banned and advertising gambling to children is not much better and a matter of time before Kicks business model is outlawed by governments.

         That they have to reach to companies like this for sponsorship is in my opinion indicative of either not having a social conscience or out of necessity.
         1. 

            S
            16th December 2023, 13:45

            That they have to reach to companies like this for sponsorship is in my opinion indicative of either not having a social conscience or out of necessity.

            Did it occur to you that this sponsor may have approached the team instead of the other way around?
            F1 is a massive marketing arena – attractive to large, wealthy brands looking to show that brand to as many people as possible, as efficiently as possible, and to associate it with (subjectively) positive experiences and lifestyles.
            To get this much global exposure by other means, they’d likely have to spend twice as much. Or more. And think of how many individual advertising contracts they would have to manage to do so…

            Who is selling what, exactly?
            F1 and the individual teams sell marketing space on billboards (mobile and/or stationary) to be shown on global TV. They aren’t moral police – they would make absolutely terrible ones if they were.
            This sponsor is simply advertising their (currently) legal product via a (currently) legal means.

            Personally, I find it a stretch to put smoking (proven to cause cancer) and gambling (a common, fun and usually healthy behaviour) in the same basket.
            Gambling, in some form or other, is almost omnipresent these days. Actually, it’s a necessary part of life to gain experience in, especially in modern times.
            Ask anyone who took out a huge home loan in the last 3 or 4 years, with interest rates and cost of living on the rise…
   2. 

      Coventry Climax
      15th December 2023, 17:46

      I have no clue whatsoever what Kick is. So that made for an internet search, which brought me here.
      After reading it, I still have no clue, but I’m warned to keep an eye on my children. Also, I’ll also have to do a search for ‘Twitch’ and a couple other silly named ‘services’, as I haven’t the foggiest what they are either.
      What was interesting though, is that there’s a link saying ‘Who owns Kick?’
      I think I’ll leave it there, and I’m an adult.
      And engineer with 35+ years experience in computerized environments. Maybe that says it all.
      1. 

         SteveP
         15th December 2023, 22:31

         Also, I’ll also have to do a search for ‘Twitch’ and a couple other silly named ‘services’, as I haven’t the foggiest what they are either.

         If you’re old enough to remember the Climax, you’ll recall people watching over the shoulder of someone on a space invaders machine.
         Add a few decades, add a few modernised graphics, and call it a service that people go online for.

         And engineer with 35+ years experience in computerized environments.

         Yep, old enough… :) Space Invaders was cutting edge, at the time.

         Maybe that says it all.

         Yup.
         1. 

            Coventry Climax
            15th December 2023, 23:46

            Thanks for kicking in the door I opened..

            I’ll also confess that I do actually have ‘some idea’ of what Kick offers – but, like social media, I’m just not interested.
            I also avoided arcade halls back in the day, but I did own an Atari console for a time. While Space Invaders was OK, Frogger got me really addicted for a while.
            But then I went back to messing with motorcycles and cars and added computers to the list, which was all way more fun.
   3. 

      Ludewig
      15th December 2023, 22:02

      The streaming platform that advocates promoting gambling to children is what they’re going with?

      Is this based on Glenn Greenwald’s reporting? Because Glenn has extremely weak evidence for his accusation, to the point where I would call his reporting deceptive click-bait. He uses the word “young audience” a lot to insinuate that any live streaming on Kick targets children, but provides no data on what part of the general audience of Kick, or the audience of the gambling channels, is younger than 18 or 21 (the two most common age restrictions for gambling). General data on live streaming viewers shows that the vast majority are younger than 34 and almost no viewers are 55+. Compared with viewers of regular TV, that definitely makes it a very young audience, but it still means that there are very many live streaming viewers for whom gambling is legal.

      The only actual bit of evidence he provides is a single snippet of a single stream where the streamer says that his audience are high schoolers. There is no evidence provided that this is the intent of Kick or the sponsor, or anything else that would justify the claim that Kick is targeting children, rather than that they don’t know or care.

      Over the top accusations without the evidence to back them up just make me lose trust in the messenger and journalists have been doing a lot of stuff to make people lose trust in them.

      Anyway, you can make a good argument that Kick should put strict age verification on these streams and don’t care about children enough, but age restrictions have always had to have been imposed by the government, also for things like alcohol, so it seems more sensible to primarily call it a failure of legislators to restrict this.
      1. 

