F1 team mate battles at mid-season: Norris vs Ricciardo

2021 F1 season

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When Daniel Ricciardo joined Renault from Red Bull at the beginning of 2019 he took a few races to play himself in, but soon got on terms with Nico Hulkenberg.

The difficult he has faced in making the transition to McLaren has been the biggest surprise of the 2021 season. Some 11 races in, you need to look hard at the raw data to find signs of progress.

That is at least in part because Lando Norris dropped the ball more than once in qualifying over the opening races of the year. Ricciardo capitalised as his team mate slipped up, failing to produce the best on his final Q3 runs or having his quickest lap times deleted for track limits infringements.

After four races of this Norris told RaceFans he wasn’t concerned about the trend, and subsequent races have vindicated that confidence: He’s beaten Ricciardo every time since.

With Norris now bringing his ‘A game’ to qualifying as well as the races, Ricciardo’s struggles are in sharper relief. While Norris has never failed to reach Q3, Ricciardo has dropped out in Q2 five times and didn’t even make it that far in Portugal, to his obvious horror. Since then Ricciardo has had to revise his expectations of how quickly he’ll get on top of the McLaren.

Meanwhile Norris’ enforced retirement from the Hungarian Grand Prix, where Ricciardo’s car was also damaged, handed Ferrari the chance to draw level with them in the championship. It must be hurting Ricciardo to see his team mate third in the drivers’ standings – ahead of a Mercedes and a Red Bull – while he languishes behind the Ferrari pair, having contributed just 30% of McLaren’s total score.

It’s hard to imagine the newcomer can turn that around completely over the remaining races, but Ricciardo’s team urgently need him to start contributing more points if they’re going to beat Ferrari to third place.

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Lando Norris vs Daniel Ricciardo: Key stats

Lando Norris vs Daniel Ricciardo: Who finished ahead at each round

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Lando NorrisQ
R
Daniel RicciardoQ
R

Lando Norris vs Daniel Ricciardo: Qualifying gap

Times based on the last qualifying round at each race weekend in which both drivers set a time. Negative indicates Lando Norris was faster, positive means Daniel Ricciardo was faster

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Keith Collantine
Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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68 comments on “F1 team mate battles at mid-season: Norris vs Ricciardo”

  1. Michael (@freelittlebirds)
    16th August 2021, 11:59

    As the honey badger would say: Ouch!

    1. I see nick-name “honey possum” slinging around these days. :-). Guess the badger has lost some of his bite.

      1. i think this car is very “norris”. next year will be a big reset button with the new rules.

  2. Quickly adapting to a car does not seems riccis forte.
    He did great in a car build around him at red bull but the new generation seems way faster in adapting.
    Time is running out for RIC. .

    1. That’s a bit ironic, since at Red Bull Vettel couldn’t adapt to the RB10, with Ricciardo having less issues with it.
      So did Ricciardo better adapt to it, it was it just more suited to his driving style?
      We should also not forgot drivers do not have many opportunities anymore to practice in the real car.

      1. If it fits your driving style already adapting is easy..

      2. ChrisVB Personally I felt bad for SV in 2014 for he went overnight from having his good old 4 straight WDC winning car, to having a car he couldn’t recognize anymore. That had to have been very very difficult to adapt to. On the other hand DR was promoted to RBR and had to have felt like he was in the best car he’d ever been in in F1. There is no small psychological component to it when it comes to having confidence in the car to be able to push it.

        I agree with erikje in that there is adapting, and then there is adapting to a car that already feels pretty good and suits one’s driving style. And then of course there is the concept that in a way there is no point talking about cars built for specific drivers and their styles, for cars are always changing by the day and the track and conditions as to how it feels to drive, and so it becomes a game of being able to adapt by the day, or session, or even lap, based on tire states and balance and fuel load and umpteen other things that can change by the minute.

        1. @robbie

          Personally I felt bad for SV in 2014 for he went overnight from having his good old 4 straight WDC winning car, to having a car he couldn’t recognize anymore. That had to have been very very difficult to adapt to.

          This is what separates the very good drivers from the really great/genius. The success in eventually adapting to any car they’re thrown into, even if it’s ponderous to drive as a truck. Notice that Alonso and Hamilton to a lesser extent did excel sooner or later in all cars they raced in Formula 1 so far, even the not title-challenging ones. If Alonso had allowed this mindset that Vettel showed in 2014 to take over him for the 2012 season, dropping it because he was treated with an awkward project of a car right in the beginning of the season, he’d never have mounted that exceptional challenge for the WDC in considerably inferior machine for the entire season against the same guy SV, flattered by a dominant Red Bull. No surprise that Alonso was widely recognised as a better driver after the end of his campaign.

          1. Indeed, alonso kept adapting and performing even in bad cars, unfortunately I can’t say the same for certain when it comes to hamilton, simply because he’s been incredibly lucky with the cars he drove, he didn’t have a championship contending car or better only in 2009 and arguably some of the red bull years, probably 2011 and 2013, for the rest it was up there, so we haven’t really seen him “outperform” a midfield car, except maybe a short stint early 2009, what I saw there was good, but saw too little to give him the same adaptation label as alonso or schumacher.

