Esteban Gutierrez, Haas, Red Bull Ring, 2016

Unwell Gutierrez visited hospital after Baku

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In the round-up: Esteban Gutierrez reveals he visited a hospital due to his recent illness.

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Daniil Kvyat, Toro Rosso, Red Bull Ring, 2016
Kvyat slipped up and crashed out
There’s little sympathy for the drivers who damaged their cars on kerbs this weekend:

The people saying ‘don’t run wide’ are spot-on. Racing is about driving fast with precision and it’s that precision that separates those that can from those that can’t. The throttle is not an on off switch so the drivers can control the speed at which they drive and if they can’t go through a corner at a certain speed, then they can go slower.

I suggest you watch videos of drivers from other eras to see how they remained within the track limits while going fast. The current crop of drivers have gotten sloppy due to the rules not being enforced and so when finally asked to drive within the limits they resort to the old argument of someone can get hurt.
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  • 38 comments on “Unwell Gutierrez visited hospital after Baku”

    1. I’m with the COTD that the drivers shouldn’t be driving off the track in the first place, they wouldn’t if it were a wall. But why aren’t they penalised by having their times disqualified etc… rather than destroying the car. Plenty of other tracks don’t break cars with their curbs and to be honest track limit enforcement needs to start being treated more seriously.

      With modern telemetry and computerised drive by wire throttle control couldn’t some system like in video games be introduced to reduce power so they lose time?

      1. The power loss idea is one that could potentially be dangerous – suppose that the driver in question was being followed by another driver? If he ran slightly wide then suddenly slowed down – or even just failed to accelerate as quickly as expected – then that could potentially cause an accident if the driver behind could not react in time.

        I’d say that the most effective system would simply be better monitoring and enforcement of the existing regulations on track limits. We saw that, in 2014 and 2015, the FIA stripped quite a few drivers of their times during qualifying, whilst the threat of time penalties during the race acted as enough of a deterrent that the drivers, by and large, obeyed the limits during the races themselves.

        1. Lots of things are dangerous, snapping suspension is more dangerous than slowing a car down briefly. The old astro turf used to slow the car down and also risk a potential spin, both dangerous to a following car. With a power cut the driver behind if they see the driver all 4 wheels off the track knows they’ll be hit with a power cut so should be prepared for that anyway.

      2. If something like Kvyat’s crash happens during the race, this could end up very bad.

        Just place some astroturf or gravel outside the corner, it’s not that hard.

      3. I do believe run off areas should simply be a safety measure, purely for if a driver has a failure or collision, or fails to slow down for a particularly slow corner. Punishing the drivers is good. But damaging the car like that, and causing loss of control has the opposite effect: it’s dangerous.

        This type of suspension failure has happened before, from memory it was a problem on two of the kerbs in India. Different types of kerbs but the same type of failure.

        I simply don’t understand what happened to having a grass strip between the track and the run off. Not artificial grass, actual grass like some circuits have.

    2. How difficult is it to come up with a surface that is like ice? Astro turf doesn’t seem slippery enough, but surely someone is smart enough to invent something?
      Some of the best engineers in the world, yet the FIA can’t get anyone to come up with a smart solution to stop drivers from exceeding track limits!?

      1. Negative camber would suffice.

      2. @ivz Why we need complicated and expensive solution? The rules clearly stated the driver should within the track limit and because they never really enforced it, now it’s expected for the drivers to run wide? If they don’t like the kerbs, then treat it like a wall, touch it and you out of the race, only its safer because you don’t get big impact.

    3. Omar R (@omarr-pepper)
      3rd July 2016, 1:00

      Now that Mercedes has one of their cars on pole, they want a change in the kerbs? Leave the kerbs aa they are, change them after the race. If they keep catching drivers who venture out of the track limits, so be it, no matter if it’s Rosberg or Hamilton.

    4. I really don’t understand what was Sky rumbling about. These kerbs seem to be more of a safety concern than anything in f1 right now, how can they not understand that? I’m all for respecting track limits but to artificially put someone’s life at risk is essentially “attempt to murder”. The problem is not the concept, it is the execution, with these kerbs at any minute a driver can have a catastrophic potentially fatal crash, that’s not the type of danger I want in F1. There’s a difference between risk assessment and life.

