Michael Schumacher vs Giuseppe Farina

Champion of champions

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The first round in the Champion of Champions pairs up the sport’s most prolific title winner, Michael Schumacher, with the original world champion, Giuseppe Farina.

On the face of it the pair seem to have little in common. These are both drivers that sometimes drew criticism from their peers for their driving, particularly their defensive moves.

But while Farina claimed the first ever world championship for Alfa Romeo in 1950 the following year his team mate Juan Manuel Fangio turned the tables on him.

That’s something that rarely happened to Schumacher, at least until his 2010 comeback when he partnered Nico Rosberg at Mercedes.

Schumacher is of course best known for his record five consecutive championships while driving for Ferrari. His 180-race stint with the Scuderia is the longest any driver in F1 history has remained with a single team.

Which of these drivers should go through to the next round of the Champion of Champions? Vote for which you think was best below and explain who you voted for and why in the comments.

Michael SchumacherGiuseppe Farina
Titles1994, 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 20041950
Second in title year/sDamon Hill, Damon Hill, Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard, Rubens Barrichello, Kimi R??ikk??nen, Rubens BarrichelloJuan Manuel Fangio
TeamsJordan, Benetton, Ferrari, MercedesAlfa Romeo, Ferrari
Notable team matesNelson Piquet, Eddie Irvine, Rubens BarrichelloJuan Manuel Fangio, Alberto Ascari, Mike Hawthorn
Wins91 (33.96%)5 (15.15%)
Poles68 (25.37%)5 (15.15%)
Modern points per start114.0513.55
% car failures28.2115.15
Modern points per available finish315.3015.96
NotesMissed several races in 1999 after breaking his leg at SilverstoneHad several non-championship Grand Prix successes before 1950
Retired in 2006 after 11 seasons with FerrariBadly burned in a crash at Monza in 1954
Returned with Mercedes in 2010Retired the following season, still suffering from his injuries
BioMichael SchumacherGiuseppe Farina

1 How many points they scored in their career, adjusted to the 2010 points system, divided by the number of races they started
2 The percentage of races in which they were not classified due to a mechanical failure
3 How many points they scored in their career, adjusted to the 2010 points system, divided by the number of starts in which they did not suffer a race-ending mechanical failure

Which was the better world champion driver?

  • Giuseppe Farina (14%)
  • Michael Schumacher (86%)

Total Voters: 711

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Read the F1 Fanatic Champion of Champions introduction for more information and remember to check back tomorrow for the next round.

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Images © Mercedes (Schumacher), uncredited (Farina)

Author information

Keith Collantine
Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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140 comments on “Michael Schumacher vs Giuseppe Farina”

  1. Schumi was best. However, Farina (although for me I’d probably never rate him alongside Schumi) was passed his best by the time the F1 championship started and I feel he was better than he’s usually rated.

    As you’ve kicked off with farina I’ll wander off topic and say that Nuvolari was around Farina’s time and if he was in this I’d rather him higher than Giuseppe and as one of the all time greats but obviously I can’t here :P

    I love this idea though Keith. It should be a great bit of fun in the off season and stir up some good debate and I’m really excited to see the champions go up against each other with their stats! We’ll never have the joy of seeing the past stars race against this generation but this is probably as close as we’ll ever get to seeing how they’d do :)

    1. Yeah, so I’d considered my response for quite some time, an basically you’ve covered it. Pretty much bang on, imma go pick fights with others opinions instead.

    2. I perfectly agree with Steph here on having to choose Schumi before Farina.

      But Farina was a very good driver, just look at his points per available finish. When also taking in account that in 1950 he was a closing a bit of being comparable to Schumi 2010 on age and being on the downturn, he might have been a lot more successfull had the championship started a few years earlier.

    3. There’s no doubt that Farina was brilliant, but it’s hard to pick him ahead of a 7-times World Champion.

    4. How was Schumy partnered with Farina and not someone else? Are the pairs picken randomly?
      Anyway, I’m surprised Farina isn’t far from Schumy.

  2. oooooooo cruel first voting I believe keith.

    1. But i give Schumi the vote, only wish Farina was 10 years younger in his f1 days so he could of done more.

      1. Btw keith shouldn’t Nico Rosberg consider going under notable team mate?

        1. and Felipe?, or are you just keeping it short etc? or title winning team mates?

          1. Felipe was almost champion in 2008, remember? The same position as Rubens at his highest.

          2. Problem is that Felipe and Schumacher werent teammates in 2008.

          3. I suppose Rubens Barricello is notable also for being one of the youngest pole sitters, being with Schumi at Ferrari for a long time (with quite some “memorable” situations) as well as being a driver of over a record 300 GPs.