          2. @rodewulf I don’t think your comparison of SV in 2014 to FA in 2012 works. In 2014 SV sat is his car and immediately would have known how vastly different it was to the car that had fit him like a glove and that had garnered him so much success for 4 years. The cars weren’t similar in any regard and that meant not only adapting physically but mentally as well, and he understandably felt dejected. In one regard, the plan to shake up the order after 4 years of RBR domination had worked, and the reg changes had gone Mercedes’ way, and SV would have felt handcuffed to defend his titles.

            FA in 2012 did not just experience having a Championship car stripped away from him, didn’t go from 2011 to 2012 experiencing a vastly major change to hybrid pus, and an underpowered one at that, and rather had extended his contract with Ferrari ahead of 2012 to go through 2016. He would have been stoked at a renewed opportunity at Ferrari with his renewed commitment to them.

            It’s one thing to say they all have to adapt, but then conditions can vary greatly under which drivers are having to adapt, and sometimes some factors in the equation are insurmountable.

          3. @esploratore1

            Indeed, alonso kept adapting and performing even in bad cars, unfortunately I can’t say the same for certain when it comes to hamilton, simply because he’s been incredibly lucky with the cars he drove, he didn’t have a championship contending car or better only in 2009 and arguably some of the red bull years, probably 2011 and 2013, for the rest it was up there, so we haven’t really seen him “outperform” a midfield car, except maybe a short stint early 2009, what I saw there was good, but saw too little to give him the same adaptation label as alonso or schumacher.

            I agree, there’s a huge practical on this department between Alonso and Hamilton. The Spaniard proved a lot more that he can adapt to a huge variety of cars. The point here is just really Lewis still made better than Seb as he didn’t perform badly at all when he found himself down in the upper midfield in 2009. But to reach such a level of emphatically extracting the most from all cars the driver stepped in eventually, not matter how good or crappy it is, that’s pretty much Fernando’s distinction as far as I’m aware, among all the Formula 1 racers from the current century.

          4. @robbie

            I don’t think your comparison of SV in 2014 to FA in 2012 works. In 2014 SV sat is his car and immediately would have known how vastly different it was to the car that had fit him like a glove and that had garnered him so much success for 4 years.

            So you proved it as soon as anyone could that it’s not the same situation, it’s probably even worse. I don’t think you’re aware of the weird development line Ferrari took for their 2012 car, just search about the SF2012 and see for yourself, how tricky it was to drive. But is that an excuse for Alonso? Not at all. If he couldn’t be able to eventually reach the car’s maximum potential with his drives, he wouldn’t be Alonso, would he? His fame as all-adapting would be at least partially fake.
            And before you say the regulations change made Vettel underperform, Alonso crossed the same bumpy road too, with an even weaker Ferrari package. The new regulations made nearly as few favours for Ferrari as it did for Red Bull, and that was clear from the first to the last GP that if anything Ferrari lost even more in performance and had sunk into the midfield, but even then he almost outscored Vettel in 2014 so, it’s very telling about the differerence of the caliber between the two drivers. Vettel is very good, but again this is what separates the very top from the top, the legends of the sport from the ones who reach an incredible peak and then gradually fade.

            FA in 2012 did not just experience having a Championship car stripped away from him, didn’t go from 2011 to 2012 experiencing a vastly major change to hybrid pus, and an underpowered one at that, and rather had extended his contract with Ferrari ahead of 2012 to go through 2016. He would have been stoked at a renewed opportunity at Ferrari with his renewed commitment to them.

            Fernando’s performance in the same 2014 season is the ultimate proof for your case, if you wouldn’t be convinced that Seb didn’t face the worst situation in the world on that year. That’s the problem of making analysis largely based on emotional appeals. It all gets too subjective to a level that’s annoying, and anyone can make their case based on how someone feels, even for the opposite of it as well, and no one ever agrees on anything. I’m interested in technical analysis, not on emotionally charged displays of fans.

            It’s one thing to say they all have to adapt, but then conditions can vary greatly under which drivers are having to adapt, and sometimes some factors in the equation are insurmountable.

            Not Sebastian’s case in 2014 at all, unless you make a storm out of a drizzle. Red Bull remained clearly above the midfield, as a distant second best to Mercedes but still a race winning car. He could and actually should eventually get to the grips even with the vastly different and inferior Red Bull machine of 2014 and beat Ricciardo, or at least finish the season way closer to him in the WDC, if he was to prove that his four titles is mostly on the driver rather than on the machinery. I understand the difficulties and how it works well to make excuses, and those are in fact convincing enough for a driver who’s nevertheless among the few best, but not for the very few greatest and most complete drivers. Otherwise, I agree with your remarks.

  3. Yep Ricciardo really needs to pull his finger out, to be honest I can’t see him having a big turn around this year. I have my fingers crossed for some improvement though, as long as he can finish better than he started.

