“Follow Fernando’s line” – How Red Bull tried everything to get Perez past Alonso

33 comments on ““Follow Fernando’s line” – How Red Bull tried everything to get Perez past Alonso”

1. 

   frood19 (@frood19)
   9th November 2023, 7:25

   On the channel 4 commentary they suggested Perez was so vulnerable after he finally got by because he had probably emptied the battery. I wonder if some of the advice he got was a bit unhelpful in this regard. It sounds like it was a great battle – they only showed about 3 laps of it in the highlights… Bring back freetoair coverage, please!
2. 

   Zann (@zann)
   9th November 2023, 8:03

   if you look on F1tempo, lap 57 for example, you can see it was between T2 and T3 that was the big thing Fernando was doing, gaining time on full power and energy so he came onto the back straight out of range. Gained .59 on that lap, and the next. I don’t think Checo ever worked it out, or even his RE, tho we could see it on TV
   1. 

      Facts&Stats
      9th November 2023, 8:36

      Thank you, that’s a great site.
      https://www.f1-tempo.com/
      1. 

         Zann (@zann)
         9th November 2023, 8:49

         it is isn’t it. And then, if you add in Max’s lap, his throttle is much like Fernando’s than Checo’s
         1. 

            pietje
            9th November 2023, 18:11

            that site confirms something i’ve been afraid of.

            Redbull is not using the engine as alpha tauri is. Much higher rpm’s for alpha’s, so they really ARE sandbagging.

            (check TSU’s fastest lap & compare with CHE of VER’s fastest lap..)

            So next year its When needed a bit more power, tuning up the engine a bit more & let them close up until we need more..
            1. 

               Esploratore (@esploratore1)
               9th November 2023, 21:40

               The car was after all able to win all races but singapore, and it did, so there’s no diminishing its dominance, no matter how much some people try to make us believe it’s less dominant than the mercs.
            2. 

               Jordi Casademunt (@casjo)
               9th November 2023, 22:52

               Comparing Tsunoda’s lap 64 with Verstappen’s lap 68 I can’t see any significant difference.

               Through turn 4 Verstappen has higher RPMs because he’s actually going faster, then through turns 6 and 7 Tsunoda’s RPMs are higher because he goes 1 and even 2 gears lower than Verstappen (downshifts quickly from 7th to 5th, whereas Verstappen stays on 7th for longer, then on 6th until turn 8 where he goes all the way to 3rd).

               On the exit of turn 9 Verstappen upshifts into 4th earlier than Tsunoda due to a higher exit speed.

               Finally, for turn 12 Tsunoda starts downshifting earlier and goes down to 3rd while Verstappen stays on 4th.

               The RPM differences between the 2 seem to be accounted by a difference in speed or being in different gears. When the speed and gear matches, RPM seems to be within a very small margin. So I can’t really see any sandbagging from that.
            3. 

               Nick T.
               10th November 2023, 5:57

               @casjo FTW

               …but, yeah, Max could probably have finished 45 seconds of Lando if he had wanted.
            4. 

               Nick T:
               10th November 2023, 5:58

               45 seconds ahead*
3. 

   Asd
   9th November 2023, 8:14

   This makes me wonder if the hybrid system promotes on track racing or rather restrains it. It seems to me that drivers now are forced to be passive for extended periods of time just to charge their batteries, then race for a bit, and then repeat the cycle.
   Am I wrong here?
   1. 

      Zann (@zann)
      9th November 2023, 8:28

      it’d be interesting if we could see it, how the attacking car tries to get out of phase, having the victim use up his then pouncing. The live timing is so primitive atm, that’s be the place to have it. Same with tyre temperatures. We all have at least two screens to watch with, it’s an opportunity
      1. 

         S
         9th November 2023, 9:51

         This makes me wonder if the hybrid system promotes on track racing or rather restrains it.

         Both – but the real problem is that the teams tell the drivers when and how to use it. If it were left solely to the drivers, it’d be a lot more organic and interesting.

         The live timing is so primitive atm

         Understandable that you’d say that, but at the same time I’d argue the opposite.
         The less you get told, the more there is to experience for yourself. A bit of surprise in sport never did any harm – but taking that element of surprise away certainly does.