            Although Massa might be considered noteworthy for being coached by Schumi and coming withing an inch of the 2008 title, he has not broken any records yet.

        2. i’d say Rosberg probably isn’t a notable team mate quite yet as he hasn’t won a race. Massa probably should be though

          1. Schumacher didn’t win a race either this year …

          2. Obviously, we’re referring to career wins, not 2010 wins Patrick.

        3. Nico Rosberg isn’t Schumacher’s notable team mate because Rosberg a) hasn’t achieved anything special b) wasn’t Schumacher’s team mate during Schumacher’s greatest seasons.

  3. Schumacher, no contest. The guy re-defined what it meant to be an F1 driver and even if he did benefit from a ridiculously dominant car for two years and a weak opposition in 2001, you really need to be selective to explain away the other four championships.

    By the way Keith, I didn’t find this on the main page, I had to go through the Polls section, it wasn’t even in the “Champion of Champions Articles” category linked in yesterday’s article. Some kind of mistake? Using Chrome btw.

    1. I’m using Chrome and it appeared right on the front page for me…

      1. It will be something to do with the WordPress Cache I’m assuming. Will just appear after for some people depending on how your browser is calling it.

        Or I may be making everything up…

      2. Minutes later I went on facebook and the update was posted, hey presto it was on here too!

    2. I agree with Icthyes. This is a particularly difficult matchup as well because the two drivers are as far apart as could possibly be in terms of eras. I’d go so far as to say its impossible to compare the two as they are in such stark contrast to each other, but I suppose that criticism can be levelled at any of these matchups.

      As rightly pointed out though by Icthyes, Schumacher defined the modern F1 driver. That may or may not be to the benefit of the sport, but the current grid are modelled after him more than anyone else.

      1. That’s true, because we can’t compare I suppose it’s best to look at them in terms of lasting impact. Still, when it comes down to comparing the lasting impact of say, Fangio and Schumacher, that is where the problems start.

        1. Both well said. It is also a difficult choice because we have so much less data on Farina.

          That is of course the trouble with doing this. Still, it we can do our best. I had to choose Schumacher – although in a way I would have liked a “not enough data to decide” option on Farina.

  4. Archimedas (@)
    1st January 2011, 18:25

    This time Schumi, but all in all Fangio forever!

    1. And the sadest thing is that Juan Manuel was still alive when Ayrton passed away…

      Poor Juan … He had to support the pain of loosing the Brazilian hero of motor racing

      If I weel remember, Juan himself did not consider to be the greatest driver himself but he thought Ayrton deserved that place…

  5. Schumacher, hands down

  6. Haha what a cruel first face-off. Schumacher no doubt.

    1. There are two all-time records where Farina sits ahead of Schumacher.

      Oldest race winner: Farina (46) is 2nd to Fagoli (53).

      Oldest Champion: Farina (43) is 2nd to Fangio (46).

      Schumacher is currently 41 (he turns 42 tomorrow), but hasn’t won a race since 2006 nor a championship since 2004. If he were to win in Bahrain he’d go to 7th on the oldest race winners list. If he continues to 2012 he has a shot of knocking Farina off on the oldest Champion list, but unless his plans change he’s not going to get near him for oldest race winner. Nor is he likely to ever top either list. I’d love to see him do so though. ;)

  7. Voted for Shumi but when the time comes you don’t need to be rocket scientist to figure out who will get my final vote.

  8. No contest, Michael Schumacher. Farina never captured as much attention as Schumacher, when you talk about the greatest Formula One drivers, you never hear a mention for Farina. Even drivers like Stirling Moss and Gilles Villeneuve who never won a championship get mentioned more. When you hear someone talking about Formula One in the ’50s or ’60s, you rarely hear anything on Farina’s championship success. You normally hear about Clark, Moss, Fangio and Ascari.

    1. This is true. You may want to consider that WW2 rather inconveniently occurred during the period in which Farina would have been in his prime though.

  9. My vote goes for Schumacher..

    1. Yep, hard to argue with 7 championships, 12 finishes in the top 3 of a championship (which would have been 13 if not for the DSQ) and 91 race wins.

    2. Schumacher all the way. Apologies to runner up.


  10. 1. Fangio
    2. Schumacher
    3. Prost
    5. Ascari
    6. Clark
    7. Senna
    8. Stewart

    1. What happened to the 4th rank?

      1. I misnumbered them, that’s what happened.
        Ascari is 4th of course, Clark 5th and so on.

    2. Jeffrey Powell
      8th January 2011, 16:19

      Are we talking of Driving ability or team manipulation, If its the later Schumacher should have all the top ten places.

