Strategy Group is achieving little, Horner admits

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In the round-up: Christian Horner concedes F1’s controversial Strategy Group is not making progress.


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A burger with AJ Foyt (MotorSport)

Christian Horner: “The strategy group is making little traction, has been going for 12 months and we’ve argued about the same agenda points at pretty much every meeting.”

Williams: Massa exceeded expectations (Autosport)

Pat Symonds: “He was actually quicker than I thought he was [going to be]. I think this is a good example of putting people in the right environment and they will flourish.”


Comment of the day

How has the 2014 season enhanced Hamilton’s reputation?

Hamilton has now won a race in every season he’s competed in. I know some people don’t like him but you cannot deny his talent.

He is the only current driver to win a grand prix in every season he has competed in – that includes some dodgy cars in the MP4-24 and the W04 (which was a tyre shredder).

He has beaten two reigning world champions in Alonso (Hamilton finished second, Alonso third) and Button. He has won the championship with two different teams (Mclaren and Mercedes) and he is the only current driver to win a championship two different teams.

He is also the only current driver to win the championship with a car that finished second in the constructors’ championship (so not the best car). Hamilton has also never had number one status with any of his team mates unlike some (to mention Alonso and Vettel) who have been undisputed number ones for the majority of their F1 careers.

I am not even going to remotely suggest that Hamilton is the best of all time, that will be judged at the end of his career. But certainly he is among the greats. I suspect one of the reasons Hamilton is not appreciated as much is the hidden elephant in the room and most will know what I am referring to. Roll on 2015.

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114 comments on “Strategy Group is achieving little, Horner admits”

  1. Horner is probably IMO the TP who voted for double points when Todt tried to get rid of them, so he can (expletive deleted).

    1. probably, imo hahahahahaha

    2. Actually, when the vote was put forward on whether or not to have double points for the final race, it was stated that the vote was unanimously in favour – in other words, the FIA and all of the teams which had voting rights approved the measure.

      1. I think it was that the more points you get the more money you get. Double points=effectively one extra race worth of points = more money. So every team wanted more money and as such nothing else mattered.

        1. Teams pay an entry fee of $500,000 plus $6000/point for the championship team and $5000/point for everyone else. By have a double points race, the FIA makes more money from the entry fees. Since there are 101 points available at a race, by having double points for one race the FIA gets at least an extra $505,000 and probably more. Sweet deal for doing some paperwork.

      2. @anon I was thinking of the April 2014 meeting, when Todt said at least one team voted to keep DP, but wouldn’t say who.

        @socksollid that’s a good, er, point. Is it a lot of money? Still I feel most of the teams had smelled the coffee by then with the huge fan reaction.

        1. I’m fairly sure that Autosport later claimed that all of the teams had voted against the plans to repeal the double points proposal.
          As SteveR also rightly points out, the FIA also had a very strong incentive to continue with the double points scheme, since they effectively increased their income for 2015 quite considerably at no extra cost to themselves. Given that Todt has been pushing for additional revenue from the teams and from FOM, that source of free cash must have been hard to resist.

  2. Now that Massa has a three year contract, I guess he’ll go back to being a push over. The only times he ever performed in Ferrari seemed to be when Domenicalli was thinking of sacking him!

    1. Not ture. Everytime when he felt strong faith/support from the team, he delivered the best of himself.(2007-2009,late2012,2014)

    2. It is weird that when people talk about Massa’s form they only remeber his last few years against Alonso at Ferrari. I know that Alonso’s skills are far beyond many of the top drivers throughout F1 history and probably is the best driver in the current formula 1 lineup, and that Massa’s form during his stint at Ferrari after his injury was not that great; yet, I don’t think it is fair not to acknowledge Massa’s skills before that time at Ferrari and during this year at Williams, and just to say his form got better only after his time at Ferrari approached an end in response to his results, especially seeing how Raikkonen performed this year against Alonso (nothing against Raikkonen here, I am already a fan of him), and taking Smedley’s opinion about Massa, who is one person who knew Massa well, before and during his years with Alonso at Ferrari, and after that at Williams. I have been a fan of Massa since as long as I can remeber and I almost gave up on him during his last 3 years with Ferrari; however, seeing him perform the way he did this year, especially during the second half of the season, I feel that the “original” Massa is back, and I really look forward to seeing him battling at the front next season.

      1. @hzh00 I completely agree with you.

        Kimi’s performances against Alonso prove that Massa was not a bad driver.

    3. Why should Felipe drive at 100% when he knows he’s going to hear “Felipe… Alonso is faster than you”?

  3. Davej seems to imply that it’s because Hamilton’s skin that he doesn’t get mentioned as an all time great.

    I’d say that, in my case, that is absolutely true. Once he grows a thicker one, I’m gonna rank him higher.

    1. I smell race-baiting..
      Hamilton wears a helmet for his time in the car, at what point should his skin come into it?

      The reason I’m not as big a fan as perhaps his driving skills suggest is because I still see him get a little more upset than most when things don’t go his way (Monaco and Spa are 2 instances). It was the same reason I supported Vettel over Webber.

      I appreciate his driving, there are still times when I think he needs to remember that he is a professional, and is talking about other professionals.

      1. And Vettel was the mature, perfect gentleman during his Webber feud? Did we watch the same F1? I know its off-topic, but you seem to support Vettel for all the wrong reasons. Remember Turkey 2010? The crash Seb caused, then pointed to his head with ‘crazy’ gesture and blamed everything on Webber? Also remember Vettel ignoring team orders AND demanding to have them imposed in his favor quite some time later? And these are only the most memorable examples of Vettel being “a little more upset than most when things didn’t go his way”

      2. So we agree?

        Maybe it was because I was a lot younger, maybe because he was “one of us”, or maybe because the man had a great smile… but I wonder if maybe Senna had been a product of the 21st century, that maybe I would have less respect for his antics.

