The FIA is coming down harder on track limits breaches in junior series but Formula 1 drivers say a 10-second base penalty for infringements is too harsh.
Last weekend in Bahrain, Formula 2 and Formula 3 drivers received 10-second penalties for offences such as leaving the track and gaining a lasting advantage. This infraction typically resulted in five-second time penalties in previous years in those series and in F1. No similar infringements occured during last week’s grand prix.Drivers who exceed track limits a total of five times also previously received five-second penalties. Charles Leclerc said increasing the standard penalty from five seconds to 10 “sounds quite harsh.”
“I think the main priority should be in fixing or helping us at least respecting those track limits better because at the moment the way the white lines are we don’t really see it,” said Leclerc. “I felt like five seconds was quite painful already. Ten seconds is, in my opinion, too much.”
Leclerc’s Mercedes rival George Russell agrees that the lack of visibility in modern Formula 1 cars makes being able to judge the limits of the circuit very difficult at times.
“It’s difficult to really comprehend from a television how difficult it is from within the car,” he said.
“You’re sat so low, you only see the top 15 centimetres of your tyres and the cars are running 70 millimetres from the ground or whatever they are – even less at the end of a straight – so we need a kerb that we can feel and ultimately some tracks we go to there are no track limit issues whatsoever.”
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He pointed out that the majority of track limits violations happen at a small number of circuits with particularly combinations of corners and run-off areas.
However, Haas driver Nico Hulkenberg argued that the more severe penalty could help to reduce track limits infringements by acting as a deterrent.
“It is true that it is difficult to see, but I think we do have a feel,” he said. “Some tracks are better than others, but I think that would force us to be more careful, for sure. So why not?”
Aston Martin driver Lance Stroll said that the problem of track limits could be reduced by providing more natural deterrents on the exits and outsides of corners, rather than asphalt run off.
“We’re all pushing and all trying to stay in the track limits,” Stroll said. “I think some of the bigger issues are actually how the track limits situation is.
“At a lot of the tracks we go to, I think if we change the actual nature of a lot of the tracks and make it a little bit easier to stay in the track limits, but also just maybe more penalising if you go off the track limits – gravel, grass – we’d have less of these issues in the first place.”
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cdfemke (@cdfemke)
7th March 2024, 7:33
Gravel and grass also wlrks well for drainage, so no need for the damaging drain vobers coming loose
SjaakFoo (@sjaakfoo)
7th March 2024, 7:42
Honestly. This has been covered so much it’s getting pretty annoying ngl. Everybody knows by now that there’s practical and economical reasons why track (have to) use paved run-off’s and low kerbs. It’s time to stop going on about it.
Tristan
7th March 2024, 7:47
Economic reasons are a joke, everyone involved in F1 is making enough money right now. I’d like to see some investment in surface R&D, there’s likely is some kind of surface that would either slow down the cars, or cause enough tyre degradation to make running wide have a natural penalty.
I don’t think any work has been done on this, or at least nothing tested. Which is surprising.
S
7th March 2024, 8:14
F1 don’t own the tracks, Tristan. How much money ‘F1 has’ is totally irrelevant.
Gravel is imperfect as cars can skip over the top and not slow down, or dig in and roll. Neither are great outcomes.
Grass provides next to no friction when it is wet, and is easily dug out in the dry (creating a hole) which is a major safety concern.
Tarmac doesn’t stop a car very well when the tyres aren’t taking the load, but at least provides friction in all conditions to slow them down before they get to the wall.
Beyond that, surfaces simply get more expensive to source, install and maintain, and may not provide any significant improvements anyway.
The ultimate (and only real) solution is for the competitors to respect and obey the rules – for both safety and sporting reasons, and not just for themselves but for each other. Everything outside the white lines is there to limit the consequences for going off the track – not for going faster or for having more fun.
Matthijs (@matthijs)
7th March 2024, 9:46
I think what is meant is that the economical reasons are beyond F1. For instance, when the circuit is used for club racing, it is much cheaper for both car owner as organisation when a spinning car can continue the race (instead of being beached in the gravel or damaged).
someone or something
7th March 2024, 9:49
Missing the point. A race track’s bread and butter isn’t F1, it’s rich people taking out their sports cars for a spin. And they hate damaging their cars by going slightly off-track, so a circuit that has that kind of punishment attracts fewer paying customers.
notagrumpyfan
7th March 2024, 10:22
If Melbourne can place and remove gravel every year, than it should not be an issue for a permanent track to do the same.
And there are easy electronic solutions to replicate the impact of gravel when leaving the track with tarmac run-offs (similar to your steering wheel vibrating when crossing the white line even when there are no rumble strips).
S
7th March 2024, 10:28
Melbourne’s track is created within parklands that can easily be blocked off for months at a time. The costs for that time and work are also mostly covered by taxpayers.
