Christian Horner, Toto Wolff, Red Bull Ring, 2016

Mercedes too dominant to need team orders – Horner

F1 Fanatic Round-up

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In the round-up: Red Bull team principal Christian Horner joins those questioning the need for Red Bull to use team orders.

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Has F1 allowed more disparity to arise by having the three top teams handle the 2017 tyre tests?

So we know which three teams will have the advantage next season then.

With tyres in the current era been so critical to performance and results any extra track time you have over a rival is going to give you a far greater understanding of how the tyres work and that is going to give you a huge advantage over the other teams.

They should have ensured that every team could take part in these test’s (by Pirelli, the FIA and FOM footing all costs) or not had them at all because doing it this way is simply not fair to those who aren’t taking part.

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Nigel Mansell had to pass Alain Prost twice to win the French Grand Prix 25 years ago today, the first to be held at Magny-Cours.

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  • 45 comments on “Mercedes too dominant to need team orders – Horner”

    1. I started reading that road and track article thinking the quote about the FIA letting Hamilton do what he wanted was from an interview with Rosberg. I realised partway through it was an opinion piece, and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

      “In a perfect world, Nico’s behavior would be rewarded, setting a good example for the next generation of drivers which includes my son.”

      His recent behaviour was rewarded, 10 seconds and 2 penalty points, and it sets a great example for the guys son that outright dirty tactics as opposed to hard, but within the rules racing isn’t the way to a championship.

      1. Sounds a lot like some of the sentiments coming from establishment types in F1. Nico is the good boy, the smart boy, the boy who won’t be intimidated. It’s amazing, if Lewis keeps winning and surpasses Prost this year, people will start rioting. Lolz. I don’t know if I will be able to stomach F1 next year, but I am enjoying it while it lasts. While Hamilton still has half a shot at winning, despite his own team.

        1. This Mercedes is trying to hurt Hamilton is really ruining my enjoyment of the comments.

          He won two championships with them! Two! And he might very well make it a third! Do you not see how that kinda completely contradicts any idea that they are trying to hurt him? Why the hell do they keep renewing his contract? It makes no sense! Surely if they wanted Germans winning they’d have hired a second German instead! There’s not even a shortage to pick from.


          1. @mike +1! Re: “It makes no sense!”, fanaticism is incompatible with objective logic.

      2. What outright dirty tactics are you referring to? Rosberg made it clear he wanted to keep Hamilton on the outside line while giving him some space. That didn’t work out and the revelation of brake failure shades a whole new light on the incident. I’ve asked this before: was it Rosberg who put his front wing under Hamilton’s tires or Hamilton who put his tires over Romberg’s front wing?
        And what hard racing are you referring to? The one where one pushes the other off the track without giving space? And then saying the other should have backed off or should have known that the former was always going to do that?
        I’m no fan of any of Mercedes’ drivers or of the team for that matter. But the hypocrisy in some fans knows no limits and facts are looked at through rose-tinted glasses.

        1. you can think that if you want but two glaring items come to mind…

          1. The only way Nico would have bettered Lewis out of that turn, coming so late on the brakes would have been to run Lewis off the track, and completely off line.

          2. Nico never turned to make the corner, he blocked Lewis from turning, until Lewis turned. Maybe too much faith in Nico from Lewis’ stand point.

          Spa, Spain and Austria, When Nico panics, he runs in to people. Deliberately.

          1. But in Austin, Suzuka and Canada Hamilton did the same: running into Rosberg or at least push him of track. Which is okay! That’s part of racing! Please let them battle, and sometimes Hamilton wins, sometimes Rosberg and sometimes none of them.

            1. @favomodo Hamilton is a harsh wheel-to-wheel racer, but at least he tries to at least pretend that he’s trying to make the corner when pushing a rival wide.

            2. @favomodo It’s been debated in about half a dozen other threads over the last week how different the incident in Austria was to all the examples cited of Hamilton “doing the same thing”.

              Lot’s of things are “the same” when viewed in simple terms. The Manor car is doing “the same thing” as the works Mercedes car, 4 wheels, an engine, some wings and aero surfaces. It’s subtle differences that mark out right and wrong, exceptional and mediocre. If you haven’t read the other threads debating it I’d recommend to as there are some interesting points made. If you have and don’t understand the difference then debating it again here won’t help any further.

        2. You’d have to give me a while to gather my arguments, I’m not sure any of these points have been debated to death yet over the last week.

      3. Initially I actually laughed at the Road and Track article. Then though, I felt really sad that ignorance on this level exists and, what’s more, this fool from R&T gets to write nonsense and possibly influence people.