         Nick T.
         17th December 2023, 5:42

         Glen Greenwald is now equivalent to The National Enquirer. Dude went from exposing the US surveillance apparatus to Putin shill. A sad story.
9. 

   Mike
   15th December 2023, 11:14

   Tracing Bulls, the B team will be used for illegal RB wind tunnel testing to get around the weak punishment for the overspend kings.
   1. 

      PacificPR (@streydt)
      15th December 2023, 11:59

      Been wondering about that too, seems like a pretty big loophole in the rules.
      1. 

         ben
         15th December 2023, 13:19

         I’m sure there’s absolutely nothing going on. The fact Alpha Tauri tested a new 2024 floor the weekend after RedBull tested it is clearly a coincidence. They might look identical, but again that just seems like another complete coincidence and both teams of designers just had the same exact ideas.

         We’ve seen countless times the Alpha Tauris jumping out of the way of the RedBulls or not attending steward meetings so the main team avoids punishment. It’s a real grey area which I hope doesn’t impact racing or results next season.
         They’ll be fighting for podiums next year too as it’ll basically be this years RedBull, so those kind of games could make it impossible for Ferrari, Mercedes, Mclaren etc to even get close in the Championship standings.
         1. 

            PacificPR (@streydt)
            15th December 2023, 13:44

            Yes that was true for this year. But next year:

            AlphaTauri technical director Jody Egginton confirmed the team will follow Red Bull’s design lead more closely with its new design for 2024

            So for that reason I am seriously wondering about it.
         2. 

            MichaelN
            15th December 2023, 15:55

            It’s a real grey area

            It might be in a very generous take on the situation, but the sporting regulations state that a competitor must, and may only, field two cars.

            The fact that every consequential statement about this “team” is made by Christian Horner, including updates on the condition of one of “their” drivers, makes it pretty blatant that there is no meaningful distinction between the “two” teams. The “team principal” Tost had no real power, and neither will his successor (although in his case that might be for the best).

            To Red Bull’s credit, they have in the past made decent use of their third and fourth cars to bring new talent into the sport. Now, it’s just a place to put their Honda-appointee and an old friend.
         3. 

            MattDS (@mattds)
            15th December 2023, 18:44

            They’ll be fighting for podiums next year too as it’ll basically be this years RedBull

            It will not “basically be this years Red Bull” and no amount of repeating it is suddenly going to make it true. Competitors can buy the allowed parts from other competitors, which is what AT will do, and cannot get data or designs about other parts. That includes floor, bodywork etc.
            They can try to make visual copies, much like the Pink Mercedes example, but that is it. And everyone can do that.
            And the “jumping out of the way” part is so overdone. Red Bull are seldomly bhind AT and if they are they usually are so much faster that it makes no sense to put up a fight so they don’t – just like pretty much all other midfield teams.
            1. 

               anon
               15th December 2023, 20:19

               @mattds Jody Egginton has previously confirmed that the team will be increasing the number of parts that are purchased from Red Bull, and it is expected that many of the components, such as the whole of the front and rear suspension assemblies, will be taken directly from the RB19.

               On the topic of copying components, Marko has been extremely vocal in his proposals that Alpha Tauri should purchase the maximum number of parts from the parent team as permitted, and should then focus on copying the remaining components – with Jody Egginton confirming that Alpha Tauri did switch to increased copying from Red Bull in the latter part of 2023.

               What has perhaps also raised questions about the separation between Alpha Tauri and Red Bull was the announcement last year that Red Bull are relocating a significant proportion of Alpha Tauri’s design team into the main Red Bull campus in the UK. Laurent Mekies, who has now taken up the team principle role at the team, has also talked about modelling the relationship between Alpha Tauri and Red Bull on the lines of Haas and Ferrari, part of which would potentially include having Red Bull staff on secondment within Alpha Tauri.

               Furthermore, whilst Alpha Tauri used to use their own wind tunnel site in Bicester, Red Bull and Alpha Tauri will now be sharing a wind tunnel site, with all of Alpha Tauri’s wind tunnel testing team being relocated to Red Bull’s facility.

               It is the direct sharing of wind tunnel facilities, and particularly the potential for Red Bull staff to be seconded to Alpha Tauri, that is making some wonder about the possibility of a RB19 clone.
            2. 

               MattDS (@mattds)
               15th December 2023, 21:35

               anon, nothing in your post goes against anything I said nor against the rules. I acknowledged buying the allowed parts, I acknowledged the possibility of making a visual copy. Any team can do that.