  4. To think he could’ve been at red bull and doing better than perez is now, giving more chance to take the title from merc. This way is a setback for both parties: red bull and ricciardo.

    1. I wonder if there is a limit to what McLaren accepts as a gap (for the money they pay).
      And if that were to happen, what would RBR do. I still trust/hope/pray that RIC has a lot in him, and could make the difference in both Championship fights for RBR.

      1. Good question, I would think mclaren won’t accept such a gap for much longer, they want to get back to winning, I hope, not sure if there’s something like that on his contract.

        Indeed, would be interesting if they dropped him to see if red bull would bet on him again and how it’d turn out, it’s not like they have better than perez among their own drivers atm (gasly is a risk).

    2. @esploratore1 I don’t know…seems a bit of an odd way of looking at it in a way. To call what is currently going on a ‘setback’ for RBR? They’re for all intents and purposes winning the Championships this year, at least on pace anyway. But for Max being taken out in the last two races they’d still be leading both Championships, and of course that ship has sailed, just as has the DR staying at RBR ship, and it’s on to the second half. If things pick up as they left off we still have RBR with formidable pace, and we still have VB and SP way back in 4th and 5th respectively, and only 4 points apart from each other. So far LH and Max haven’t ‘needed’ VB and SP to be real and consistent flies in the ointment for their opponents to still be leading the Championship in a see-saw way. Oh I’m sure an engrained DR still at RBR would likely have a solid grasp on third in the WDC right now, and VB even lower than he is in points, but I certainly don’t call that a setback for RBR, but I suppose using the perfection of hindsight it is for DR. Oh to have a crystal ball. But it would seem second to Max was not what DR wanted.

      1. Yes, it was a move very likely to not pay off for ricciardo, he was probably trying to mimick hamilton’s mercedes move, but such high risk moves work very rarely, like you said the real reason he left red bull was probably to be the team leader in some other place, even if it was unlikely he’d end up with a better car than he left.

        When I talk about setback for red bull I mean I’m not satisfied of what perez is doing, and like you said as well, I’d expect an on form ricciardo 3rd and challenging hamilton for wins when verstappen isn’t there if he were at red bull; on pace, yes, they still seem to be slightly the better car, but I’m not sure it’ll be enough for the title, unless hamilton and mercedes get some bad luck in the 2nd half, or red bull manages to outdevelop them, they usually do but usually merc probably focuses less on their current car cause there’s no real competition for the title.

  5. This can’t go on, surely, without real consequences for Ricciardo’s tenure and reputation.

    1. Agreed. I’ve been shocked at how badly he is being beaten by Norris, and not because I don’t rate Norris, but simply because most people rate Ricciardo so highly. I wonder how many more beatings he will take before people start lumping him into the “only did well because he drove an Adrian Newey car” category.

      1. I do allow for the fact that these cars seem so darn hard to get working properly in conjunction with the tires. It’s not just that the tires are finicky but the resultant narrowness of the operating window seems to have so much negative effect on these cars, that I think it is that art we are watching having taken over from drivers doing their art of racing. DR, and SP speaks of it too, is having to innovate ways to race that keep the tires working and therefore the car working, while doing so against the grain of how they normally race.

        I suggest next year’s cars may be much less finicky to get into and maintain an operating window, and the likes of DR may not be struggling nearly so much vs Norris.

        1. Its an interesting one @robbie

          Its a bit like SEb’s problems last year with the ferrari – I don’t believe for a minute that either of them have forgotten how to drive, so there has to be a specific reason as to why Dan is lagging so far behind.

          Certainly Lando is a talent, there’s no doubting that, but the margin suggests that Dan is really struggling.

          I’ve seen some articles about corner entry, but you’d expect a professional to get on top of that and be able to adapt.

          Personally, I suspect its a muscle memory type issue. By that I mean that his whole being screams at him “wrong wrong wrong” when he’s heading into a corner because for years his brain (and quite likely his backside in the seat) has told him that there’s no chance of getting through the corner.

          I’m wondering if the older drivers, and I include him in that, have “consequences” so ingrained in them from past racing, are finding it more difficult than the younger ones who seem to have no major issue exploring track and corner limits. There has to be a reason behind their inability to adapt quickly.

          As an Aussie I’m finding it really hard to watch and I’m hoping he gets on top of it – personally I’d like to hear that he’s spending countless hours in the simulator retraining himself and perhaps less doing promotional work but I’d assume he’s got contractual requirements that probably dictate that.

          1. @dbradock Yeah for sure, and let’s recall too that there was a floor change which on it’s own was going to make the cars feel at least a little different for all drivers let alone the ones new to their teams. So you combine that change with the change in tires and the change to a new car, and it is obviously not so easy. It would seem Sainz just happens to be happier in his car, but otherwise, it’s obviously not easy. I’m sure nobody is more understanding of what DR needs to do than DR himself, and I think he can only have better days ahead. To me it really accents though how too much of the game is getting tires to work first and foremost. It feels to me like DR has had relatively very little time actually exploring the car’s capabilities which can only come when the tires are there for him and he has confidence to throw the car into and out of corners.