      1. @peartree I don’t think the kerbs danger is putting “someone’s life at risk”. All the accidents shows broken suspension that will make you out of the race but the car itself is spinning in run-off area and Rosberg and Sainz hit the wall with minimum speed.

        1. @sonicslv, in the case of Kvyat, he ended up spinning back across the track and into the barrier at the end of the pit lane when the suspension on his car broke, before then sliding across the track again at Turn 9.

          In his case, he could have ended up spinning into another driver at high speed and caused a similar accident to the one which Heidfeld and Sato had a number of years ago at Turn 2 (where Heidfeld spun into Sato with enough force to puncture the side of Sato’s cockpit).

          If Kvyat’s accident had happened during the early stages of a race when the cars are relatively closely bunched up, he probably would have collided with several other drivers and potentially caused a quite serious multi-car pile up on the exit of one of the faster corners on the circuit. I wouldn’t dismiss out of hand the possibility of a serious accident because of these issues.

      2. Networkburger
        3rd July 2016, 11:40

        Wow, that’s some next level dichotomising. Kerbs appear to be dangerous? MURDERERS. There’s a whole universe of gray in between the black and white edges of the fictional universe safety advocates want to portray lately. Don’t like the halo? You must be a bloodthirsty brute who wants to see drivers die. This is not how to hold a civilised discussion.

        1. I don’t like the halo. What’s more dangerous? a gun or a bullet? Burger there’s no white and grey, what there is, is the inability to perceive reality properly. No projectiles no need for halo. Why do we need those kerbs, put astroturf or negative camber and the drivers not only will not want to lose time of track as they won’t come in danger.

    5. COTD is awful. Racing is about using all the available track and kerb. You didn’t see Rosberg outside of track limits when his suspension failed. To come to any GP with the same cars that have been hopping and jumping all over kerbs at Monaco and other tracks prior to this and have at least 4 separate suspension failures means it’s specific to this track. The kerbs are too aggressive and if we don’t see another failure during the race I will be surprised.

      Those kerbs need changing and simple, if a driver goes off the track there should be a system when he/she should get penalised in an intelligent and fair manner. Something electronic, onboard the car that automatically adds penalty time to the overall race time or lap time. For example.

      Making run offs like ice is about as thought out as the rest of the comments here. 😴

      1. The kerbs aren’t placed on the track let alone the racing line. They’re a solid meter away so why are the drivers hitting them in the first place? You’re point just sounds like Verstappen little hissy fit. Keep the kerbs. Punish the drivers who abuse the track limits and let the genuine drivers who stay within the track limits reach the chequered flag with a structurally stable car

        1. @mattypf1 the kerbs on any track refer to the alternatively painted rumble strips which are placed directly on the edge of the available Tarmac usually, but not limited to, before and after a turn. It is totally legitimate to use them. Perhaps you should have thought more about my key point of “Rosberg not being outside of track limits when his suspension failed” he was no where near the additional Yellow “sausage kerbs” several corners later 😞

          1. Yes I did see that but I do realise Rosberg’s case was an unusual one but for the likes of Kvyat and Verstappen, the latter learning after the 2nd time, were abusing the limits and that’s why they should stay IMHO, to punish drivers who don’t respect the limits

            1. @mattpf1 once again you have totally missed my whole point; the frequency and amplitude of the alternatively painted “regular” kerbs is different at this track than other tracks. This is why I am saying they are too aggressive.

              The vibrations caused and thus built up in the cars suspension has caused a resonant frequency within the carbon structure high enough to shatter the carbon. It didn’t appear the PER suspension failed anywhere near the “sausage kerbs” and Kayat had his inside suspension fail. (This is highly debatable as he was on both types of kerb at the time) also we saw a structural failure of a Williams wing and a steering arm snap in Practice.

              I do not disagree with the use of the larger yellow “sausage kerbs” to dissuade drivers from excessive use of track limits. Indeed I didn’t even mention them in my OP.

    6. Now that button showed what the mclaren chassis is capable of when engine power becomes less of a factor, I really feel for alonso. Rain came at the wrong time for him. We could have had both mclarens in q3 in p5 and 6. Then with penalties applied, that would be p3 and 4. Ah well lets see how we can progress in the race

      1. Did McLaren race some other chassis in Monaco? Or did they fail to remove the sandbags from them? This is a very short track and whoever got to run later went faster. One more lap for others and McLaren would have been back to where they belong.