  11. Scumacher is a living legend, I couldnt pick many people over him.

  12. schumacher for sure.
    The only thing that gives farina more value to me, it’s the era he was driving. That era required drivers to have a real chance to die every race, for very little in return.

    1. …for very little in return.

      For the thrill of it.

  13. Farina certainly had better competition than Schumi, beating Fangio is no mean feat. I have to go for Schumacher though, no one else dominated the sport like him.

    1. Well, Fangio did. Fangio did it in that era, 5 straight titles, less races. Every bit Schumachers match for dominance.

      1. I absolutely agree about Fangio’s dominance in his era and he has one stat that even Schumacher can’t touch, he won 47% of the championship races he started in compared to Schumi’s 34%! But he only won 4 straight WDC’s not 5 (1951, 1954-57) and had to sit out 1952 with a broken neck.

      2. 4 straight titles. Ascari won ’52-’53, Hawthorn ’58.

        1. nitpickers. What’s one un-consecutive title in the grand scheme of things?

  14. At the bit where the page splits in two – with Schuamcher’s info on the left, and Farina’s info on the right – I can’t see the Farino stuff at all.

    I’m using the mobile site on an iPod Touch.

    1. The mobile site should just crash and burn in hell. I can’t imagine a single modern phone where the desktop site isn’t better by a mile.

      – And even worse; there is no way to get to the normal site from the mobile site.

      1. It’s not too bad – the commenst display well by taing up the full width of the screen – it’s just pictures are usually cut off (like the one in the title here – and as I say – that piece of information about Farina!

        Also comment replies are out of sync with the comment they are replying too.

        1. I’m aware of these problems and they are being addressed in the next version of the mobile site (as I have said before).

  15. When you convert it to 2010 points, there’s not a lot to choose between them, is there? And since Farina had more mechanical failures, his 13.55 points per start is a very impressive stat.

    However, my vote goes to Schumacher. It’s not easy being at the top for a good 15 seasons especially in the modern era. Plus is it fair to say that for the ’50/’51 seasons the Alfa was nearly as dominant as the ’02/’04 Ferrari? If so then Farina didn’t fight for the championship with a less-than-best car, unlike Schumacher’s first two championships.

    1. Farina did actually have many starts though did he, and Farina went straight into a top team. While Schumacher stats must always be looked at through the prisim of the wilderness years at Ferrari.

  16. Easy choice at this stage! Even if he’s not your favorite and/or you can’t stand him, taking everything at face value and looking at the facts objectively, Schumacher’s got to be at least in the top 5 F1 drivers of all time. Can’t say the same for Farina even if he did beat Fangio.

  17. Like several people have already pointed out, Farina
    was past his prime going into the first chmpionship.

    But I feel that even had he been younger he still would have lost out to fangio and ascari, en for that alone I would vote schumacher….not to mention 7 titles and a dominitaion of the sport that, although it was awe inspiring I personally never hope to see again.

  18. I voted Farina purely because he beat Fangio. Likewise, I’ll vote for Fangio when he comes up and Hakkinen. These sort of giant-killing performances really show a how a driver performs under pressure.

    1. Interesting side-point, Hakkinen was definitely second only to Schumacher in my eyes but he had clearly the best car in 1998 and nearly lost to Eddie Irvine in 1999*, Schumacher would probably have been champion if not for his broken leg. So how do you sqaure that with the “giant-killing” factor?

      Also, Fangio won his titles by making sure he was in the best car, even switching teams mid-season (in 1954, I think). Compare that with the “Schumacher just had the best car for 3 years” argument.

      *Ironically, a team order that prevented Irvine from passing an ailing Schumacher in the French Grand Prix cost Ferrari their first championship in 20 years.

      1. Irvine was only close to Häkkinen, because Mika s technical issues… Remembering Silverstone, Hockenheim or Melbourne? Irvine had a reliable car, that was his main advantage, not his abilities, or pace… Under normal circumstances with no luck involved, Irvine would have finished only 3rd…

  19. Went for Schuy. I have nothing against Farina, says a lot about a driver if Sir Stirling Moss idolised him (and copied his technique) but the War cost him the best days of his driver career (and that F1 didnt exist ofc).

  20. Simply on the basis of 7 championships to 1 it has to be Schumacher. BTW first post, registered to vote champion of champions.

    1. Eh, what about 5 to seven? Or 7 to 3. I don’t like that method, stats, stats and damn lies.

  21. Other than being the first Formula One champion, I knew absolutely nothing about Farina, so I was a bit puzzled with this match-up. I decided to a bit of reading before casting my vote, and a few quotes from his peers were quite telling. One that stood out to me was Fangio describing his driving to be so crazy that only the Virgin Mary could keep Farina on track, and Farina himself would pray gratefully to her after every accident. Farina was definitely an interesting character.