      2. @geemac

        To be fair he did pretty well in the Renault as well. He took a few races to get up to speed and then had a good handle on a fairly strong Hulkenberg.

        I just think this Mclaren is too different a beast for him.. maybe it’s the Mercedes engine drivability as well that’s upsetting him. Either ways, you have to be versatile and adapt… and if he fails to do so, I can see Mclaren cutting his contract short and making a strong play for Alonso.

      3. Some time ago on Dutch tv the commentator said a Mclaren mechanic told him that Ricciardo wasn’t very good in setting up his car, and that whilst at Red Bull he could rely more on Max’ setup. As if he was lacking some sort of technical skill. Don’t know if it’s true, but if it is he’s in trouble.

    2. People’s memory is short. His star was low after beaten by Verstappen and running away from the Re Bull, but after a podium at Renault he was again the next big thing.

  6. I have to remind myself sometimes he’s older than Bottas. I guess his disposition makes him still come across as one of the younger guys on the grid. The reality is that he’s massively experienced and should be in his prime.

    I’m sure he’ll turn it around, though probably not so much this year. He is running out of years to do it though. There was a time where if he wasn’t a future world champion, he was someone who was going to rack up twenty plus wins comfortably.

    1. @bernasaurus They’re equal in age. Both are 1989-born and have less than two months between birthdays, so I don’t consider them different aged.
      Technically, yes, but effectively, no.
      Anyway, relevantly on the point itself, I agree he’ll probably turn things around eventually, even if not this year.

      1. @jerejj The age gap may be small, but Ricciardo has started 32 more grand prix than Bottas so he is more experienced.

        1. Yet VB has way more experience in a WCC car capable of fighting for wins and WDCs from the front row. Experiencing the pressures that come with that as well as the advantages. It would be interesting to have seen how DR would have faired in VB’s place.

  7. The only real like-for-like comparison is within a team during quali (using median to ignore towing and other outliers):
    SCH vs MAZ -0.518s
    GAS vs TSU -0.443s
    VER vs PER -0.354s
    GIO vs RAI -0.352s
    RUS vs LAT -0.350s
    NOR vs RIC -0.304s
    LEC vs SAI -0.167s
    HAM vs BOT -0.132s
    ALO vs OCO -0.078s
    VET vs STR -0.048s
    Looking at it like this it seems that maybe Russell is not so much Mr Saturday as we thought.
    Also Bottas was probably much closer to Hamilton on Saturdays than many expected.

    The left column is also IMO the individual racers who performed best on Sundays except for the GIO/RAI due (and also VET/STR was pretty close, and SAI a lot closer to LEC than the latter should’ve allowed him).

    1. Also Bottas was probably much closer to Hamilton on Saturdays than many expected.

      Bottas is quick, people just chose to ignore it. Over the course of his career at Mercedes there has been very little in it between them over one lap. If Bottas is close to or beats Hamilton people always revert to the lazy “oh well he’s in a Mercedes” rhetoric to undermine just what a class grand prix driver he is.

      1. @geemac I don’t think anyone ignores that VB is quick. But one cannot ignore that he is in the Mercedes that has been a dynasty for 8 seasons, and one cannot ignore the fact that VB has yet to challenge LH in any real and meaningful way. We have needed for VB to take the gloves off and actually race with that race car, and he simply doesn’t have the race craft to warrant having that car, imho. He barely beat Max last year when the Mercs were utterly dominant. This year he is barely ahead of SP who still struggles to acclimatize to his car.

        Being quick is great, but it is only one component to the game. Being quick and applying that quickness is another story, and I don’t see a lot of excitement coming from VB’s story given the equipment he’s been afforded. A class Grand Prix driver? Ok. But a true racer? Not so much.

      2. @geemac Exactly, and then you get this nonsense that it’s bad that he’s unable to beat one of the best drivers ever in F1.

        Or the bla bla that he cannot overtake. He and Hamilton helped evolve that car into the highly tuned car it is. Which works great in quali or when driving in the lead, but with the side effect that this makes it very difficult to drive in the wake of another car. So yeah the car struggles when trying to overtake. An exceptional driver like Hamilton can deal with that somewhat better

        Or the even more mind boggling notion that Perez is on the same level. Perez has finished ahead of Bottas only twice this season. While Perez is driving the faster car.

        Sure Bottas struggles a bit more than Hamilton when the car is not as good as is the case this season. And sure Perez is not yet accustomed to the car, never was any good at qualifying and is getting second rate material with all upgrades going to Verstappen first. Even so, Perez has been poor apart from that one fluke win in Baku. While Bottas has been steady on the Podium for most of the races he finished this season. Which is the best you could expect from a good driver in the second fastest car.

        1. @f1osaurus

          Exactly, and then you get this nonsense that it’s bad that he’s unable to beat one of the best drivers ever in F1.