        I hope those who have been bashing RB (for bashing Renault) would also check if McLaren is giving due credit to Honda if/when their revival comes.

        Button was the last man to cross the flag with 5s remaining on the clock.

        1. Mclaren is in their second year with a Honda that does not deliver and both years it was worse than Renault yet they aren’t bashing in the way Red Bull did. Many where saying last year lets see how Mclaren will react if Honda isn’t good next year.
          Well there you have it, they still are treating them like a partner and they didn’t come from 4 successful championships with them and the first year wasn’t just bad but absolute nightmare and now still are worse than Renault was the second bad year with Red Bull.

    7. Treat the *outside of track limits* secondary curbing like a wall and suddenly your car won’t break.

      1. @bob-loblaw

        I think neither Rosberg or Perez were outside of track limits when the curbs shattered their suspensions

    8. Well, this theory that I have–that is to say, which is mine– …is mine.
      Increased tyre pressures are causing the suspension failures.
      That is the theory that I have and which is mine.

      1. A good observation @juan-fanger, of course the kerbs are necessary to activate the failure, another illustration of how LP18″ wheels will require a more compliant suspension design.

    9. I don’t know whether or not everyone saying “stay off the kerbs” and “treat the kerbs like a wall, like at Monaco” have ever raced cars (real, or in a competitive sim like iRacing) but the job of a racing driver is to go around the race track as fast as they possibly can. That is their job. That includes using the kerbs, even the big ones in some cases, because it’s the fastest way. Yes, a driver could stay off all the kerbs around the lap, but it would cost them a lot of time and they would be disadvantaged. They don’t treat it like a wall, because there is no wall there!

      The second part of this issue is the idea of policing track limits strictly. Firstly, how do you plan on doing that? Often it’s a case of inches or even millimetres between having part of one tyre on the track, or having all 4 off, so live monitoring by people is basically out of the question. An automated system using timing loops could be trialled, as is used by V8 Supercars in chicanes at some street circuits, all the reliability and therefore fairness of that system has been questioned in the past. Plus, with any automated system, there are going to be unusual circumstances which are difficult to account for. For example, a driver making a legitimate mistake and losing time rather than gaining, or a driver avoiding some debris, or a driver being forced wide by an opponent. Are these track limit violations too?

      Finally, even if you can come up with a perfect system to police track limits – how do you propose to penalise it? It’s not like you can go handing out drive-throughs (or even time penalties) every time someone runs off. That would not make a positive contribution to the racing, and you’d probably end up seeing most of the field being penalised for going a few inches wide at some point. Potential battles would be ruined because one driver would run a little wide under pressure and be removed from the battle.

      So bearing all this in mind, what is the solution? Well, it has to be some kind of physical deterrent that is self policing. If we look at walls or grass, it’s obvious how they work. Grass slows you down, and perhaps more importantly, it’s not a binary result (binary meaning you’re on the track or you’re off the track and receive penalty X – only two outcomes). Basically, with grass, the more off track you are, the more you’ll be slowed down. Even walls at Monaco are non binary. A little tap is fine, just a warning. A bigger hit could cause a little damage (but non terminal), and an even bigger one will end your race. So that’s at least 4 outcomes (including not hitting the wall). Big kerbs are not self policing in my mind (or at least they do so very poorly) because they do not slow you down until you’ve hit them enough times, or on a bad enough angle, to break your suspension. Until then it’s beneficial to use them, so drivers are forced to do so to make sure they are driving fast enough.

      To cap off a comment that’s longer than I’d hoped it would be (sorry), this is the main thing I wanted to bring up (I just felt the preceding paragraphs were necessary to state my position). Is grass really that dangerous? Firstly, if it is really some kind of devilish substance that has no place on a race track, then it would have been removed from existing race tracks already. But it hasn’t, because it’s not a big problem. In fact the two big incidents I can remember in F1 was Petrov being launched into the air in Malaysia 2011, and then Raikkonen losing control at Silverstone in 2014. Yes, these were big crashes, but they were both caused by copious asphalt run off in the first place, as the drivers hit the edge of the grass while rejoining from said run off at high speed. Meanwhile, we are seeing all these incidents with broken suspension, which particularly in the case of Kvyat’s accident, could have been quite nasty if he had hit the end of the pit barrier harder, or T-boned another car. We also frequently see cars being launched off these kerbs at high speed (particularly in junior formulae where the racing is close and intense). Are they really safer than grass?