        1. @faulty I respect Hamilton because he is the greatest Senna fan ever, out there to emulate his hero by following his footsteps of becoming a tri-wizard champion.

          No other driver talks about being a Senna fan, maybe they have forgotten.

          1. Not all drivers are a fan of Senna. They respect him and his talent as do I, but I wouldn’t call myself a fan of him.

          2. If 2007 McLaren was Senna vs. Senna, 2015 McLaren-Honda will be Prost (Button) vs. Senna (Alonso).

            But, Senna’s former mechanic said that Alonso is Prost AND Senna combined, so basically we will see Prost vs. Prost & Senna!

            Alonso has spoken of matching Senna’s 3 titles.. hence why he moved to McLaren in 2007. Maybe this time it can happen.

      3. petebaldwin (@)
        28th December 2014, 1:46

        @keeleyobsessed – Has to be said though, who was the last world champion who didn’t get “a little more upset than most” when things went wrong for them?

        Other than Button (who must would agree won mainly down to his car), you’d have to go back to the 90s to find one! I guess it’s part of that killer instinct…

        1. I have heard Vettel complain over the radio numerous times so you are being a little disingenuous when you single out Lewis there @keelyobsessed. The incidents in Monaco and Spa merited such dismay from Lewis and I doubt anybody on this forum would take ungentlemanly behaviour lying down in our day to day lives. The thing about Lewis is you know exactly what he is thinking and feeling on any given weekend which is refreshing from some of the robotic personalities on the grid so yes, I and others actually enjoy the added drama when he runs his mouth and tell it like it is. Certainly brightened up what might have turned out to be a mundane season. He really doesn’t have to behave like Vettel or Alonso or anybody else because he is NOT them. He is Lewis Carl Davidson Hamilton, 2x World Champion!

          1. @blackmamba I agree every drivers occasionally moans for some reason but Lewis sometimes goes completely childish like sharing data at McLaren via Twitter or claiming Rosberg hit him on purpose. Those kind of things bring out two reactions.

            1) Hamilton die hards that blindly believe it and make it a stronger thing
            2) People who know…

          2. The difference between Hamilton and pretty much anybody else, is that Hamilton can’t let go. His outbursts are not limited to “the heat of the moment” but continues far beyond that.

          3. @xtwl

            The honesty Hamilton displays about how he is feeling is part of the reason I’m a fan. The perfect PR image that some other drivers display out of the cockpit is – frankly – boring, and I have no interest in it. I don’t always agree with what he says, but at least I know that what he says is what he believes.

            As for your specific criticism regarding the Spa incident, Lewis actually said that the Nico claimed he hit him on purpose, which is a very different think than just believing it.

            Also, are you really such an expert that only your opinion is valid? You are claiming that unless someone agrees with you that they must be wrong? I’d be willing to put rather a lot of money on that not being the case.

          4. @fluxsource

            This is exactly my sentiment as well. It’s easier for me to see Hamilton as a human and not a car driving robot. This makes him very interesting for me.

            Yes, he does and says silly things, but then again so do I :)

          5. More importantly, is this the first time that a certain name (Davidson) has been F1 and WEC champion at the same time? @keithcollantine

      4. @keeleyobsessed Spa was Hamilton being professional, he certainly was upset by the incident, but used his experience to play politics in just the right way and set a whirlwind of a negative media frenzy on Rosberg, a key moment in the season.

        What impressed me most about him this season is how he responded after Spa, he matured in his approach to his racing (on and off the track), something that fans and critics have been waiting for, and this was a key part of his championship win

    2. The thing is, Hamilton is plenty thick-skinned. Which other driver has had so-called fans show up in blackface with anti-Hamilton banners and shouting racist slurs? Which other driver has constantly been labeled as being too hard on his car, not as technical as his teammate, unable to cope with new regulations, unable to do anything other than drive flat-out?

      In reality, Hamilton was able to drive faster than Rosberg, while conserving his tires, and using less fuel, and using a more complicated brake setup. Not at all what all the “experts” predicted at the beginning of the year.

  4. These meetings should be very interesting. :)

  5. I have no idea what the ‘elephant in the room’ factor might be. Can someone enlighten me what is this unspoken fact which causes Hamilton to be dismissed by many? Because if Davej claims racism here, than it’s a very cheap trick. Playing the race card? Really? In this overly-PC, sponsor-dependent world being black is actually an asset. People get overhyped because they are of minority race in their respective country or field of work. Ask Americans about how Obama being the first black president overshadowed his actual achievements. Even the Nobel Prize committee got caught in the hype. Race doesn’t have anything to do with Hamilton’s PERCEIVED esteem among fans and pundits alike. Actually, I think Sebastian Vettel gets much more unfair treatment, although I personally have never been his fan.

    1. “Playing the race card.”
      “Black people actually have it easier than white people.”
      “Obama is overhyped.”
      “Race has nothing to do with it.”
      Wow, one more and I think you’ve got white privilege bingo. Well done.

      Seriously, though, think about all of these arguments for a second. Also, talk to actual black people (especially black Americans) about what their experience is truly like. Yes, race comes into it. Just because some of us don’t have dark skin and experience a different world, doesn’t mean discrimination based on skin isn’t happening. That’s a big part of the issue in and of itself. The white world thinks everything’s hunky dory and black people should stop complaining.

      1. I’m asian myself and I have several black and other asian friends. Race is hardly a factor especially in the UK and we all agree on that. People really should stop complaining because we suffer very little discrimination if at all.

        1. @dryyoshi You mean that you suffer very little discrimination. I suggest you stop projecting your experiences onto others.