          He could have gone closer or even beat him across a season at least one time, like Button and Rosberg, if he really was the excellent driver that some say.

          Or the bla bla that he cannot overtake. He and Hamilton helped evolve that car into the highly tuned car it is. Which works great in quali or when driving in the lead, but with the side effect that this makes it very difficult to drive in the wake of another car. So yeah the car struggles when trying to overtake. An exceptional driver like Hamilton can deal with that somewhat better

          Bla bla that’s plainly true, isn’t it? And we don’t see many other drivers having that amount of trouble to overtake, so poor racecraft is the most likely explanation, unless he sacrifices it completely as a favour to the entitled one. Again you use Bottas’ difficulties in a ridiculous bid to enhance Hamilton.

          Or the even more mind boggling notion that Perez is on the same level. Perez has finished ahead of Bottas only twice this season. While Perez is driving the faster car.

          Here just repetitions of your bogus claims never justified nor demonstrated. Perez spent years being a decent but not great midfield runner whilst Bottas never actually came close to Hamilton over a full season. Now that Perez is doing the same thing Bottas is so used to do, which is lagging way behind a top team’s teammate, how much has it changed? And more, if Perez finished just twice in front of Bottas, and they’re separated by just a few points, you can’t save Bottas from being pointed out as terribly underwhelming, even in a slower car he should have scored a lot more points. Unless Mercedes is not that slower than Red Bull. Ain’t it right, Fool1oSaurus? ;)

          Sure Bottas struggles a bit more than Hamilton when the car is not as good as is the case this season. And sure Perez is not yet accustomed to the car, never was any good at qualifying and is getting second rate material with all upgrades going to Verstappen first. Even so, Perez has been poor apart from that one fluke win in Baku. While Bottas has been steady on the Podium for most of the races he finished this season. Which is the best you could expect from a good driver in the second fastest car.

          Funny how Bottas simply struggles more with the car, but all fairness within Mercedes, whilst Verstappen/Horner/Marko evil trio sabotages Perez with crappy material, isn’t it? Now where’s the proof for such claims? Does their puppy Bottas even get the same upgrades than LH44? And did you know that the majority of relevant adjustments on a Formula 1 car is up to the driver himself as he has a say in the setup choices and that’s why Hamilton got it wrong in Monaco and Bottas did even worse in Baku? Oh, and as for the Baku race, what kind of solid second driver has this awful performance in any given race like that one? Or Imola as well, utterly poor race pace, worse than anything Perez can produce. And putting it alongside the Hungary lap 1 debacle, we can understand why a driver that has been 6 times in the podium this season (most of which were lonely third-place finishes from 3rd or higher in the starting grid anyway, so even that partially shows the lack of racecraft and overly reliance on quali) cannot be significantly ahead of one who just stood in the podium twice: besides the general toothless approach on racing there’s also an appalling lack of fighting spirit when things go wrong. And this is supposed to be the guy that lifts Hamilton as the latter beats him, isn’t it that way? How pathetic for a wannabe GOAT, then.

        2. I agree with both of you about Bottas clearly not being a “waste of being in a mercedes” as some tend to talk about him @f1osaurus, @geemac.

          Although I somewhat agree with the argument @robbie makes that we would all really like/want Bottas to be a better racer (how many in the last decade were almost as good as Hamilton though, 1-2?) or even “needed” him to be that in the past few seasons, I feel it is not fair to a driver.

          I guess we just really do need to accept that Rosberg was probably better than “britney” as Webber dubbed him (as dismissively, and somewhat unfairly, as “first lap nutcase IMO) since he indeed did keep Hamilton having a battle on his hands. But then, Hamilton is a better driver himself now too, since he learned how to deal with swings in form and upsets and honed his racecraft, weekend planning and mentality over the years.

          The Mercedes did clearly show us in recent years that while they get a lot of efficient downforce from good air, it means the car can be harder to extract that pace when in traffic. We saw it with Hamilton a few times as well this year. And since Bottas is not on the “GOAT” shortlist currently probably topped by Hamilton, we can hardly expect him to be great with that car.

          I do think that Bottas does lack somewhat in racecraft there, but indeed, Perez showed he also make mistakes (probably from feeling under pressure to perform) while racing other cars. Which might be exactly what Bottas is trying to avoid and which results in him being too careful at times and as a result not getting much done. His tyre management seems to be a weakspot compared to Hamilton too, but again, only a few drivers wouldn’t be.

          The most important thing is to me, that he does seem to be a solid component of having a team that has had the fastest car on average at least, over the last few years. They have Hamilton to win the races, and Bottas to be the rear gunner (ha, yeah, exactly what Horner mentioned in Hungary, right – good shot ;-) ).

      3. Bottas is quick in qualifying, not in the races, and he has issues overtaking, always been like it.

        I also find that people on average overrate hamilton and underrate bottas: the other day I was reading a driver mid season ranking for 2021, and most of it was reasonable, and example verstappen and norris got 9\10, while perez got 6,5; I immediately thought 6,5 was too generous to him, but ok.