    Based purely on the statistics I voted for Schumacher. I believe that it’s difficult to argue a vote otherwise, as we have to consider only the Formula One careers of each champion.

    This was an interesting first round, and I’m really looking forward to the rest on this series!

    1. Statisticaly, Schumachers numbers beat everyone, but there where other circumstances that lead to such crushing superiority in certain cases. I don’t think we can just use statistics to compare drivers.

      Nice Farina info by the way, I love finding out about the greats whose names arn’t screamed like the rest.

      1. Statistics are an aid to compare drivers, they summarise a lot. They are not the be all and end all. In this case though, you have statistically the greatest driver of all time, the non-statistical arguments are going to have to be very persuasive.

        1. In F1, the problem with stats is they ignore the differance made by the cars, two of Schumachers seasons where always going to be whitewash the car he was driving. Sort of like the RB6 lol, which says more about Vettle than Schuey really. F1 stats are also subject to interferance from other circumstances, like the competition faced by a driver, whatever went on in his team, car failures in front of him etc etc. Like I’ve said a few times in these comments, stats can’t show the full story and don’t. There where lots of things that led to Schueys total dominance of his period, part of that was skill, part of that was circumstance, leading to inflated stats.

          Statistics are an aid to compare drivers, they summarise a lot. They are not the be all and end all.

          Like you say.

  22. My vote goes for Schumi, but I think 4 drivers
    (Ascari, Fangio, Clark and Senna) were still possibly better then him…
    I just wonder why only comparing “champions”, not Grand Prix winners? Sir Stirling Moss with 0 titles (should have won 3 – in 1956, 1958, 1959, if technical issues wouldn t stop him) officially won 16 GP, even more then Sir Jack Brabham, who is a 3 time World champion! So, something is clearly wrong there…

  23. From the outset I will state my belief that Schumacher was the superior driver. However, I fear that Farina’s ability is being almost belittled in a few comments. It must be remembered that Farina (like Fangio) lost his best years to the war and had been extremely successful beforehand, with extreme competition (Varzi, Caracciola, Chiron, Rosemeyer, Kling and of course Nuvolari). Although I must concede that that also adds a further dimension to this debate, as Farina did not have the intense global spotlight as a rookie, as much as in controversial and highly intense championship battles, that Schumacher faced. However, to be able to pull off one championship is impressive regardless of competition but to achieve the same results on a consistent level proves that Schumacher is and will always be remembered as a world class driver over the course of an era.

    I enjoyed a comparison that is rarely drawn as oppose to the continual Senna, Clark, Fangio and Schumacher debate that flourish during “Best Driver Ever” articles.

    1. I enjoyed a comparison that is rarely drawn

      I’m glad – I really wanted to get into that kind of thing with these articles.

      1. I concur. Nice work Keith.

      2. I think you have acheived that beautifully here Keith. Look at Argent above who looked up what Farina was about, it really brings us fans in deeply.
        I myself had read about him before a couple of years ago when looking at the matter of the last European championship (controversy) and then following up on these pre war drivers.

        1. I love reading about the European Championship and the early days of Grand Prix racing: so many heroes – many of whom died young – so many amazing circuits and exploits…

  24. I hate myself for saying so, but I believe Schumacher was the greater driver of the two. Unfortunately my hand slipped and I accidentally voted for Farina, oops, clumsy me!

  25. How you can compare these two drivers is beyond me,chalk and cheese come to mind because the only common denominator is they both won a WDC,or more.

    I can only see a reasonable comparison for any of the champions by either electing teams and decades,ie Ferrari 1950-1960 and its drivers,or Williams 1980-1990 and its drivers,on the face of it if this is how the votes are decided,frankly it means little.

  26. I really hope there wont be a lot of “Schumacher was better but i disliked him so im voiting for the other guy” This is to find the Best driver, not best sportsman otherwise arguably two of the best, Schumi and Senna wont be in it for long.

    Anyway rant over and back to the 1st round. Schumacher takes this at a canter. Seriously challenged for drivers title 11 time. Only Prost comes close with realistic title battles 9. Took the mantel of best driver of the time from Senna, before his death in my opinion and has every record you could want.

    Great idea Keith to fill in the pre season cant wait for the results and debates once the later stages comes up.

    1. Sadly, Piffles went and did exactly what you feared.

      1. In my defense, I didn’t vote. I only commented.

        Furthermore, my dislike for Schumacher is not only emotional, it’s based on facts. The strength of one’s opposition as well as one’s sportsmanship are extremely valid elements in these comparisons.