        2. Well, I’m glad you haven’t been discriminated against because of your race.

          On the other hand, it’s hard to describe this as anything but:

      2. If racism is the reason Hamilton is not considered an all time great. What is the reason that he’s considered one of the most marketable persons in the world of sports?

    2. Nigel Farage, is that you?
      But seriously, if you’re claiming that minorities have it better, you should get your head checked. Funny you should mention Obama, who, just like Lewis, is the only “black” man to get recognised along a long line of caucasians, but to think that they enjoy some sort of preferential treatment is downright preposterous. You talk of an overly-PC world; you know why this came to be? Because it was the only way to educate and marginalise racists morons, a struggle that is still ongoing. And to call Lewis, a double world champion, overhyped due to his creed is pretty moronic, respectfully.

      1. Spain, Italy, France, Greece are all blatantly racist, to the extent of widespread racist. Some other countries are coy about racism, but this is my experience there’s surely a lot more countries with the same problems. Another problem we face is paranoia surrounding racism, in the champions league there are many requests of racism, but not all are actually racist, for instances Man City played at Porto and accused it’s fans of racist chants towards Toure, when all the fans were chanting was HULK, HULK, HULK. Hulk is currently in Russia where there is in fact racism. Bottom line people are jerks and if they want to they’ll belittle someone anyway possible.

        1. Spain, Italy, France, Greece are all blatantly racist, to the extent of widespread racist

          Talking about 200 Million people as “blatantly racist” is product of a “blatantly ignorance”.

    3. @cyclops_pl Race doesn’t speak to me, so I can only speak of my view. I say Ham’s titles are tainted, but so are pretty much 50% of titles, that said Lewis is a great driver, he’s not that hyped because of how well people have faired against him since he blew everyone away on his rookie season. If anything Lewis is more loved for looking fresh and being English, which equates in world terms as something of a neutral position for fans, anyhow his popularity is above average but pretty normal in my view.

      1. I forgot to say that I assumed at first that the elephant in the room was the pretence that Lewis is just marketing propaganda. This may be highlighted by Lewis massive internal support but this casts a shadow on Hamilton’s qualities as an individual and a sports person and also belittles Lewis’s fan base.

        I think there’s an higher profile case of propaganda/discrimination in football. For instances an white spanish speaking footballer, whose country is a paradise for former political extremists, was found to evade taxes, but people don’t care about it. People don’t care about the Sutil’s case or the fathers Di Resta case nor the fake german case or the jenson twitter, I could go back. People will always say he’s a great guy and the best, sports personality. In the footballers case even high profile representatives support in an unfair way. Especially a drunk representative in front of a student crowd from a famous university, incidentally broadcasting through the web. With Lewis, he has massive support within, he went to a big team for his first year, an rare opportunity, and then he leaves with every sponsor on his back, effectively able to choose any team any position and more importantly any contract. What’s evedently wrong with both this cases is the fact Lewis’s fans are extremists they don’t just love Lewis they basically loathe everyone else, spending most of time discriminating another fellow drivers. In the footballer’s case the drunk representative just rambles around an opposing talent which is considered vain and not a good son whose father actually left him when he was a kid, because this man hates this footballers country of origin because their immigrants fester the drunk man’s country because they clean toilets for a living.
        What sets them apart is that on top of all the artificial factors, Lewis picks his words like the autocomplete function of a smartphone something that the press loves which often makes him look like an awful person.

        1. Sorry but your comment is really difficult to read. Could you be direct and state clearly your mind ?

        2. Can you please elaborate as to how Lewis’s titles are tainted?

    4. Oh boy, all the pc arguments of elephantintheroomism are in This comment

    5. SennaNmbr1 (@)
      28th December 2014, 8:33

      Whatever DaveJ meant, I would like to point out that Lewis Hamilton is not black, he’s mixed race.

      1. @sennanmbr1

        Whatever DaveJ meant, I would like to point out that Lewis Hamilton is not black, he’s mixed race.

        And I’d like to point out that that is for Lewis to decide, not you, nor anyone else.

        1. I wasn’t deciding anything for anyone. I was just stating what is a biological fact.

          1. @sennanmbr1

            Your biological “fact” is misleading and unhelpful. The vast majority of us are “mixed race” of some kind, and it is not for you to tell us which pigeon hole to put Lewis in. If Lewis identifies as black, then he is black. Your “fact” has nothing to do with it, nor does it change what prejudices he has or hasn’t faced.

        2. @fluxsource
          Hamilton’s mother, Carmen Larbalestier, is white British, while his father, Anthony Hamilton, is black British, making him mixed-race. Via wikipedia. Let’s just stop being such pansies and call things as they are: his mother is white, his father’s black. Nothing for him to decide, nor he should, he should be proud of who and what he is. End of story

          1. @gicu

            That you and @sennanmbr1 think that this contributes anything to a discussion on racism rather telling. I’m going to leave it there.

          2. @fluxsource

            It does contribute to a discussion on racism. His skin colour is something certain, it’s not about him identifying with it. Racist people won’t stop being racist if Lewis “acts” more like a white person, they hate people based on their colour/ethnic group rather than their behaviour. It doesn’t matter if Lewis identifies as black or not (at least not from their perspective; From Lewis’ it’s a great thing that he embraces it), racist people will still hate him either way.

          3. I’m surprised no one picked up on his mother’s name sounding French; there’s the opportunity for endless tabloid trash there, but maybe that flies over their heads.

            But if we want to ‘call things as they are’ @gicu, then ‘race’ is also a social construct, and not a biological fact. I think that’s what @fluxsource is alluding to. Ethnicity exists as ‘shared history’, biological or social.