         We all have at least two screens to watch with

         Do we..?
   2. 

      MichaelN
      9th November 2023, 20:09

      Depends on how one defines ‘extended’. The current regulations specify that the cars have a 4 MJ battery (or rather, it’s a 4 MJ delta but the number is the important part). It can recharge 2 MJ per lap from the MGU-K, and an unlimited amount from the MGU-H. As you note, it’s clear from the way drivers sometimes have to charge their batteries that this is not a system that can power the 150 kW motor continuously for maximum deployment at all times.

      In 2026, the 4 MJ battery will have to power a 350 kW motor, and as this is a much more powerful motor, and the MGU-H will also be scrapped, the MGU-K will then be allowed to charge the battery by up to 9 MJ per lap (so over two full charges). And to prevent the new motor from depleting the battery too fast, the output has been capped linear to the speed of the car; although the specific formula means it is only relevant above 300 km/h. From 340 km/h and up, it’ll be limited to the same 150 kW as today.

      It’s hard to say how this will really work, because while one can do the calculations, the new moving aerodynamics should get the cars to top speeds faster and it’s hard to say for sure how much deployment there will be with the 2026 cars. I guess we’ll see.
4. 

   UNeedAFinn2Win (@uneedafinn2win)
   9th November 2023, 9:48

   I hate that detailed level of driver coaching. I remember it was banned a few years ago, or at least it was talked about
   1. 

      S
      9th November 2023, 10:05

      Driving alone and unaided will never again be a reality in F1, having died out with the introduction of radio and live data telemetry. It’s just a bunch of words in the sporting regs to be deliberately ignored and forgotten about.

      The 2016 ban you speak of wasn’t really a ban on coaching – it was merely a ban on using specific words and phrases. So naturally the teams simply adopted thinly-veiled codes to say exactly the same things to the drivers, while making everyone look utterly silly in the process.
      They did it so poorly that it was rescinded almost immediately and F1 returned to its usual open-slather – under the excuse that it was too hard to police.

      That sounds exactly like F1, doesn’t it.
   2. 

      Esploratore (@esploratore1)
      9th November 2023, 10:50

      Oh, yes, was indeed banned, I remember some occasion in 2016 where rosberg risked to retire due to some gearbox problem and the engineer gave him some not-allowed instructions to fix the problem, he didn’t retired but got some time penalty.
      1. 

         Nick T.
         9th November 2023, 11:42

         That was an example of it being stupidly restrictive and resulted in a huge backlash that saw it get tossed out. I’d prefer the engineers not be able to tell which corners they can take directly for speed. Stuff like lift and coast and tire management is fine, telling them they need to pull out of hot air, even braking bias is fine. To simplify it the most, just no info on where their teammate is faster and suggestions on different lines being the only restriction.
   3. 

      Esploratore (@esploratore1)
      9th November 2023, 10:51

      didn’t retire*
   4. 

      pastaman
      9th November 2023, 13:18

      I don’t mind, it’s a team sport. Driver still needs to execute
   5. 

      AlanD
      9th November 2023, 18:24

      As I was reading the article, I was wondering if there was still a rule in the rule book saying “drivers must drive the car alone and unaided”. In the debte about sprint races, drivers say they don’t need more than one practice session, but maybe they should be spending that time learning alternate lines through corners etc so that they don’t need in-race coaching.
   6. 

      baasbas
      9th November 2023, 19:04

      @uneedafinn2win
      very much agreed
5. 

   Lewisham Milton
   9th November 2023, 10:09

   Should have used Mode 11!
6. 

   GechiChan (@gechichan)
   9th November 2023, 10:10

   Perez overdefended on the last lap coming into turn 1. He didn’t really need to go on the middle of the track and get so compromised into the Senna esses, which was made even worse by his battery depletion from the lap before. Just a lack of skill ultimately and caving under a bit of pressure.
   1. 

      Keith Campbell (@keithedin)
      9th November 2023, 11:27

      @gechichan It’s funny, isn’t it? If Alonso had done that on any of the preceding laps, Checo would have passed him into turn 4 and the battle would have been over. But Checo panicked a bit and thought the only way he could be passed was a divebomb into turn 1, so he played it too safe and gave Alonso the run into turn 4 instead.
7. 