Many permanent circuits would go broke being closed for weeks, never mind months.
someone or something
7th March 2024, 13:27
Melbourne is not a permanent racetrack, everything has to be placed and removed yearly. Is that financially sustainable? Haas no. The state of Victoria sinks unspeakable sums of money into the race every year. Melbourne is not a role model, it’s an outlier.
Please no. Just because you could, doesn’t mean that you should.
Patrick
7th March 2024, 14:45
Sorry..accidentally hit the report button☹️
Tristan
7th March 2024, 7:43
I’m not even sure gravel would work any good with ground effect, anyone know? Wouldn’t it suck up the gravel like a vacuum cleaner?
MacLeod (@macleod)
7th March 2024, 8:09
Those gravel stones are very big and just outside the track. A F1 car can get it wheels on the gravel slowing the car down but a driver would try to just not go over the gravel which they can hear.
So no stones will be coming near the underside (except when they go off) so it should be fine.
grat
7th March 2024, 15:00
So an F1 car can pull a drain cover out of it’s concrete mooring, but you think it won’t pull up rocks?
Really?
Jere (@jerejj)
7th March 2024, 7:44
10-sec wouldn’t necessarily have to become a standard but simply an alternative for more severe instances for which the standard 5-sec penalty would prove ineffective.
Jeanrien (@jeanrien)
7th March 2024, 14:19
Honestly 5 sec to cut the track to overtake is a joke. So it better be evaluated in the context.
That said an automated system to detect offense or deterrent to go off track should also be on the list.
BasCB (@bascb)
7th March 2024, 22:48
Yeah, it’s clear that the 5 second thing is often not a serious enough deterrent to have teams get their driver to keep to the track limits.
Now, I am all for finding better ways to keep drivers adhering to the track limits – but I also think that 1. they’ve been thinking about ways to do it with tracks now for so long, and it seems there is no simple, cheap and safe way to satisfy all demands made on a track and 2. if it were felt by teams as hurting them enough, I am sure that they would find ways to make sure the drivers have an easier job, but why would they care currently when in most instances it can just easily be solved by driving a tad faster for a few laps to make up the 5 seconds.
S
7th March 2024, 7:46
Here’s hoping the FIA stop listening to the drivers about this.
Except Hulkenberg – he seems to know what sports are about.
It’s gone well past time the drivers stated to respect and obey the rules – even when they don’t like them.
Slowing down to leave some margin is always an option….
EffWunFan (@cairnsfella)
7th March 2024, 8:33
Harsh…… but fair in my opinion.
If it were a wall, the penalty for hitting it would also be harsh in many cases. Broken suspension for missing your line by a few cm’s. Arguably much harsher than ten seconds.
Not that these things haven’t been stated numerous times before.
George (@feral)
7th March 2024, 8:42
When I started following F1 in 1959 the punishment for going off track was much harsher, often a fatality!
Just a thought, going off track is supposed to be an unfair advantage but that only applies if only one or a few are doing it.
If there was no Track limits everyone would do it so no one would gain an advantage. Problem solved.
S
7th March 2024, 9:38
And the ‘punishments’ would resemble those of back in 1959….
Mooph
7th March 2024, 8:47
I woudl like to see a different type of penalty which can be done on track, bit like a penalty loop or penalty corner, where a (probably problematic) line is marked on the outside corner away from the apex which a driver who has exceeded track limits (not while overtaking) should be forced to drive through on the following lap. thus extending the distance and lap time of the next lap. in theory its low cost and relativley simple to police. depending on the circuit and corner the penalty may vary slightly, but i think something like this was used in FE for ativating the boost or something.
DavidDesu
7th March 2024, 10:34
Honestly LOVE this idea.
Or you could simply have a ”lane” marked on the main straight (likely up against the pit wall) where cars have to slow like the pit lane limiter but nowhere near as severe. At certain tracks I guess this could all be viewed as potentially dangerous however which is likely why it won’t happen, but I like the thought of it.
Asd
7th March 2024, 10:45
Mooph and DavidDesu, this already is used in MotoGP. Watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FccbfmkPkGA
And yes, it’s a fantastic!
Tristan
7th March 2024, 12:34
Yup, it was mentioned by Brawn also when he first took up his role with Liberty as something to explore. But nothing ever came of it. Something like a slow lane penalty.
chimaera2003 (@chimaera2003)
7th March 2024, 23:13
Penalty loops and corners are awkward as they often have to be on the outside of turns. Meaning that you have cars going slowly through run off areas.
I’ve always advocated limiting ERS harvesting for the next lap to then prevent full deployment the lap after. Ylu could then introduce a ratchetijg system for persistent offenders. This would artificially slow down the car without necessarily placing drivers in danger on the outside of corners. The implicit delay in the penalty (reduce harvesting first) means that the driver behind will be aware of the ‘punishment’ and can act accordingly.