        Then mercedes came and I thought: they should give an 8 to hamilton since he’s made several mistakes compared to verstappen and 7 to bottas since he’s been slightly better than perez, but since hamilton is always overrated and bottas underrated, they will probably give them 8,5 and 6,5; not even! 8,5 to hamilton, only half a point under verstappen, so basically serious mistakes dock 0,25 points each for hamilton, wow! And 5,5 to bottas I think it was, the same as they gave to ricciardo, less than they gave to schumacher, so apart from verstappen and hamilton being too close, I can’t understand why perez is being ranked ahead of bottas!

        1. @esploratore1 Yeah you easily forget how Hamilton was beating Verstappen in the first part of the season while Verstappen already had the faster car.. Only when they upgraded the engine and got ahead further for France did Verstappen finally get t he edge that he could win races.

          Norris is also making mistakes as is Leclerc. Verstappen also made plenty. Costly ones like running tyres below advised for Baku, cutting an extreme line through a fast corner in Silverstone with a car on the inside. That’s just not smart. Plus all the messed up Q3 sessions where he sets his fastest time when the track is slowest or (Spain, Hungary) or not at all (Monaco and Baku) or goes off and loses his pole time (Imola).

          1. Yeah you easily forget how Hamilton was beating Verstappen in the first part of the season while Verstappen already had the faster car..

            A lie repeated one thousand times doesn’t become true, @f1osaurus. Why you never proved things before shouting your nonsense to the wind? Was Red Bull really faster in Imola, Portimao and Barcelona tracks? From where did you take that impression? From the ultra biased echo chamber that one would euphemistically call fanbase, probably.

          2. Yeah you easily forget how Hamilton was beating Verstappen in the first part of the season while Verstappen already had the faster car..

            A lie repeated one thousand times doesn’t become true, @f1osaurus. Why you never really bother to prove things before shouting your nonsense to the wind? Was Red Bull really faster in Imola, Portimao and Barcelona tracks? From where did you take that impression? From the ultra biased echo chamber that one would euphemistically call fanbase, probably.

          3. @f1osaurus

            Norris is also making mistakes as is Leclerc. Verstappen also made plenty. Costly ones like running tyres below advised for Baku, cutting an extreme line through a fast corner in Silverstone with a car on the inside.

            One conspiracy theory about tyres in Baku and the stubborn dope behaviour about a crash that other driver was held the main responsible for. You’re never tired to embarass yourself, to the point it becomes cringey, on how much lower it still can get.

          4. @rodewulf Dude seriously. Knock it off

          5. @f1osaurus

            Dude seriously. Knock it off

            Finally I may agree with you, it’s pointless. You can’t keep up with my arguments and at the same time you never bother to justify yours. A lost case. When the only thing you reply are some flailing words it’s clear you don’t want nor even can learn anything beyond your dogmas. But I believe in free speech so, keep on spreading misinformation online, but don’t dare to complain if your reputation becomes low as a result.

          6. @rodewulf Yeah when you pretend official FIA/Pirelli findings are a conspiracy theory then why would I bother further reading your rants or actually replying your deluge of comments?

            You are the one who keeps spreading nonsense. Just get lost.

          7. @f1osaurus

            Yeah when you pretend official FIA/Pirelli findings are a conspiracy theory then why would I bother further reading your rants or actually replying your deluge of comments?

            The conspiracy here is you single out teams’ and especially Verstappen’s blame on the incident, like if they had done something different than usual about those crappy tyres. The findings are right, but Pirelli is incompetent for not producing safe tyres regardless of it, with hypersensitive rubber than looks as consisten as cotton candy. But the top one dishonest claim here is lay blame on Verstappen or Stroll (as a collateral of your nonsense) for their tyre failures at high speeds. Every driver was in danger here, there was a randomness of which cars’ tyres would explode. They didn’t exceeded the recommended wear range so no fault of their own drives.
            Of course you take that to hide the true driving error of Hamilton and his fuffled restart in the same race, as a smokescreen to keep pretending your idol is infallible. LH44 minions are the only ones on this type of childish behaviour on this site, everybody else promptly admit all those drivers mess up sometimes. But you need to create several conspiracy theories, like that one of not letting Perez perform well at Red Bull (in a clear contradiction with another bullcrap you made of Perez being a horrible driver when he’s just average), just to create the false facts needed to support your narrative.

            You are the one who keeps spreading nonsense. Just get lost.

            You seriously need to grow up, at least on attitude.

      4. Well thats an interesting perspective. I look at it from the other angle. Lewis should be 0,3 faster than Bottas all the time. The fact that he isnt says a lot about the Mercedes and Lewis.

        1. No, Bottas also gets a good car and the support he needs to set a good lap. So he should be within a few tenths. He might focus a bit more on race setup and drop a bit of speed for Q3, but that’s apparently how he likes to operate.

          It’s not like Red Bull where Perez is on his own and has to deal with Verstappen’s car trying to make it work for his driving style, but then always one specification behind too. All of that together would cost Perez at 8 tenths a second in quali.