               Creating a visual copy doesn’t mean you end up with the same car as last year or its performance. There’s far more to what makes an F1 car fast than just exterior resemblance.

               Teams have shared windtunnels in the past. Sharing a windtunnel doesn’t equal sharing data of windtunnel runs, which is where the actual learnings are.
            3. 

               Ludewig
               15th December 2023, 22:05

               And the “jumping out of the way” part is so overdone.

               Yeah, very often when people in this comment section talk about RB, it seems like come up with a narrative just because they dislike the team, and not because they have any actual facts to back up their accusations.
            4. 

               PacificPR (@streydt)
               16th December 2023, 8:02

               I think all your points are valid. However I do fear we might end up with a situation where the RB (AlphaTauri) and RBR (Red Bull) have so much overlap in design that other teams might raise questions – especially if it turns out the performance of RB isn’t far off the RBR or if RBR starts using design ideas from the RB – there are more cognitive ways to share ideas than just blueprints and computer models – a chat and some free advice, someone looking over your shoulder – the kind of things that are really hard to monitor for any rule maker. Personally I wouldn’t be against teams being able to share more data and wouldn’t mind teams basically having 4 cars instead of 2 – it might make it easier for teams to catch up on a dominating team and it might prevent from one driver completely dominating a season (which was okay in a season of 16 / 17 races and in the tradition of F1 but it is a bit of a killjoy with 24 races on the calendar).
10. 

    Terrion (@terrion)
    15th December 2023, 11:16

    Well, the Kick team just won Ludwig’s Creator Dodgeball World Championship. So I guess winning an F1 title is just the next step.
11. 

    MichaelN
    15th December 2023, 11:29

    F1 is doing so well that one team is partnering with a streaming platform owned in large part by a casino, and another is casually running four cars in obvious violation of the sporting regulations.

    Yay!
    1. 

       S
       15th December 2023, 11:56

       F1 is doing so well that one team is… casually running four cars in obvious violation of the sporting regulations.

       Apparently it’s not obvious to the independent organisation who owns the series and implements the regs (who have absolutely nothing to gain by allowing it to continue, if there is a breach.
       Nor is it obvious to any of the other teams, either – since none of them are doing anything about it.

       If there was even a shred of evidence of Red Bull cheating, you know Toto would be all over it in the media – and then quickly deny that he ever made any accusations whatsoever, as that is obviously the wrong thing to do and he could never know any inside information because he has certainly never had an informant….
       But then, perhaps he just prefers to stay quiet on this one after supplying the pink Mercedes team with some illegal goodies several years ago…
       1. 

          notagrumpyfan
          16th December 2023, 9:34

          Interestingly there is (or has been) a closer relationship between Ferrari and Haas or Mercedes and Williams, but fans only ‘see the obvious’ when the name is closely matched.

          Sometimes I wonder if the new Netflix fans are really a step down from the self professed real fans.
          1. 

             MichaelN
             16th December 2023, 10:04

             There was plenty of grumbling in the early 2000s when Sauber was basically the Ferrari B team. I think it was in 2004 that they showed up with what seemed like a perfect copy of the previous Ferrari, and various drivers from teams competing with Ferrari complained publicly about being held up by Sauber drivers.

             The Ferrari connection with Haas also came under scrutiny in 2016 when Haas was suddenly a consistent midfield team. Now that they’re languishing at the back people don’t really care anymore. Same with Williams, when Russell candidly explained he was a Mercedes driver, nobody really cared because Williams was such a poorly run organisation that they invariably finished at the back.

             When Red Bull’s third and fourth cars start being constant point scorers, people in F1 will inevitably change their tune. We already saw that in Brazil, where they were among the fastest cars out there.
    2. 

       MattDS (@mattds)
       15th December 2023, 18:47

       Red Bull and AT are not “obviously violating the sporting rules”. They are 100% complying to the regulations to be separate competitors.
       Further more I take it it was far better when F1 was sponsored by companies whose main business it was to make people mortally ill?
       1. 

          MichaelN
          16th December 2023, 10:06

          Ferrari’s enduring relation with PMI is a stain on their image and legacy, for sure.
12. 

    Sergey Martyn
    15th December 2023, 13:17

    Such a stupid name… Let me propose:

    Slap Alpine
    Thump Mercedes
    Smack Ferrari
    Punch Haas
    Whack Williams
    etc.
    1. 