Sham (@sham)
7th March 2024, 8:50
I thoroughly disagree with the drivers. If you can’t keep the car between the white lines, you have no place driving at what is supposed to be the pinnacle.
You’re already allowed three “mistakes” before getting a penalty. Do better.
Asd
7th March 2024, 10:47
F1 is the pinnacle of engineering, not of driving skills.
Tristan
7th March 2024, 12:35
Ooft, that’s just mean!
Yellow Baron
7th March 2024, 13:20
This comment makes no sense at all. Drivers are forced to keep it in between the white lines in monaco yet they hit the walls still, they brush them, they glance them, they whack them and they crash heavily into them. The point being that a solid wall is not enough to deter a driver from going over a white line so everyone ought to stop being constipated and get over themselves.
The track limits could be defined by planets and moons and the drivers would still transgress
This track limits epidemic is a manufactured epidemic. Both physically and in discourse. Wether intentional or not. It’s been a few years now and it got very boring and repetitive after a couple. Let’s drop the charade now so that we don’t hear “track limits” several hundred or even a thousand times during a weekend.
People got bored and probably liberty went with it for extra bs so it became a more substantial issues around 2019. Most people didn’t care much before that. Even back to 2003.
Fair play from fom or FIA if they allowed this boring discourse to become so loud (or maybe they’re just incompetent) because it helps F1 reach it’s numbers when the racing is boring they get to have an extra element of track limits to chat about.
They really wanted it fixed they would have added physical deterrents the slow a driver down and left it at that no policing garbage. Just move on but here we are
Drop it now otherwise let’s just confess that the racing and tyres are so off pinnacle that that’s all we have to talk about.
#tRAcKLimItS
Yes (@come-on-kubica)
7th March 2024, 8:55
Well as long they upgrade punting people off with a drive through again. Since the 5 second and 10 second penalties have been introduced the driving standards have dived.
Roy Beedrill
7th March 2024, 9:20
Dear F1 drivers, “severe” track limits penalties is the thing in places like Monaco. Just drive within the white lines.
MichaelN
7th March 2024, 9:38
They’re pretending like there aren’t any kerbs to help them feel the edge. Yet the corners with the most offenses never kerbs as sue as the cars and they still go wide. This isn’t a visibility issue, it’s a risk vs reward issue. The FIA just increased the risk, now the drivers need to get on with it.
Drivers are not neutral experts; their complaints about sporting matters should be treated as suspect at best, and probably just ignored.
Olivier
7th March 2024, 9:38
In football and tennis there is no such discussion. Why would F1 be the exception?
Track limits are there to be respected. It is what adds to the character and challenge of the circuit.
MichaelN
7th March 2024, 11:51
Because in F1 the players are the boss, not the governing body.
Yellow Baron
7th March 2024, 12:43
Because tennis balls and footballs aren’t 800kg heaps of mass that move at 200 mph on the limits of grip lol. When you add car park race track perimeters without an additionally added physical deterrent, then naturally you will have this issue.
I think the whole thing is stupid anyway.
The track limits epidemic is a manufactured epididemic. Both physically and in discourse. It’s been a few years now and it got very boring and repetitive after a couple. Let’s drop the charade now so that we don’t hear “track limits” several hundred or even a thousand times during a weekend.
People got bored and probably liberty went with it for extra bs so it became a more substantial issues around 2019. Most people didn’t care much before that. Even back to 2003.
Drop it now otherwise let’s just confess that the racing and tyres are so off pinnacle that that’s all we have to talk about.
MichaelN
7th March 2024, 9:39
That is: have kerbs as wide as the 2 meter (!) wide cars.
Thanks autocorrect.
DB-C90 (@dbradock)
7th March 2024, 10:41
Of course the drivers don’t like the idea.
Answer is simple enough for their visibility problem. Tech Pro barrier would be visible easy enough and the penalty wouldn’t even have to be applied by stewards.
S
7th March 2024, 11:01
Would you like lots of SC or at least VSC periods to keep putting them back in the right place?
Also, are you willing to pay for all these additional barriers?
DB-C90 (@dbradock)
8th March 2024, 2:12
Only if they hit them. Teams tend to frown upon their drivers hitting barriers so I wouldn’t be expecting a huge increase in Safety Cars after an event or two.
As for expense, it’s not as if FOM or the promoters are short of $ and would it be any less expensive than changing the kerbs to make them more visible/tactile for the drivers.
S
8th March 2024, 3:03
They wouldn’t intentionally smash into them, of course – but they do rub them just enough to push them ever wider. It’s been done in other racing series (including open-wheelers) and has failed miserably, as it only takes a couple of minor touches to ‘widen the track’ – thus making them completely ineffective for the intended purpose.
In order for the idea to work, they need to be in a specific place – which means pausing the racing and putting them back in place. Often.