        1. As I’ve already pointed out, you’re argument regarding strength of competition isn’t valid, since the guy certainly did have to fight for his titles. Saying that Schu “cruised around” certainly isn’t based on fact, it’s based on a willingness to belittle one’s achievements.

        2. And I’m afraid you’re significantly overplaying sportsmanship as an argument for who is a better driver. A nice guy doesn’t necessarily win races. MSC’s few moments of madness are being overused in your posts as well.

          1. I don’t get this Anti Schuey brigade.Anyone would think all the others are a Whiter shade of pale,when in fact all F1 drivers,not only Champions are ruthless in wanting domination,and the obvious final crown.
            You would think that Schuey did something personal to themselves or their families.
            It gets beyond a joke,and how they can call them selves F1 fans is a joke too.

    2. I agree… I don’t intend to vote like that and I really hope others don’t either.

      1. Agreed. Unfortunately some will, and probably already have.

        1. Is there any record of Farina participating in activities similar to those that make people dislike Schumacher? Did Farina pressure his teams to give his team mates inferior equipment? Did he ‘accidentally’ collide with potential championship contenders to take them out of the running? Did he nearly run fellow drivers into the wall?

          Guess we’ll never know. But all of these factors go into what makes a champion in some sense.

          It has been said that such factors helped make Shumacher a champion or characterize the way he drives and they have been used to detract from his achievements.

          To compare drivers we’d need to compare more than just wins and losses but also how these were achieved. This would be the work of a large book or three, not a short blog comment!

    3. I am not too worried about people voting “against” Schumi. But I agree on your statement, that Schumi had taken the mantle of best of his time of Senna. I had the same feeling from the start of that 94 season.

  27. I thought this was going to be about stats? Reading the comments I see how the stats are already replaced by “I think he’s the greatest of all time, therefore …”

    1. No no no no, stats only ever tell half the picture. For instance, IJL Trott is not the second best test batsman of all time, yet he currently has the second best test average. If we wanted to know the best driver by statistics we could wiki it and discouver what we all know already. It’s Schumi. An yet even from the totally objective I don’t think you’d ever find even near unanimous agreement that he’s the greatest ever.

      1. Sure, but try quibbling with anyone who says that Bradman is the best Test batsman of all time based only on his statistics. You can’t can you? Bradman’s average is 50% again better than Trott’s. There are some statistics you just can’t argue with.

        1. Stats only tell half the picture is what I said. Stats are often very misleading, Bradman’s incredible average is somewhat inflated by the era in which he played in, ie quality of the bowling, feilding and the pitches, he was still possibly the greatest batsman ever, but the quality he faced wasn’t nearly what Tandulkar, Lara and Ponting had to deal with. To claim you can’t argue with his stats is ridiculous and narrow minded. (Oh look there’s perfectly decent arguments to be had)

          No statistic tells the whole picture, be it Schumachers 7 titles and win rate, or Bradmans average. In future don’t tell people what they can and can’t argue with, especialy while making baseless assertions.

          1. If it’s so easy to argue with Bradman’s stats why did you go straight to the guy with the second best batting average as an example of stats not telling the whole story?

            Quality of the (mainly English) bowling? Really? You know he averaged 98 in 1st Class cricket too. Were the bowlers in Bradman’s era 50% worse than Trott is facing these days (Bangladesh included)? This was before the super bats they have these days and before they brought the boundaries in too. He still averaged 50 when the English devised a style of bowling designed specifically to counter him. i.e. aiming at his head and body constantly before their were helmets or chest guards. Maybe I should have said that you can’t successfully argue with Bradman’s stats?

          2. Why did I pick Trotts average?
            Because Trott’s average is a very good example of stats not telling the whole story, obviously.

            Well, no, you shouldn’t argue that you can’t successfully argue with Bradmans stats when you’ve done nothing to prove that I can’t. What you’ve done is get into a tizzy while above this post you have even said, an I’ll quote you again:

            Statistics are an aid to compare drivers, they summarise a lot. They are not the be all and end all.

            Really now this is getting silly, this is an F1 site, regardless, i’ll be as silly and finish the point. Bradman played in an era before the true professional sportsman, before professional coaches and the study of technique, before even the best bowlers could approach the consistency of the most average county journeyman. To deny that Bradman faced easier bowling is to deny the bleedin obvious. Regardless of the fact that England developed a plan to bowl to him, (something bowling units do for nearly every specialist batsman in the world nowadays) they wouldn’t have been able to execute it to anywhere near the level an attack like Englands current one might. Again, denying this is blatant obstinacy.