       Pat Pepper
       15th December 2023, 20:42

       Don’t forget Krack Aston Martin!
       1. 

          Nick T.
          17th December 2023, 5:46

          That was low, Pat. Lower than my plumber’s pants…
          1. 

             Pat Pepper
             17th December 2023, 22:19

             Plumber’s pants Mike Krack, Nick.
             Or possibly yours….
13. 

    Sonny Crockett (@sonnycrockett)
    15th December 2023, 14:11

    RB? That’s how many of us refer to… RB!

    Proof, if ever it was needed, that Horner et al are just trolling us all!
14. 

    floodo1 (@floodo1)
    15th December 2023, 14:27

    Kick Sauber wow
15. 

    The Dolphins
    15th December 2023, 18:20

    They had the opportunity to hyphenate the name but chose not to, I’m sure they’ll be kicking themselves over that.
    1. 

       Coventry Climax
       15th December 2023, 23:53

       Just turning the two around; Sauber Kick, would have been so much better already.
       They must have thought about it all, you’d think. But that actually only makes me doubt them more.
16. 

    Dex
    15th December 2023, 20:13

    I’m not making jokes here. I seriously thought that someone demanded (from FIA or whomever) to kick Sauber and Red Bull from F1 for some reason. Then I realized what this is and I have to say, no wonder why my mind played with me. One name is stupid, and another is just… so creative.
    1. 

       Pat Pepper
       17th December 2023, 13:56

       My apologies to Dex, I reported the comment by accident. Note to mods: please ignore.
       This is the second time I’ve done this while reading Racefans on a touchscreen. I know it’s entirely my fault but other website designs don’t seem to allow my senior touchscreen moments to do this quite so easily – or at least, if they do, they have a cancel button.
17. 

    Pat Pepper
    15th December 2023, 20:44

    I’m waiting for the moment Crofty informs us about a Kick up the Haas.
    1. 

       SteveP
       15th December 2023, 22:41

       I’m waiting for the moment Crofty informs us about a Kick up the Haas

       Nah. That’s too highbrow for Crofty, you need to pitch the wit a bit lower (maybe a lot lower)
       1. 

          Jim (@jimgogo)
          16th December 2023, 7:50

          Exactly what I was thinking haha, although now he’s probably seen it, it’s too late. They do spy on these discussions. My new Christmas wish is for him to pipe down a bit next year, we all know that will fall completely on deaf ears though sadly. Gotta’ have that fake, superficial effect to bring in the new viewers, right!?
          1. 

             Coventry Climax
             16th December 2023, 9:47

             Didn’t they tell you yet? Santa isn’t real.
       2. 

          Pat Pepper
          17th December 2023, 13:46

          I didn’t say he would say it as a witticism!
          But if a “Kick” literally finds itself in contact with the back end of a Haas, he could say it unwittingly or otherwise.
          Replace the name “Crofty” with the words “any commentator” and the point stands – it’s a daft name with potentially unfortunate results.
18. 

    pcxmac (@pcxmac)
    15th December 2023, 22:59

    I feel sorry for Peter. At the end of the next season when Sauber are in last place, the joke will have been worn completely over.
19. 

    Bullfrog (@bullfrog)
    15th December 2023, 23:05

    Kick Sauber while they’re down, but Audi Sport Team Sauber, or whoever, will have you.
20. 

    Lewisham Milton
    15th December 2023, 23:18

    Looking at that photo, I wish they’d called it a Whistlepig.
    (Maple syrup?!)
21. 

    RatSack
    16th December 2023, 2:33

    This is going to be so annoying when referring to the main Red Bull team as now you won’t be able to abbreviate to RB without confusion.
22. 

    Roberto Fratelli (@rfratelli)
    16th December 2023, 2:36

    Ok so Sauber it is…
23. 

    Adis
    16th December 2023, 2:43

    Kick Sauber can save themselves from the not so nice name by doing an all bright green livery, think of Lamborghini-green or neon.. because of their main sponsor we can see less black on next years grid and more color.

    And as someone else suggested, change name to Sauber Kick
24. 

    Jim (@jimgogo)
    16th December 2023, 7:41

    I’ll just keep calling them Sauber and Toro Rosso, like everyone with half a brain cell.
25. 

    Phil Norman (@phil-f1-21)
    16th December 2023, 11:17

    AT should have gone back to Toro Rosso. This was a good name. It sounds like Red Bull have still not really made up their minds.

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