As for the money – see above. F1/FIA/FOM don’t own or pay for anything at the track. They expect the circuit/promoter to fund it – at that equates directly to either higher ticket prices or a financially unviable event.
Changing the kerbs is done very rarely, and they last in that specification for a long time. Plastic TECPRO’s, however, are disposable consumables that cost quite a bit of money to replace. It can take just one minor impact to render it no longer certified as fit for purpose.
Oh, and kerbs are tactile anyway. Especially in such a stiffly sprung race car – and they feel them almost 2 whole meters in width before they exceed the track limit. Visibility I think can’t be argued – they are painted in bright colours on a dark grey background. Driver can sit higher in the cars if they want to see more.
Nulla Pax (@nullapax)
7th March 2024, 11:17
They can stay on track at Monaco etc and we all admire them for their skill at not hitting the walls there.
Unfortunately, like ALL sportspeople, they will cheat if they think they can get away with it or the penalty isn’t going to hurt them.
I love Mooph’s idea above of an extra bit of track that has to be used within a few laps to extend the lap as a penalty.
Or how about a 5second penalty with 1 second then added each lap until it is cleared by pitting?
Let the team decide how far they dare push it ;)
Yellow Baron
7th March 2024, 13:05
The proof is in your pudding. They actually do hit the walls in Monaco, they brush them, they glance them, they whack them and they crash heavily into them. The point being that a solid wall is not enough to deter a driver from going over a white line so everyone ought to stop being constipated and get over themselves.
The track limits could be defined by planets and moons and the drivers would still transgress
This track limits epidemic is a manufactured epidemic. Both physically and in discourse. Wether intentional or not. It’s been a few years now and it got very boring and repetitive after a couple. Let’s drop the charade now so that we don’t hear “track limits” several hundred or even a thousand times during a weekend.
People got bored and probably liberty went with it for extra bs so it became a more substantial issues around 2019. Most people didn’t care much before that. Even back to 2003.
Drop it now otherwise let’s just confess that the racing and tyres are so off pinnacle that that’s all we have to talk about.
Nulla Pax (@nullapax)
7th March 2024, 14:16
If they went offline at Monaco like they do elsewhere they would all be dead.
Yellow Baron
8th March 2024, 7:56
You missed the point. The do go off the line. Read again
Yellow Baron
7th March 2024, 13:17
This comment makes no sense at all. Drivers are forced to keep it in between the white lines in monaco yet they hit the walls still, they brush them, they glance them, they whack them and they crash heavily into them. The point being that a solid wall is not enough to deter a driver from going over a white line so everyone ought to stop being constipated and get over themselves.
The track limits could be defined by planets and moons and the drivers would still transgress
This track limits epidemic is a manufactured epidemic. Both physically and in discourse. Wether intentional or not. It’s been a few years now and it got very boring and repetitive after a couple. Let’s drop the charade now so that we don’t hear “track limits” several hundred or even a thousand times during a weekend.
People got bored and probably liberty went with it for extra bs so it became a more substantial issues around 2019. Most people didn’t care much before that. Even back to 2003.
Fair play from fom or FIA if they allowed this boring discourse to become so loud (or maybe they’re just incompetent) because it helps F1 reach it’s numbers when the racing is boring they get to have an extra element of track limits to chat about.
Drop it now otherwise let’s just confess that the racing and tyres are so off pinnacle that that’s all we have to talk about.
#tRAcKLimItS
Asd
7th March 2024, 14:12
Absolutely agreed!
It’s stupid and exhausting. And I’m disgusted with all those silly video-game ideas of controlling car location with sensors etc.
If you have a track with fully asphalted run-off areas, then just place at every outside arch of a turn a strip of surface that either makes the car lose grip or makes it damaged. Make the drivers deal with physical reality and not with virtual conventions. And that’s it. No arbitration needed.
X1Znet (@x1znet)
7th March 2024, 14:36
Existing penalties for track limits are obviously not harsh enough and are not a deterrent as drivers continue to abuse the track limits.
Another option might be to put super abrasive tarmac on the edge of the white lines that will destroy the tires and require an immediate pitstop.
grat
7th March 2024, 15:01
Let’s just mount tasers in the car, and shock the living hell out of the driver every time they go over track limits.
Runoffs are for pansies.
ADUB SMALLBLOCK (@waptraveler)
7th March 2024, 18:29
Saying that it is only a problem on some tracks, and saying you can’t “see the lines” just means they want to get the last 3 inches, as in getting very close to the wall. In those cases they need to be more conservative in their racing line to avoid a “harsh” penalty. These drivers have amazing skill and can place their cars with amazing precision.
Rhys Lloyd (@justrhysism)
8th March 2024, 2:32
Well there you go, I actually agree with Sir Lancelot on something. Better check for flying pigs.