  6. Pay Symonds??? So are Williams going to employ pay drivers in the future or is the money coming from him?

    1. no, we just entered the era of pay-engineers. If you don’t have a rich sponsor backing you, you can’t work for an F1 team. Not even in the garage. Or office for that matter.

      1. Lotus’s cleaner for 2014 Maureen brings sponsorship from Domestos however it appears Doreen is bringing big money from Cilit Bang so although Maureen had a sparkling 2014 we all know it’s a money game and with youth on her side Maureen looks to be taking the Lotus bucket for 2015. Doreen who has been part of the Barry Scott Development squad this year cleaning in Formula 3 for Carlin in very much a young mop aged only 17 and is seen as a big gamble for Lotus, however whatever the results the money from Cilit Bang will be a huge bonus for Lotus. As we enter this era of pay cleaners you have to wonder what price cleanliness?

        1. This is gold… :-)

    2. Where do you get that from the autosport article? Where does he mention pay drivers and don’t you realise that Williams will have a significantly bigger budget next year thanks to 3rd place in the constructors championship.

      That is a realli weird comment you have made.

      1. Todd (@braketurnaccelerate)
        28th December 2014, 1:17

        Its a play on Keith’s incorrect spelling above.

  7. I acknowledge what Hamilton has achieved, and will remember him as one of the greater drivers of this era, but for some reason I feel like he is missing that “something.” I’m sure many will disagree, but that’s just my opinion.

  8. I suspect one of the reasons Hamilton is not appreciated as much is the hidden elephant in the room and most will know what I am referring to.

    Sorry, Davej, could you be a bit more specific? An elephant in the room is something that is so big that it can’t be avoided – everyone knows it’s there, but nobody wants to talk about it or deal with it. So the concept of a hidden elephant in the room has got me all confused :P

  9. Re: COTD

    Hamilton is a great driver but I am sick of his fanboys overhyping him to the point of complete factual and statistical fallacy.

    He DID NOT beat Jenson Button while they were in the same car from 2010-2012.
    Jenson Button = 8 wins / 672 points / 25 podiums / 5th-2nd-5th for avg finishing position of 4.0
    Lewis Hamilton = 10 wins / 657 points / 22 podiums / 4th-5th-4th for avg finishing position of 4.333

    So after 3 years as Lewis Hamilton teammate. Jenson Button scored more points, was on the podium more, finished closest to a WDC with a 2nd (2011) all the while being paid less than his “better” teammate. The 2nd place in the WDC also meant that of the two drivers, only Jenson earned an end of season trophy at the FIA prize giving night. So over 3 years, Jenson (25+1) also picked more silverware than Lewis (22)

    The “Money Ball” guys would have loved Jenson. For every dollar spent he returned more WC points (therefore more money) for Mclaren than Lewis Hamilton did.

    Lewis did win more races… 10-8 but these Lewis fanboys will white wash history and stats and tell you that he soundly beat Jenson Button. This is simply not true.

    Over the course of their careers, Lewis Hamilton will end up being the better driver. That much cannot be denied.

    However… during their time together at Mclaren, Jenson Button WAS BETTER than Lewis Hamilton.

    1. This outscoring mantra has been exhausted by JB fans to the point of ridiculousness. Is it not true that Button only Outscored Hamilton in 2011? To attempt to add Button’s 2011 points to both 2010 and 2012 is very misleading to say the least because it discounts the simple fact that every season is finite and a driver starts with Zero points.

      Because Hamilton beat Button or rather “outscored” Button in 2/3 seasons he very much ‘beat’ Button. “Button finished 2nd” some 122 points from the leader in 2011. Hamilton finished 4th some 16 points from the leader in 2010 and so therefore your point of “Button came closer” is very debatable.

      Furthermore you want to overlook the fact that Hamilton had more poles and scored more pointsun a two car finish. Lewis also finished ahead of JB 24 vs 13 times in a two car finish.

      Is it a surprise that podiums and total points, the only two stats that JB holds over Lewis are the ones you are basing your argument on? Surprise surprise.

      1. @resort2spa Okay, you are accusing people of overhyping Lewis when infact you are the one overhyping Jenson. I agree with everything @davej said but to widen it a little bit I have seen numerous articles ranking the Top 20 F1 drivers ever and Jenson does not appear in a single one. Why is that when the teammate he supposedly wiped the floor with appears in every single one. Also there is a debate going on who is the best ever F1 British driver and guess what, it’s btwn Clark, Stewart, Hamilton, Mansell and Moss who never even won a Championship. So trying to compare Button to Hamilton is laughable. Perspective please!

        1. Here comes the Lewis Hamilton brigade.

          It is like waving a red flag at a bull.

          Go back and read my post again.
          Where did I say that Jenson wiped the floor ?
          Where did I overhype him?

          I’ll say it one more time @blackmamba

          I did not say that Jenson Button was better than Lewis Hamilton…

          I said… In the 3 years they raced in the same team Jenson Button beat Lewis Hamilton. Or you could say he “bettered” him. Therefore he was“better” than him at Mclaren.

          We don’t need to try and compare Jenson and Lewis. The comparison has been made for us when they raced in cars that compare at race tracks that compare in conditions that compare.

          Aaaand Jenson scored more points.

          Which I admit it isn’t the only standard but it is by far the most important standard.
          Couple of other standards you could use.
          *JB – 25+1 trophies > LH – 22
          *JB – 47 points finishes > LH – 45

          Admittedly… Lewis did trounce JB in Qualy but JB raced a lot cleaner and over the long run, (marginally) better on Sundays which is where the money is made and WDC points are decided.

          Again… JB did not wipe the floor or trounce LH… he was marginally better than him over 3 years.

          No over hype here… just facts and stats.

          1. No, JB was just better than Lewis in 2011 only. The end. I would like to hear you explain how Button was better in 2010 and 2012. Because what you are doing is attempting to merge 3 seasons into 1 season which is quite disingenuous.