          1. @f1osaurus

            No, Bottas also gets a good car and the support he needs to set a good lap. So he should be within a few tenths. He might focus a bit more on race setup and drop a bit of speed for Q3, but that’s apparently how he likes to operate.

            How Mercs are a nice team, aren’t them? Those are the saints.

            It’s not like Red Bull where Perez is on his own and has to deal with Verstappen’s car trying to make it work for his driving style, but then always one specification behind too. All of that together would cost Perez at 8 tenths a second in quali.

            And how Verstappen/Horner/Marko are horrible evil creatures! I’m amused by the whole fairy tale you built! Who needs to prove the existance of magical creatures. This is about right. For a fanatic head capable of distorting anything as its wish.

          2. @rodewulf

            How Mercs are a nice team, aren’t them? Those are the saints.

            Well at least they go out of their way to make everything equal for their drivers.

            It’s fact that Perez is running on old spec. Plus it’s clear they don’t support their #2 drivers. Why would they? As they said they are only interested in Verstappen.

            That’s all fine, Perez signed up knowing that I’m sure. He was so happy when he was told to let Verstappen past and when he was told to drop his own championship points so he could help Verstappen by taking one away from Hamilton. All fact.

            The problem is when delusionals like you pretend that all that disadvantage that Perez has does not reflect in his lap times. Driving a car you don’t like how it handles, with outdated parts and then he’s someone supposed to set the best possible laptime.

            Perez has never been any good at qualifying and then they cost him so much laptime on top of that. It’s shocking he’s that close to Verstappen still.

          3. @f1osaurus

            Well at least they go out of their way to make everything equal for their drivers.

            In your rose tinted glasses projected world, yes. In reality, VB was sacrificed many times for the main strategy, and Red Bull doesn’t treat Perez any different.

            It’s fact that Perez is running on old spec. Plus it’s clear they don’t support their #2 drivers. Why would they? As they said they are only interested in Verstappen.

            It reminds me Rosberg and his chassis doubt about Mercedes. Making a storm out of a drizzle because he run old spec. For how long have he been running it? You never show verifiable source and your conclusions are as biased as to make your word worth less than a falsified penny. So why not bring support for you claims? Anyway, after making it look like the world would fall because the temporary use of chassis and spec, did you know that the majority of relevant adjustments on a Formula 1 car is up to the driver himself as he has a say in the setup choices and that’s why Hamilton got it wrong in Monaco and Bottas did even worse in Baku? The larger part of mechanical tuning difference is within reach of the driver. Unless you prove me Perez is a masochist and Verstappen/Horner/Marko are horrible evil creatures it’s your delusions screaming more than anything.

            That’s all fine, Perez signed up knowing that I’m sure. He was so happy when he was told to let Verstappen past and when he was told to drop his own championship points so he could help Verstappen by taking one away from Hamilton. All fact.

            No matter how many other opposite examples we bring, it never stick onto your feeble mind. What did Bottas in the British GP again? All established second drivers will be asked to get out of the way when the team’s leading driver is coming. For the viewer its a shame, though. Mercs are exception only in your distorted world made of lies, again.

            The problem is when delusionals like you pretend that all that disadvantage that Perez has does not reflect in his lap times. Driving a car you don’t like how it handles, with outdated parts and then he’s someone supposed to set the best possible laptime.

            I guess you finally look into the mirror and thought it was me, isnt it? And it’s clear you’re really a silly fan of the sport in general, at least on the topics concerning strategy. Lap times? You only care about quali and who sets the fastest lap of the race? You haven’t let go even of that failed approach of measuring cars’ strength by the FLAP, despite that other commentator KingShark proved you wrong ages ago. Not surprising that you’re completely a non-stop scratched disco that only plays the same sound over and over again. Perez is not a good qualifier, that’s right, but the very fact that he’s still close to Bottas in the WDC proves how Lewis’ teammate is also relatively weak. Not only Max has been having an easy time intra-team. But this piece of knowledge is worthless for someone who doesn’t want to listen.

            Perez has never been any good at qualifying and then they cost him so much laptime on top of that. It’s shocking he’s that close to Verstappen still.

            Close? Haha Now you reached and all-time low of intelligence. Verstappen is 83 points ahead of Perez in the WDC. Maybe your problem is some crap you’re on, btw. Even with all the points Max lost with no fault of his own (except the collision in the British race start in which he had a share of blame, even though Lewis had the most of it) he’s still at a similar distance to Perez than Hamilton is to Bottas (91pts.) so you really only access a darned world in which not even the WDC standings are the same. I’m starting to pity you rather than loathing, finally.

          4. @rodewulf Sorry man I’m not going to waste my time reading all that drivel

            Are you like a 12 year old kid or something? Stop overreacting to everything.

          5. @f1osaurus

            Sorry man I’m not going to waste my time reading all that drivel

            Are you like a 12 year old kid or something? Stop overreacting to everything.