        In addition to that, we can still see from some comments that there is also amazing ignorance of racing etiquette, I mean, there are still people claiming Nico did nothing wrong on Sunday!

        1. @paulguitar Pretty sure you were supposed to laugh at that article full stop. But then, there has been no end to the booing toward Nico, Niki, Toto, and Mercedes all week. So why should the overreaction to this article be any different, right?

          Tongue in cheek article aside, freedom of speech allows that people get to say stuff, and other people can educate themselves and agree or disagree, or remain uneducated and get influenced, or any level of degrees in between.

          Don’t worry though…I won’t let what you have said influence me.

          1. @robbie
            I just re-read the article, I must honesty say if it is meant to be a subtle piece of satire then it has totally gone over my head, as it seems to me to have been written seriously.

            Oh well, perhaps I am getting old……..:)

            I did smile at your ‘I won’t let what you have said influence me’ though, so perhaps there is hope for me yet………..:)

            Let’s hope for a good clean fight at Silverstone this weekend, I am amped up already for this one.

    2. The roadandtrack article is utter drivel.

      1. Couldn’t agree with you more

        1. Surprised such an article is in the round up at all to be honest.

          1. Because it’s fun? Come on, don’t be so serious.

    3. The Agony of Being a Nico Rosberg Fan (Road and Track) –

      What a load of nonsense that article is spewing, maybe if watched the races he would know better.

      So now its Charlie Whiting and the fact that Lewis is British that Nico loses, I honestly see the FIA giving Nico so much benefit of doubt when it comes to incidents over their time as team mates.

      Hamilton is no angel but let’s not prop up Rosberg when is not up to the task, it doesn’t matter if one spends his days of living life while the other is at home or in the factory practising, at the end of the day the most important aspect is how they perform on the track.

      These days of celebrity worship has given people a sense of entitlement of others lives, I watch F1 for the racing and couldn’t give a f— what drivers do in THEIR time off, I am not looking at Hamilton to set standards for my kids, it’s not his responsibility.

      1. not his responsibility …. dangerous words. :) :) :)

      2. @xusen The article writer has obviously forgotten that Nico’s move on Alonso in Bahrain ’12 was what caused the entire ‘one car width’ rule to be introduced in the first place

        1. @optimaximal Hmmm…had to rewatch a video to remind myself if FA ever had any part of his car ahead of any part of Nico’s, and he didn’t. How do you ‘run someone off the track’ when they are always fully behind? FA declares in anger ‘at all times you have to leave space.’ Really? Nico caused a rule change? Really? You sure about that? And I guess it remains up for debate anyway, rule or not, because Nico did the same thing to LH when LH actually had his front wing beside NR’s rear tire, and LH ended up taking both of them out in his stubbornness that there was actually going to be a gap to Nico’s right…and it was deemed a racing incident. Just as it is not true that ‘at all times you have to leave a space.’

    4. Has there ever been a rivalry that’s been debated this much in the world of F1. Sure we had Senna v Prost etc but I wasn’t around back then. Over the last 2 years I feel like every day there’s a new debate on which Mercedes driver is mentally weak or is a cheater or gets preferential treatment with famous faces of the sport constantly chipping in. My honest opinion is that Nico and Lewis present themselves as two of the biggest manchildren I’ve ever seen, but I guess that’s part of what makes them bloody good drivers.

      1. @davef1
        Alonso vs Hamilton was the hottest debating topic from 2007 to 2010, but then Vettel began winning consistently and from 2011-2013 the debate turned into “Alonso and Hamilton vs Vettel/Newey”.

        Schumacher vs Hakkinen was also very debated back in the day, and it lasted a good 3 years (1998-2000), but Hakkinen was never nasty enough for this rivalry to get truly heated.

        1. Let’s not forget Vettel/RBR vs. Webber. ;-)
          (As far as rivalry debates that was pretty persistent.)

      2. “what makes them bloody good drivers”
        That’s funny :)

        What disgusts me is that despite the awful driving from both Mercedes drivers this year, there’s still one of the two that’s gonna come home with the championship.

    5. I like Jolyon Palmer. He has the personality of a straight shooting racing driver, no holds barred, articulate and more importantly, seems very sure of himself. The only problem is…he isnt very good.

      Should Renault give him more time? Perhaps. But this is a results oriented business. If you arent delivering the goods, you’re off, especially if there’s a highly regarded rookie waiting in the wings. I’m sure JP has his reasons for not being up to scratch, but given how competitive the race to the F1 grid is, you’d have to hit the ground running, which he clearly has not.

      I’d probably put some money on Ocon starting a couple races before the end of the season.

      1. @jaymenon10 Agreed, time to get up to scratch is certainly not allowed for a GP2 champion. And Palmer made too many errors so far even if that car is a real dog.