            The fact that Bradmans average was so high shows he was a differant kind of sportman to those around him, an by all acounts he was, training harder on the things that mattered, along with an enourmous natural gift. But to claim his average wasn’t inflated by the undeveloped age he played in? It’s just plain wrong.

            Whatever, my point is as you’ve so eloquently said, stats “are not the be all and end all”, or “statistics statistics and damn lies”. I’m not even sure what your trying to prove now but there are so often other story’s behind stats. Just like with Bradman and Trott, just like with Schumacher and Fangio.

          3. Of course I agree with the things I said.

            I also say, that in Bradman’s case the summary provided by the statistics is so compelling that you can’t successfully argue against them. You haven’t said anything to disprove that.

            My point in bringing that up is that statistics are useful, whereas you seem to want to claim, by your arguments elsewhere in the thread, that they are completely without worth.

            Statistics don’t lie, they just tell part of the truth. The reader needs to determine whether that is the important part. Sometimes it will be sometimes it won’t.

          4. Again, no, the evidence I’ve provided clearly shows why Bradmans stats might be inflated. My evidence is also common knowedgle, not even controversial amongst those with an an ounce of histrorical cricketing knowledge. All you’ve done is discount my evidence, with no logical arguments, evidence or basis of your own. Bradmans stats are indeed compelling, but they don’t tell the whole story is exactly what i’ve been saying from the begining.

            I’ve not once said statistics are without worth, don’t attempt to twist my words, it’s pathetic. What your saying, doesn’t actually disagree with what i’ve said, all over the thread. I can even quote you in support of my early arguments. You seem to be arguing for the sake of it, while not really having any clear basis to attack my position, an recently, essentialy repeating what I’ve said.

            Unless your next post actually contains an argument of worth, not containing the same boring repitition this discussion has decended into internet comments farce and i’ll take no further part in it. Claim whatever you like, I’ll try and be civil if i bump into your comments over the rest of the site.

          5. I’m twisting your words!? You’ve got to be kidding. YOu posted on the front page that now you were going to go and pick fights with others’ opinion and I think that’s all you are doing.

            You’re the one who has ignored the other evidence I gave regarding Bradman’s 1st Class average, and the argument about some of the weaker modern day attacks, or the argument about modern bats and shorter boudaries, and I didn’t even get into uncovered pitches, or the fact that Bradman had to deal with the media to a degree that is probably only matched by players in the last 10 years.

            But you’ve completely missed the point. Even if I believe you and take your argument that Bradman’s average is inflated, how much am I to believe his average is inflated by? This is my point Bradmand is so much better statistically than anyone else that you are on a hiding to nothing to argue that he wasn’t the greatest.

            If you go the the ‘It Figures’ blog on cricinfo you will find a recent article that shows that Bradman is top of the table when batsman are compared to the other batsman they played with in the same team. If the attacks of the time were so weak, how come Bradman’s team-mates didn’t cash in to the same degree? Why is he so much better than them?

            The idea of batting is to make as man y runs as possible without getting at, Bradmans’s stats show he did that better than anyone else in Test history. The idea of racing an F1 car is to win races and Championships. A number of people have done that pretty well, sometimes the stats will be enough for us to differentiate two of them, sometimes they won’t.

  28. Farina.

    He beat Fangio and had some pretty impressive team mates. Schumacher largely just cruised around in front with no real competition. There were no World Champions at all in F1 when he won in 1994 for the first time. After that, only Hakkinen is worth mentionning in the people he beat, the others were just good, reliable, second class drivers. Schumacher also enjoyed a huge car/tyre advantage in his later career.

    Another reason I go for Farina, even though I honestly know very little about him, is that he probably didn’t park his car in the middle of the track in qualifying, intentionally collide with rivals in last chance desperate manoeuvres, or resort to disgraceful team tactics to get his results.

    1. I’m afraid you’ve voted for Farina based on your dislike for Schumacher more than anything else.

      If you actually looked at the statistics, or watched Schumacher’s performance properly between 1992-2006 you would have spotted that he had to beat plenty of good drivers on his way to seven titles. If you got the impression that he had no competition, then that’s what happens when you’re that good- you make the opposition look poor.

      And he only had a significant car advantage in 2002 and 2004, which partially came as a result of the technical staff Schumacher brought to his team and Schumacher’s hard work in testing. You simply can’t take away his unrivalled dedication and determination to win, which led to 15 seasons at (or near) the top.

      He simply was the best of his generation, whereas Farina was mostly outdone by Fangio and Ascari, so won’t rank amongst MSC, Fangio, Ascari, Senna, Clark, Stewart, Alonso or Prost in my eyes.