            I’m trembling with the strength of your arguments, seriously. So much that I don’t even know where to begin to defend myself from your reply filled with enlightened insights lol

          6. @rodewulf Yeah nah, wasting a wall of text to basically say “nuh-uh” is really amazing.

          7. @f1osaurus Will you try to refute my points or not, aren’t you talking like if you were clever? Then prove it. Could you stop whining like your idol and please write something useful? Or else just let this thread die.

          8. @rodewulf Like I said, you taking a million words to say “nuh-uh” isn’t really a point.

            If you actually tried to make a point then maybe I would bother to refute that yes.

          9. @f1osaurus

            Like I said, you taking a million words to say “nuh-uh” isn’t really a point.

            Oh, who you want to deceive? Some audience of lunatic LH44 fans like you? You really don’t know how to refute my points and limit yourself to repeat that the points don’t make sense just to pretend you came out ahead. Old trick of pigeons filling the table with crap. Go out and shout you have the reason, Eppur si muove, it won’t change anything of your argumentative fiasco but at least you’ll feel better.

            If you actually tried to make a point then maybe I would bother to refute that yes.

            Yep, it’s impossible that I’ve written any argument in my entire text that you even didn’t bother to read, much more likely you wrote some when all you said was “You didn’t make any point”. Seems logic, for someone in a bad trip.

          10. @rodewulf You didn’t make “a point”. What on earth do you want me to refute?

            If you want me to refute, nuh-uh then I would counter that with yeah-uh.

    2. And even that metric ist flawed due to q1, q2, and q3.
      If two teammates are, lets say, 0.05 secondes apart and one makes it into q2 and the other one just misses out the gap is likely to become bigger due to track evolution.

  8. Don’t mention anything about decline.

    1. Indeed. We want things to be kept on the up and up.

  9. Just curious, and have been unable to find out. Have McLaren replaced Ricciardo’s chassis at any point this year?

    Ocon received a new chassis with Alpine and didn’t that work out great for him! (winky face)

    I’m also reminded of Vettel in Spain and Monaco 2010. Curiously off the pace of Webber and unable to pinpoint what was wrong. He just didn’t feel quite comfortable with the car, just like Ricciardo now. Allegedly there may have been a hairline fracture somewhere in his chassis and the chassis change saw him back on the pace.

    Obviously it’s hard to know the specific issues Ricciardo is having, but I haven’t heard of them trying a different chassis. Surely at this point it’s worth a shot?

    There. I solved Ricciardo’s problem from right here on my couch. You’re welcome, McLaren :)

    1. Jonathan Parkin
      17th August 2021, 5:11

      In his autobiography Webber states that Christian Horner told Vettel he had a cracked chassis because he didn’t like being beaten by him at the time, he couldn’t handle it. So the cracked chassis was a lie he was told because he would accept it better

      1. I remember something like that about Mika Hakkinen from McLaren too. They just told him it was fixed and he didn’t notice nothing had changed and the boost in confidence let him drive the car properly again.

    2. Besides cost, i can’t see any harm in trying a change in chassis, it might help with confidence

      Had a look and from what i gather the problem for RIC is all to do with driving style + confidence in the car, i saw an article which quoted the strategy director, Andrea Stella saying the RIC “came from the opposite end in terms of how you would like to drive an F1 car” … “our car requires special adaption… its no secret that our car is good in high speed corners and may not be the best when you have to roll speed in mid-corner” and I’ve heard RIC naturally likes to ride the brake through the corner more so I can kinda see him and the car not being naturally compatible if thats the case, especially if the backend feels a little too loose for him.

      Just have to see if he can finally adapt to help challenge Ferrari

    3. As far as I know, teams switch chassises around quite often during the year, and I think it is likely that both Ricciardo and Norris have races several cars. Could well be that both have used the same chassis at different times during the year already Ace, @zakfsim Johnatan.

      Teams tend to have about 6 chassis they use, which will be regularly switched out, repaired, repainted etc. due to travel schedules etc.

  10. I think we’re at the point now where we have to say that the gap Norris has on Ricciardo isn‘t just down to Ric being new to the team, car, and engine. Hulkenberg wasn‘t beating Ricciardo this badly this regularly when Ric started at Renault. The fact is that Norris is proving to be an outstanding talent who is hellaciously quick, particularly over a single lap; and he sets a standard that is going to be very hard for Ricciardo to best even when he’s comfortable with the car, if he even can.

    I think there‘s a tendency to overestimate Ricciardo because of the way he beat Vettel in 2014 and scored some scrappy wins largely because of instances of misfortune or self-inflicted pain of Mercedes. It pretty much became obvious by mid-2017 that Max is a much quicker driver with tenths in hand; and let’s not forget that Ric got beaten by Kvyat over a season in points when they were teammates, something that Sainz and Gasly never had happen to them as teammates of his. I‘ve always thought that Ricciardo is a very good, Smart driver with strong race craft, but I wouldn‘t consider him to be in the top echelon or even in the top-5 among current drivers.

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