      I’m fine with having tarmac run off straight on from a corner if that’s a better surface for an out of control car to encounter, but why do we need it on the exit of a corner? Something like what they have at Phillip Island’s Honda Hairpin (turn 4) should suffice – if drivers miss the corner and go past a dotted line marked on the run off surface, they have to continue down the escape road and take the long route back to the track, penalising a big mistake with a big penalty. Small mistakes are penalised less, because if they don’t make it to the dotted line they can rejoin the track straight away, and there’s no track limits issues due to no tarmac on the exit. Simple.

      1. By the way, in the mean time, I’m all for taking away a driver’s lap for violating track limits in qualifying, I think that’s a good idea. But it’s the race itself I’m concerned about, it’s a whole different kettle of fish.

      2. @vmaxmuffin @keithcollantine
        I haven’t commented since long…but I fear that this makes much more sense, the comment, the idea than most here. Including COTD.
        Drivers are meant to go fast, and we wish to watch racing. So what if all of them push the limits of the track regularly? They’ll go faster, they’ll take bigger risks, we’ll see battles to not be decided by someone going off track.

      3. Lewisham Milton
        3rd July 2016, 11:11

        Yes, it’s a sudden change of surface that’s dangerous, from grippy to slippy (onto paint or grass) or smooth to uneven, or cars getting launched out of drainage ditches.
        I haven’t seen these kerb incidents (because they’re on pay-TV, thanks Bernie) but as well as bringing back some of the old Österreichring at the start of the lap, they should bring back the fast final corner too, and the problem would magically go away.

        1. The thing is, having a car getting airborne over a kerb is also a sudden loss of grip and a change from smooth to uneven surface, so it’s really no different.

      4. @vmaxmuffin It’s true that driver job is to go around the track as fast as they can, but they not entitled to reshape the track. People who said treat it like a wall (me included) doesn’t meant they shouldn’t ride over all kerb, but stay away if it will break your car. Just like you stay away from walls because it will break your car if you stubbornly want to widen the track with it there.

        1. @Sonics
          Go race some things. Even if it’s just simulation like iRacing etc. Then you will understand.

    10. I have seen these suspension failures before in offroad racing, it’s a harmonic resonance buildup, the length of the suspension arm will be in tune with the peak to peak length of the red curbs. The peak input load is not massive, but is resonates like a kid on a swing.

      The problem could be solved by changing the suspension arm length, avoiding the bumps, or strengthening the arm to cope. Also the mandated high tyre pressure is transmitting a lot more force to the suspension than ever before.

      1. It’ll change with the wider cars – arms will be longer next year and I’ve no idea what pressures they’ll run in the new tyres. I seem to remember more bent and snapped suspension parts before when cars were wider (mainly from collisions), but there’s been 20 years of development in materials and manufacturing since then. I expect most teams will still go for speed and lightness (and end up spending way more), rather than strength.

        1. And off course next year the teams will know of this issue so they can react to it in building their cars too, maybe changing the exact laying of the carbon fibre etc.

    11. Just to open up the debate in regards to the COTD, imagine a situation where drivers don’t get greedy and stay within the track limits only to find out that another driver has pushed just a little bit harder, slightly clipped the kerbs, didn’t damage the car and have just gone a bit faster.

      Just like the throttle, pushing limit is a continuous process where they try to outdo each other, remember they’re competing and its easy to become selfish while doing so and trust me, we wouldn’t do anything different.

      In the olden days, drivers were approaching it cautiously because there were no run offs or rumble strips or flat kerbs.

    12. A lot of this kerb discussion going around is typical internet kneejerk reactions. If you think about kerbs and what they are support to do it seems that the high kerb might do a little more damage then good. There seems to be this line of thinking that drivers should be punished severly when they leave the track. While i don’t mind that, i do think it should be in a controlled way and not turning the car into a dangerous projectile.

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