      1. I’d hesitaite before describing Alonso as simply the best of this generation, partly because it hasn’t finished yet and partly because of 07 and the begining of 10.

        Also your ignoring an awful lot of things about the Schuey dominance years worth mentioning but meh, triffles, he’s still a better driver than Farina, though i’ve never seen Farina drive.

        1. Perhaps you’re right about Alonso.

          But I needed to balance out Piffles’ complete negativity regarding Schumacher with some appreciation for his talent.

          1. I wouldn’t worry about it, not hard to recognise genius if you put your personal feelings aside. I personally couldn’t stand the bloke, thought he was a cheat, if a sensational talent at that.

            Now I’ve warmed to him somewhat it’s easier to ignore Adelaide and Monaco etc and appreciate quite what it was that we saw, along with an understanding that somepeople are just driven to win, I’ve always felt it unfair that the dark side of Senna’s character is downplayed compared to Schumachers when comparisons are made.

  29. Keith, how exactly are we pairing these guys up? Is it random draw, or are we using a system of seeding or some such? My big concern is that one driver is going to have an easy path to victory because he is paired with relatively “easy” to beat drivers, whereas others will be eliminated early when they don’t necessarily deserve to be.

    1. Also, we have a percentage of DNFs brought about by mechanical failure – but what about a percentage of DNFs as a result of driver error?

      1. I considered including that but this would involve appraising every single race-ending incident each driver was involved in and deciding if they were at fault or not. Given the reams of comments that are given over to debating single incidents (think Webber and Hamilton at Singapore this year) I decided to steer clear of that minefield.

    2. are we using a system of seeding or some such?

      Yep, see here: Introducing F1 Fanatic’s Champion of Champions

  30. Hitman Contract
    1st January 2011, 23:59

    My bet is Ayrton Senna will come out first in the end (he always does), even though his sportmanship leaved a lot to be desired. But in terms of driving ability and passion, he was easily the best of the last 40 years.

    I have been watching F1 since the Jackie Stewart days, but I missed Fangio. Maybe he really was the best of all time, but I have seen him only in a few short clips, so I really can’t say (and who can nowadays?)

  31. Schumacher holds every record that are worth anything in F1. He could have won over 10 titles if things had gone differently in only a few races (please, I don’t want to start ww3) and he is by far the only driver to be in that position. He is by far not my favourite driver but he is the best, nobody was even close in terms of results. When I was young everyone spoke of Fangio and ignored drivers like Stewart and Clark who both also have to be up there. Younger generations will vote of Senna even though it will all have been seen retrospectively, he should be up there but he was not without faults that under today’s regulations would have him banned or locked up. Love or loathe him Schumacher is the best. The titles are all that count and he’s at the top of the tree.

    1. nah, don’t buy it. There’s more to life than titles.

      1. Good job that you never drove in F1,the other drivers would have loved you graciously giving way every time.

        Imagine signing the dotted line for Ferrari>

        ” Do I sign here please where it says I will always give all the other drivers a wave as they go past me!!”

  32. unfair match up

  33. as much as I don’t like him… I voted Shumacher, simply because he stayed at the fast end of the grid for such a long time in his career

  34. I am not sure how you manages this pairing but I think it was a bit cruel to put drivers of exactly opposite era in the same pair.Farina raced in 50’s with cars which were very different on the cars of 2010.I guess Schumacher Alonso or Hakkinen would have been a better pairing as they raced in the same era.

    Anyways as this is just for fun I voted Schumacher.

    1. Keith’s idea is to keep the really high profile match-ups for the later rounds. Personally I think a fairer pairing would have been Hamilton and Farina, or Andretti (only F1 stats) and Farina (only one championship till date and won with the top car of the time).

      Keith, you should put up a championship tree after completing the first round of match-ups. That way we can predict who will run into who on the way to the final.

      1. That way we can predict who will run into who on the way to the final.

        That’s exactly why I haven’t done it – didn’t want to take the fun out of it! Will put that up after round one has finished (i.e. the first 16 pairs of drivers).

  35. Booo!! Way to give Schumacher a wild card. Like he needs it of all driver’s. put him up against fangio..

    1. The pairings are seeded. Who wants to see Federa vs. Nadal in the first round. That’s just stupid.

      1. Keith, can we know who is seeded and who is not? I’m guessing Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Brabham, Lauda, Piquet, Prost, Senna, Schumacher, maybe Alonso and Hakkinen but that’s about all I can think of.

        1. All the drivers have been seeded to keep the multiple title winners apart until the latter stages of the Champion of Champions.