          2. I did not say that Jenson Button was better than Lewis Hamilton…

            Therefore he was“better” than him at Mclaren.


            he was marginally better than him over 3 years.

            No. Button did incredibly well, but the keys facts are that Hamilton beat Button in 2/3 years and finished ahead (apparently, I can’t be bothered to double check) 24 vs 13. Even allowing for occasions when a driver didn’t finish due to their own error rather than technical problems, I imagine Hamilton finished ahead more. All those other facts are nice, but utterly meaningless, and also don’t factor in technical problems, without which Hamilton would have extended his number of wins, which would have almost certainly seen his points and podium tally surpass Button’s.

            I’m a huge fan of Button and think he did very well against Hamilton, but you are using the wrong stats to make the wrong argument- you can use the same stats to show how strongly they compared, or accept that the ones you used don’t really support the premise that ‘he was marginally better than him over 3 years’.

    2. @Resort2Spa– Up until Lewis vs Button I have never heard of cumulative points being used as the only indicative measure of team mates.

      Over a season- yes but beyond that it’s a futile exercise. Here is a question- Prost Outscored Senna in both seasons when they were team mates yet they had 1 championship apiece. So by your reasoning Prost beat Senna during their time as team mates?

      Massa Outscored Raikkonen prior to his accident in 2009 yet Kimi had a world championship. Again by your reasoning Massa beat Raikkonen? You cannot add Button’s 2011 points to 2010 and 2012 and say ahhh yes, Button outscored Lewis over 3 seasons because that is simply misleading.

      History will always show that Hamilton scored more points in 2010 and 2012 and not the cumulative 3 years you quote.

      You say “Hamilton fans over hype him” yet you are guilty of of exactly the crime you are accusing others of- attempting to make Button look like he was better in all three seasons yet he was only better in 1-2011. Pot, Kettle black doesn’t even come close for you does it. Bar COTD’s last sentence everything in there is fact- Button was beaten in 2010 as the reigning champion and so was Alonso, Hamilton has won a race in every season he has competed in and he is the only current driver to win a championship with two different teams. Where is the overhype there?

      Maybe the issue here is you have a problem accepting facts or that as a Button fan you can’t accept that Hamilton is the better driver.

      1. Um

        Read again

        “Over the course of their (entire) careers, Lewis will end up being the better driver. That much cannot be denied”

        I have admitted Lewis is a better driver over his career.

        Over the course of 3 seasons in equal machinery, where a long enough time span has revealed the truth, Jenson Button clearly won.

        672 > 657

        1. @Resort2Spa– 672 vs 652 is meaningless because you are attempting to manipulate 3 seasons into 1. As I said, “History will always show that Hamilton scored more points in 2010 and 2012 and not the cumulative 3 years you quote.”

          I guess you cannot respond as to why cumulative points have limited credibility by the countless examples I gave. If Button had scored more points in at least two seasons your argument would hold water but as it stands Button only scored more points once- 2011 not “in all three seasons” as you are attempting to misrepresent. Still you can hold on to that if it makes you sleep better at night but you know full well that Button was comfortably beaten in 2010 and 2012

        2. Surely it would be more representative to factor out reliability issues to correct for the number of retirements that each driver had? Total points tells you how many times a driver finished in the points, but isn’t the best metric for telling you how successful he has been per race.

          For example, Button may have scored almost the same number of points as Hamilton in 2012, but considering that Hamilton retired from more races than Button did (six times against four for Button, and in at least three of those instances Hamilton retired whilst leading), it would indicate that Hamilton was scoring more points per race than Button was.

    3. @resort2spa

      I still can’t believe people are trotting this stuff out. Lewis won that battle by 3 seasons to 2, and had he not been taken out by Hulk in his last race for McLaren, he would have amassed more points overall as well.

      Anyone who honestly thinks Jenson was a better driver over those years than Hamilton is simply deluding themselves.

    4. Ask yourself this;

      If Lewis and Jenson, during their time at Mclaren together, had been in the same situation as the Mercedes drivers are now (i.e. dominant car, finish 1-2 every race, one of them is guaranteed the title), could you still claim that Jenson beat Lewis because he accumulated more points across the 3 seasons? In this hypothetical situation, Lewis would have won 2 world titles compared to Jenson’s 1. How can you claim that Jenson beat Lewis in that sense?

      1. +1. But nevermind that. How one can say that Jenson “outscored” Lewis in all three seasons when in fact he only scored more points in 2011. That is tonne and a bit of proof that the stat is misleading. In fact I would put it another way- if Jenson “outperformed” Lewis over three years because he “ourscored” Lewis then how come the official FIA results tell a different story. 2010 and 2012 clearly show that Lewis had more points and a better championship position. I like what @ Blazz above said to show how limited credibility this argument has in the Kimi vs Massa and Prost vs Senna examples. This outscoring mantra is just something that was cooked up to undermine Lewis in my view and obviously some Button fans and the anti-Lewis brigade have clung on to it ever since.

    5. There’s another really important statistic missing, cost, reputedly, over the three years Button cost McLaren Mercedes $30m while Hamilton cost $70m.
      So Hamilton cost $40m more and scored 15pts less.

      1. You are so obsessed with this outscoring argument because you know that by attempting to make 3 seasons into one it looks much better for Button. I mean it’s not like you have an agenda is it.

      2. So we’re to take a driver’s salary into account when we calculate the final driver’s standings? If not, can you clarify what point you’re making? Incidentally, can i see your research into their salaries?

    6. @Resort2Spa– a few questions.
      1- How was Button better in 2010?
      2- How was Button better in 2012?
      I am struggling to see how you arrive at the conclusion that Button was BETTER than Hamilton over the 3 years here. Let’s hear your argument, because you and I both know that this total points argument of yours is a farce.