        I think Palmer had already signed or was about to even before Renault’s takeover of Lotus which came very late (hence Grosjean’s departure), so late that finding another driver was probably not possible?

        And now with Ocon hanging around I wouldn’t be surprised either that he takes the drive even before the end of the season if Palmer does not deliver and for sure in 2017 no matter what.

    6. Saw all the interviews and I find that Totto’s concern is not about the constructors cup, that’s already in the bag for sure.

      He seems to be upset that Lewis n Nico are ruining the image of Mercedes worldwide.

      Imagine reading headlines like “mercedes drivers collide again with race winning car” several times in a year. Non F1 fans will think the cars are being driven by amatuers.

      1. ColdFly F1 (@)
        7th July 2016, 6:02

        Quite the opposite @redbullf1, that’s exactly what corporate Mercedes wants to see.
        The more articles, opinions, comments, and mentions the better. The’d love to see rebels in their car who make the headlines and polarise opinions (especially if they have one driver in each camp).
        The only thing they don’t want to see is technical issues which cost them the win. I’m sure that they are much more worried about a BBW problem than dirty tricks by drivers, smashed hotel rooms, or inflammatory comments by a non-exec.

        1. Maybe the corporate likes it but definitely not Totto.

          He said crashing in the race between their drivers ruins the motivation of his 15000 engineers and that is something he doesn’t want to have in the future, disappointed engineers!

          1. @redbullf1 he says it, but they probably don’t care if an accident is a result of a good racing battle.

            The crash in Spain is bad because it’s a total write-off. What happened in Austria was edge of seat will he/won’t he racing, where one racer pushed it to far and came off worse as a result.

            1. @optimaximal They will care a lot, they get massive bonuses for results on track. The odd races here and there they wont care but if it happened every other race they certainly would, the would be losing £10,000+ in bonuses.

            2. ColdFly F1 (@)
              7th July 2016, 9:39

              @woodyd91, they received a bonus each for winning the WCC title (£7,000 IIRC); not single races.
              But Mercedes is that far ahead (and superior) that they can afford it. They won by 275 points last year, which means they can lose 6 points for another 44 races and still win (or 29 times if you include the bonus points for the competition). I know that Bernie likes to fill up the calendar (=coffers), but those amount won’t happen ;-)

              And as one smart cookie on this site once mentioned, it is actually better to miss a few points here and there as the FIA license fee depends on the amount of championship points the previous season.

        2. I tend to agree with @coldfly; @redbullf1, technical issues reflect on the cars they sell; Drama raises their profile, potentially with an audience that wasn’t before considering buying their cars: younger people who have many decades to live. Even if Toto, as F1 teammananger doesn’t like too much drama, the bosses in Stuttgart might well have less problems with it after speaking to their PR/marketing people.

    7. Ha-ha! Cry baby cry. No more gift’s for RBR like Spanish and Austrian.

    8. The Road and Track article made my day, and I’m amused so many of the commenters didn’t get this deep sense of irony. I especially loved the Instagram and tattoo part, and the offer to make Kvyat the World Champion ;)

    9. That road and track article is utter nonsense. We all want our various favourites to do well, but there is no need to get your tinfoil hat out when things aren’t going their way.

      1. ColdFly F1 (@)
        7th July 2016, 11:03

        Com’on @geemac, it’s humour.
        Not sure what to call it: satirical, farcical, or maybe even parodic; but humorous it is (intended to be).

        I’m surprised how many people fell for this.

        1. @coldfly Call me old fashioned but when I was a boy things had to be funny to be classified as humour…

        2. @coldfly, the problem is that the author of that particular piece has written some somewhat strange opinion pieces in the past that were meant to be taken seriously. He might have meant the article to come across as a joke, but I can see why there would be those who thought he was serious.

    10. Mercedes are only ‘dominant’ because Ferrari have themselves tripped up so frequently this season. Strategy, pit stops and a turbo failure at Melbourne, a power unit failure at Bahrain, team mates colliding at China, Vettel wiped out at Russia, qualifying and strategy errors at Spain, Raikkonen crashing and another strategy error at Monaco, strategy yet again at Canada and a tyre failure whilst in the lead after a gearbox penalty at Austria. And supposedly Hamilton is the one with all of the ‘bad luck’.

      Had those things not happened to a team which was so well-drilled last season, then the whole team orders debate at Mercedes may have been a very different story.

    11. What a biased and immature article in Road and Track – Agony of Rosberg fan.

      1. @neelv27 Relax, that’s called ‘humour’, you know?

        1. Well then it seemed pretty humourless to many!

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