          There have been 14 multiple winners and 18 single ones so only 2 matchups in the 1st round would feature 2 single title winners against each other.

          1. I think two pairs of single title winners involve current driver. So we get something like Lewis Hamilton vs. John Surtees or Sebastian Vettel vs. James Hunt.

      2. Exactly, just think of having that kind of pairings in the first round. It would rather take the sense out of it to have guys like Senna, Schumi and Fangio drop out at this stage.

        The hardest choices will be left to the end.

  36. Perhaps you should add the option “Tied”?

  37. Schumi by far is the best one.

  38. Nice series!

    As mentioned, hard to compare.
    I voted Schumi because of his longer time at the top (of the official championship).

  39. Strange pairing. Kind of deliberate “no contest”. I guess it would be weird if Schumi was knocked out in the first pair. So Schumi all the way, but only because of “weak” counterpart.

  40. Schumacher. By a mile.

  41. Schumi’s stat of only 8.21% mechanical failures is incredibly low. I haven’t done the math, but I guess only Hamilton has any chance of getting a smaller percentage. The Brawn/Byrne cars were supremely reliable machines.

  42. I agree this is an unfair match. We have to choose between Schumacher, the man that holds every record in F1, and Farina, a driver that was destroyed by Farina in the years at Ferrari.

  43. ^^ Sorry, destroyed by Ascari.

  44. Even if I wasn’t an alltime Schumi fan, I would’ve voted for him. You’ll have a hard job convincing me there should be someone else Champion of Champions.

    But we will see, maybe some of Keith’s awesome statistics will make it clear that this title belongs to someone else.

  45. ther is just a big gap between these two drivers.
    how they were developed into drivers- Schumy had a go cart when a kid, bit Farina didn’t drive until much later.
    Saftey, Farina must have been braver for risking too much without very little saftey.
    Schumy must be rated better for just getting the job done. And i’m biased.

  46. You have to go with Schumacher, he wins by career length if nothing else.

  47. Sorry Farina, but I am going with Big Shu… Despite a lack of decent opposition at times, he, in the peak of his powers, was a tought nut to crack!

  48. I am sorry but they aren’t compairable at all the nr. 1 of the start of F1 against one of the lastest champion. I vote for neither or Both in this case.

  49. Great photo of Schumacher,nice to see him relaxed and happy.
    Nearly forgot.Happy Birthday Michael :) 42yrs now and still trying for the next title!! Puts the rest to shame.Unless you have Seb Vettel tryng at 55 ;)

  50. I obviously “have an account” here… so why can’t I vote?

    Comparing drivers half a century or more apart is always going to be difficult. They were both absolutely great drivers (particularly if you consider Farina’s career before F1 was “invented”) but in the world of motor *sport* two facts stand out:
    a) Schumacher’s attitude, capped by his parking at Monte Carlo and his move on Barrichello at Hungary;
    b) Given equal cars and equal team favours (as far as I can tell) Rosberg is showing Schumacher in his true light.

    Therefore please add my vote for Farina.

    Happy 2011 to all – Paul

  51. i don’t really see how we judge drivers of the 50s-60s since we never saw them race.

    Schumacher though is the most overrated champion of all times

    1. Schumacher though is the most overrated champion of all times

      Why? Didn’t you see him dominate F1 for 5 years? Or the 1995 Belgian GP? Or Spain 1996?

    2. Well said. Him and Brawn are the worst thing F1 has seen.

      1. I’m sorry, but the worst thing for F1 is “fans” who allow personal feelings to completely obscure their view of one of the greatest drivers ever to live.

      2. And one of the best engineers/strategists in F1 too.

  52. schumi is by far the most successful f1 driver of all time.

  53. Michael! The choice is based not on stats, but on the fact that Farina was just as good as any driver of his era and Schumacher in his days set the standarts for all the field of his opponents and most of the succesfull drivers that came into sport after him and as pointed out by Pat Symmonds once “brought an awful lot the sport”.
    The level of commitment, dedication, determination and his “completiness” as a driver and a team member is still unmatched in my view. I see only Alonso being barely on the same level.

  54. Sorry. Could not vote for Schumacher for anything. Champion is more than numbers. Pity.

  55. Easy, this one. They both had (have) a reputation for overly robust and aggressive driving but as far as I know, Schumacher hasn’t actually killed another competitor by running them off the road as Farina did in Deauville. Farina wasn’t as fast as his more illustrious contemporaries nor was he faster than many less well known drivers of the inter-war era.
    Schumacher is the greatest of all time for me (not my favourite though!) so no real contest here.

  56. Schumi’s successes over the length of his career win this for me.

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