   Coventry Climax
   9th November 2023, 10:28

   Where Max usually manages to go by in a first, unexpected move, Perez is fiddling about lap after lap, trying the exact same thing over and over again. And remember the car is basically the same, as Perez himself has admitted to.
   Apparently, he needs to be told by his RE about what to do to get by.
   That’s not my definition of a racing driver.

   Would be interesting to compare some overtake situation pitwall conversations between Verstappen and Perez.
   I doubt Verstappen needs much coaching in similar situations.

   Let me paraphrase one annoying poster (don’t care to remember his/her name) that we haven’t heard of much lately; “Perez out!”
   1. 

      Nick T.
      9th November 2023, 12:00

      Alonso, Hamilton and Verstappen have really shown the difference between champions and aspiring champions. Their speed, consistency (speed and lack of mistakes) and race management have all been superior. For Lewis (38) + Fernando (42), this is also in spite of their age.

      It’s why all three were the most consistent scorers of the season. At the summer break, Max, Lewis and Fernando were the only drivers who had scored in every race. Fernando was the only driver going into Austin to reach Q3 in every quali before that awful upgrade ended it. As we see with Lewis, he can reach the highs more regularly and with more margin for error. And Max was doing absolutely everything right and winning almost everything.

      We’re lucky to have all three on the grid at the same time. And with a good cast of aspirants hungry to prove themselves. It’s a shame all three can be in similarly matched cars and we have this generation of land ships too.
   2. 

      Edvaldo
      9th November 2023, 17:49

      This reminds me a lot of Suzuka 2013. Grosjean got the lead and Vettel and Webber followed.

      Webber had a better strategy actually, and had faster tyres on the last stint, so he could attack Vettel.

      But both had to pass Grosjean first, if they wanted to win.

      Vettel took a lap and a half, something like that. Webber took at least 5, can’t remember now, and by the time he was done, so were his tyres.

      And Vettel won, obviously.
   3. 

      Frank
      9th November 2023, 21:33

      Where Max usually manages to go by in a first, unexpected move

      Yet, I do not consider that his most impressive skill. Drivers have basically stopped to defend against (clearly) faster cars in the DRS era. If there is nothing left to loose, or something to gain for a team mate or if they do not need to compromise their lap time in defense, they may put up a fight, but in most cases there is hardly even a token defense.

      Yes, he is forceful and bullish and confident, but there is hardly any resistance at all. It is actually a bit of a prisoner dilemma. It would be better for the group if everyone resisted fiercely, but for each individual there is a lot to gain by not defending, especially when all the others are.
      1. 

         Coventry Climax
         10th November 2023, 0:20

         Yet, I do not consider that his most impressive skill.

         That’s OK, as an opinion, and as long as you’re aware I never said any such thing.

         Even if your observation is true, for a large part, there are still times where there is resistance. And even then, Verstappen usually gets the job done very quickly, where Perez generally struggles.
         You may perceive that as ‘forceful and bullish’, I perceive it as cunning and decisive. On the ‘confident’ we can agree. Where Perez’ attempts frequently end in tears, Verstappen generally just gets by.
         1. 

            Nick T.
            10th November 2023, 5:52

            You whispered it softly in my ear last night. Yes-oh-yes, you said it.
      2. 

         Edvaldo
         10th November 2023, 13:21

         Drivers have basically stopped to defend against (clearly) faster cars in the DRS era. If there is nothing left to loose, or something to gain for a team mate or if they do not need to compromise their lap time in defense, they may put up a fight, but in most cases there is hardly even a token defense.

         You just described Lando Norris. The most irritating driver of the grid.
         See Max in the rear mirror, moves out of the way. Then see Hamilton or Alonso, prepares to die fighting if necessary.

         So annoying.
8. 

   Sonny Crockett (@sonnycrockett)
   9th November 2023, 22:19

   They also said: “Maybe drive a bit like Alonso, or any other half-decent driver… you complete waste of an F1 seat.”
   1. 

      Nick T.
      10th November 2023, 5:53

      This made me laugh so hard I wheezed.

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