    7. @Resort2Spa Jenson was definitely a closer match for Lewis than most people thought he would be, but your statistics are very selective.

      Examples of statistics that go significantly in Hamilton’s favour are the qualifying record (44-14 to Hamilton, 9 poles to 1 pole) and race results in a two-car finish (24-13). Hamilton had more DNFs than Button (13-8), but even if you include retirements into the figure, Hamilton is still ahead in best race result 32-26. Hamilton was more crash-prone than Button, retiring from collisions 7 times to Button’s 3 (though it must be said that not all of Hamilton’s crashes were his fault, e.g. Grosjean Spa 2012, Hulkenberg Brazil 2012). Hamilton’s crashes tended to occur from higher positions (e.g. Valencia 2012 while running 3rd, Brazil 2012 while leading) so they were even more costly.

      Although Hamilton was involved in more collisions, he also suffered more mechanical retirements as well (6-5). These also tended to occur from higher positions, costing Hamilton ~90 potential points to Button’s ~40 potential points. Hence the redundancy of the points argument, as with equal luck Hamilton would have been ahead.

      All of Jenson’s points advantage comes from one season where Hamilton was off his game. It’s certainly true that Jenson outperformed Hamilton in 2011 – I would agree with that. But I would also argue that Hamilton outperformed Jenson by a similar margin in 2012, being ahead 7-3 in a two car finish (plus 17-3 in qualifying), but he suffered a lot more bad luck, retiring 6 times to Button’s 4 and losing 4 likely victories to misfortune (Spain [McLaren fuelling error loses him dominant pole and sends him to the back of the grid], Singapore [mechanical failure while leading], Abu Dhabi [mechanical failure while leading] and Brazil [taken out by the 2nd-placed Hulkenberg while leading]). Just those 4 races are up to 100 points lost to misfortune (the extra points would have been enough for him to win the championship in 2012), and Jenson actually benefited further in the points tally in Brazil as he inherited a win after running in 3rd place before that collision. This further demonstrates why the points argument is ridiculous – the Hulkenberg incident in Hamilton’s last race for McLaren created a 35-point swing towards Button (Hamilton loses a potential 25 points, Button gains 10 points by inheriting the win after running 3rd). But for one bit of misfortune in his final race with Button as a teammate, Hamilton would have been 20 points ahead of Button, instead of 15 points behind.

      Also, although you say that Jenson “got closer to the championship” by finishing 2nd in 2011, remember that Hamilton was only 16 points (less than one second place) away from winning the championship in 2010, while Button was 122 points behind Vettel in 2011, so in terms of points deficit Hamilton got closer to winning the championship. Hamilton’s 4th place in 2010 didn’t do him much justice because there were 4 drivers capable of winning the championship in the last race. To illustrate how close it was, earlier in the season Hamilton had a wheel rim failure and retired in Spain 2010 on the penultimate lap while running 2nd. If the wheel rim had just lasted for two more laps and he had finished 2nd in that race, he would have been champion that year.

  10. Reminds me of Monaco 2011, but no, the stewards are not racist and right now discrimination is very rare, This is not an era of African slaves….

  11. One cannot make everyone in the world like you no matter how famous or how great a person is. On Hamilton there will always some form of racism maybe from other countries like in Spain when he was on par and even beat Alonso so there was a lot of anguish from Spanish fans but those belong to the hooligans category IMHO.
    But overall Hamilton has millions of fans who loves him. The only thing I don’t really like about Lewis is his bling but that’s only me. I respect him for his amazing race craft and his honesty when he speaks which might not have gone well with everyone, but nevertheless he is entitled to his opinion. Mind you a rookie who lost the championship by a single point is a feat never to be forgotten like it or not.

  12. Somehow I just don’t trust what Horner says, it’s just a feeling.

  13. How typical. COTD spends 95% of its length giving a brilliant summary of what Hamilton actually achieved, and all subsequent comments are about the suggestion race may make it harder for people to see these achievements and act consequently. Well I haven’t read many subsequent comments acknowledging Hamilton’s achievements.

    1. I would have hoped COTD would have sparked long discussions about Ham’s better races and flashes of genius (or his hic cups and brain freezes) like the same kind of COTD about Alonso being best of his era would have

    2. @tango That’s easy to explain, actually.

      Nobody disputes Hamilton’s talent or his achievements, therefore there’s little discussion to spark.

      To suggest that the only reason anyone dislikes Hamilton is because of his race, when there are plenty of other reasons to dislike him, is different.

  14. People are stating that I am manipulating the race card here but let me put it this way. Hamilton gets ridiculed by the British media for his tax status and many claim that is the reason why he is not so popular. However when we look at it objectively- Button was praised as an ambassador for the sport in 2009 (and still is) yet he was a Monaco resident. The same applies to Mansell, Stewart et al and all these British World champs were embraced by the nation. But Hamilton is an exception to this rule even though the circumstances are almost exactly the same- A British World Champ who lives in Monaco but the reaction is more negative.

    The same applies with the stewarding particularly during the Max Mosley days. Everyone remember the Belgium GP in 2008 when Hamilton cut the chicane, let Kimi back past and then he repassed him in the next corner only to be penalised after the race? The stewarding has improved greatly but that was just one example of many. This leads me to some of the comments by fans alike. Lewis wins the championship and some devalue it “because he had the best car”. That is the name of the game- Schumi won titles with Ferrari in the best car and he even had his own special tyres but somehow Lewis is an exception. We have the 4times champ in Vettel and some appreciate his titles but not Hamilton’s, even though he was the undisputed number one in the best car for some 4 years.

    Some say Lewis is ‘petulant’ yet throughout the season Nico was pulling petulant stunts for example- celebrating a cheap pole in Monaco, his mind games in Abu Dhabi “Lewis can drive clean” and yet it’s not a big deal. What about Seb and Fernando- two of the biggest stroppers on the grid (Silverstone ’14 team radio is a perfect example of this). So what am I saying?

    It has always baffled me and I wondered why it seems Lewis is judged by double standards. Some of my questions were answered when I read “Everyday Bias” authored by renowned Scientist Howard J. Ross which shows that people notice not only race but gender, wealth, even weight. As some people always claim “I don’t see colour”, well science has bad news. When babies are as young as 3 months old, research shows they start preferring to be around people of their own race and that everyone has their natural born prejudices. This may help to explain some of this inconsistent behaviour among the media and some of the fans alike. I am not casting a blanket accusation of racism here but I am simply implying it may provide some answers as to why Hamilton is an exception compared to other drivers and previous champs. Before people accuse me of playing the race victim card, I am white British myself.

    1. I’d argue race has nothing to do with it, at least not in the mainstream and with the majority of the fans – that there are some fringes out there where it applies can’t be denied. Double standards among fans and media exist for every driver though, especially for those that live a very public life like Lewis or have success. So he is bound to polarize opinions like every other driver has before him.
      As example, look at Vettel, he was shredded for Malaysia 2013 while many forgot Mark’s mindset in Silverstone 2011. By some he was portrayed as spoilt brat, while almost all insiders say he isn’t. Or take Alonso, the media portrayed him as difficult to work with, while there is not 1 single current or former employee on record confirming it.

    2. You’re calling people racist because they dont support Hamilton. Heck, might as well call people racist because they dont support Kobayashi or Maldonado!

      1. Your comprehension skills are seriously lacking. I am saying that racism still exists and that may explain some of the behaviour by the fans and the media alike towards Hamilton. I think that is worlds apart from your statement.

      2. I guess you missed this bit in my comment- “I am not casting a blanket accusation of racism here but I am simply implying it may provide some answers as to why Hamilton is an exception compared to other drivers and previous champs”

    3. This leads me to some of the comments by fans alike. Lewis wins the championship and some devalue it “because he had the best car”

      So you didn’t read any article when Vettel was winning in ’10-’13. Replace Lewis with Vettel in that sentence and that’s the most used comment in the last four years. Or was that because Vettel is from Germany?

      F1 is a sport in which people from all over the world work, except from 0,0001% of the fans I don’t think there is much racism going around. Saying that would influence how we look upon his performance is just nonsense. I don’t like the person Hamilton but respect his driving and racecraft.

      Sure, the stewards don’t always make the best decisions but are you really going to make a case about something that happend SEVEN years ago? The boy got into McLaren and fought for the title straight away, he has been given chances many drivers will never have. If there was any racism along the way I hardly doubt it would have affected him in any way.

      1. That in your opinion you believe “only 0.0001% are racist” does not mean it’s fact. If you truely believe that racism and institutional racism is near non existent then I honestly believe that is being naive. Remember I did not say everyone who dislikes Hamilton is racist- but that it certainly has a role to play in some fans and the media alike.

    4. @davej Your Lewis vs. Nico comments don’t make any sense at all.

      Nico was so pilloried by fans he was getting boo’d on the podium! Yet you think he was treated better than Lewis despite both of them showing petulant, selfish behaviour? Was Lewis getting boo’d?

      1. This is a superb example I think @hairs. Rosberg cheats and Hamilton gets blamed for not liking it. All kinds of people joined in.

        It’s like the kid at school who’s a bit different.

        1. +1, well said

    5. @davej, it’s funny that you should bring Stewart up, since it actually took some time before he was “embraced by the nation”, as you put it. Indeed, some of the attacks on Stewart were, at the time, just as harsh as some of the criticism Hamilton has faced, and it is only in retrospect that people warmed to him.

      As one of the first drivers to take up residency in a foreign country – Switzerland in his case – to reduce his tax bills, at the time he was subjected to a huge amount of criticism, and sometimes outright abuse, for his actions. It is something that he is still criticised about from time to time, and he still has to defend the move to this day, showing that there is still some resentment of his actions several decades ago.

      Furthermore, his safety campaigns initially made him hugely unpopular within the motorsport community and with the specialist press – it was only several years down the line, when it became clear that the changes he had pushed for were beginning to have positive effects, that opinions began to change.
      For example, when the old Spa-Francorchamps circuit was removed from the calendar in 1972, Dennis Jenkinson launched a series of highly personal and bitter attacks on him and ended one article by saying “Can you really ask me in all honesty to admire, or even tolerate, our current reigning World Champion Driver?”. Could you imagine a contemporary journalist saying that they could not tolerate Hamilton if he was campaigning for something most people would assume to be a positive move?

    6. @Davej

      I couldn’t agree with you more. To further add to your comment, let’s look at the comparison further between Lewis and Nico

      Nico has been in F1 since 2006 and during that time, I’ve never heard anyone mention how cerebral, intelligent or smart he is, so as to prove his abilities, heck I’ve never heard those words used so much until this season and I’ve been watching F1 since 96. But the moment Lewis became his teammate, that’s all we hear about Nico. But in Lewis’s case, what we get is, “he’s fast, aggressive and naturally talented”.

      Now to get where Lewis is in his career, you can’t just be a fast, aggressive and naturally talented driver”

      Peopl don’t want to accept that race plays a part in some of the double standar treatment he gets, but when you do mention it, “your playing the race card”. Race is not a problem to those who don’t have to deal with it on a daily basis.

  15. I think the title should read “…Horner admits, with a great big smile on his face.”

  16. COTD

    Hamilton has now won a race in every season he’s competed in.

    Amazing, and it will take at least 10 years for somebody to beat him (rookie starting next year), unless Hamilton extends this stat.

  17. I have to thank this COTD for enlightening me.
    There I was, firmly believing, that I only dislike Hamilton because he’s a manipulative, whiner who speaks one thing today and the other thing tomorrow.

    1. Oh you are very welcome. I mean it’s not like you couldn’t say the same for Alonso in 2007 when he was being manipulative because Hamilton was giving him a hard time on track. Glad you did some reflection there ;-)

    2. Well he doesn’t whine so your perception does appear to entail some extra factor tbh.

      He can be a bit inconsistent in what he says, but how serious is that, really?

      1. Except he totally does. He basically won this year’s championship by whining sufficiently enough to make Mercedes make him the unofficial number one driver after Monaco and Spa.

        1. Nothing to do with him being the superior racer and winning 11 races in 1 year then @klon ?

        2. @klon Hahaha you must think MercF1 are soft and us too. Son of Keke, getting toasted, commits the most premeditated driver cheat in F1 history; it’s whitewashed. He does another one and the driver steward actually boasts about spending 10s on it before whitewashing that too. Niki and Toto are both incandescent, Nico is booed on the podium by racegoing fans. A Merc PR person confirms Rosberg even said he made contact ‘to prove a point’.

          Lewis was amazingly dignified. No wonder the team embraced him, quite apart from the racing. It’s just a shame they didn’t have the integrity to chuck his thoroughly dishonest teammate out.

  18. Christian Horner has done more than most team principals to torpedo unity amongst the teams, the shameless hypocrite.

  19. I agree that Hamilton is fantastic driver but 2014 is below his “standards”

      1. @3dom 2012, 2010, and 2007 is the examples of his standards. He was flawless in 2010 and 2012, while he make mistakes in 2007 I think there is no rookie that did not made mistakes. This year he should able to take advantage of his car and finish 2nd in both Germany and Hungary, he made mistakes in Brazil and Austria That cost him wins, and I know that Monaco was arguable but had he set Faster Flying Lap than Rosberg, there will be no contoversies and if he faster, he should overtake.

        1. @klon Hamilton did make mistakes in 2010, misjudging his car limits leading to his suspension failure in his crash with Massa in Monza and also with his crash in Singapore. Obviously there are always a lot of “what ifs” during a season, but if he picked up points from those races he may have had a more realistic shot at the title that year.

          He did make mistakes in a few races this year. Brazil I think was a lack of communication, he used his tyres up in the first lap after Rosberg pitted because he thought that was his last lap on them. In my mind the biggest mistake that he made was earlier on in the season when he was trying to play media mind games with Rosberg, when all he really had to do what let his racing do the talking.

          For me there was a change in his approach in the second half of the season, after Spa, where (that duff lap in Brazil excluded), he matured. Look at how he dealt with the start procedure failure in Monza, how he was able to set his car up so that even following Rosberg in the esses in Austin, he was able to make his tyres last and pass for the lead & the win. Minimal media sniping, just doing his talking on the track. He seemed to grow, far more mature than in his former years.

          His race craft was a delight. His qualy mistakes were a surprise, but at the end of the day he’s human, as a fan it was really hard to watch at times, the roller coaster of this season, but it made it all the more sweeter when he came out on top the way he did. Really entertaining (the only thing I would have changed in the end is him winning without Rosberg’s mechanical problem in the last race).

          It will be interesting to see if he can carry his end of season form/approach into next season

  20. Having read all the comments here, I dont understand why people cant understand that its in everybody’s right to dislike someone.

    I have not liked Hamilton from day one, just like how I used to dislike David Coulthard and Ralf Schumacher..I couldnt explain it, I just never liked them. With Lewis, it was partially due to how he came on to the scene as the chosen one, given a car and the support required to win a WDC right from the get go. Being an Alonso fan didnt help much either…but thats my reason.

    I respect Hamilton as a driver, he is definitely a master class on track…however, for some reason, I feel that people and the media probably feel indifferent to him because of his exploits off the track. I think British media has this expectation of how a World Champion driver should conduct himself (see Jenson Button), and Lewis is the anti-thesis of that…the private jet, hip hop outfits, mo-hawkish hairdos, pop star girlfriend, Roscoe etc.

    Playing the race card is probably a bit weak in context of Lewis vs World. He paid millions upon millions, is currently the most marketable athlete in the world and has a legion of fans, so he isnt doing too badly, definitely not being discriminated against or marginalised.

    However, this does not mean that racism isnt rife the world over…hey, in my country its institutionalized. In the world of sports, its hard to use the race card, because the cream always rises to the top. Some of the greatests athletes of all time are black…and they are widely acknowledge to be so…hence I am unsure what the ‘elephant in the room is’…perhaps Cotd is suggesting that F1 is a rich white male’s only club?

    1. @jaymenon10 It’s not about ‘the race card’ or dislike or how rich he is, it’s about discrimination. Bias. Even people who like him have this instinct to side against him. People have every mistake burned into their memories while they can’t even remember the mistakes other drivers make. If you say ‘liar’ it’s Hamilton that comes up even though all the others have lied since; Jenson especially, but a lot of fans would struggle to say when. Same with tax exile for example, which has never figured after a BBC Sports Personality award before.

      Some of it is not ‘pure’ racism maybe but also about the subculture he choses, it’s hard to know, but it’s not hard to find times he’s treated with less tolerance than white drivers. Or ‘mainstream’ drivers one could say perhaps.

  21. Lewis is as white as he is black so ..stupid comment alert…. to call him black is sort of racist in itself. Or not, cant quite work it out but I remember an excellent cartoon in the Guardian when Obama got elected. A black solider turns to a white soldier and says to him “you must be so proud”

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