2002 Malaysian Grand Prix start

Which teams will still be in F1 in ten years’ time?

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2002 Malaysian Grand Prix start
Just four of the 11 teams from 2002 remain

Of the 11 teams which contested the 2002 season, just four remain on the grid ten years later.

And of those, one has been taken over and then sold again in the intervening period.

Manufacturers come and go

Peugeot’s shock announcement on Wednesday that it was scrapping its endurance racing team served as a reminder that teams backed by car manufacturers can disappear with little warning.

Those in F1 have recent experience of this – Renault, Honda, BMW and Toyota have all set up and then abandoned F1 projects within the last decade, though Renault remain as an engine supplier.

Other manufacturers have demonstrated greater staying power: none more so than Ferrari, the only team left from the first year of the world championship in 1950.

Having had an F1 team in the fifties, Mercedes returned to the sport as an engine supplier in 1994, and became a full works outfit again two years ago.

Which teams will still be in F1 in 2022?

  • Red Bull (12%)
  • McLaren (22%)
  • Ferrari (22%)
  • Mercedes (10%)
  • Lotus (5%)
  • Force India (4%)
  • Sauber (6%)
  • Toro Rosso (2%)
  • Williams (10%)
  • Caterham (6%)
  • HRT (0%)
  • Marussia (1%)

Total Voters: 486

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McLaren are taking their first steps as a car manufacturer. Lotus, following a lengthy legal battle, have now united their F1 team with their car manufacturing operation.

Other teams with affiliations to car manufacturers are Caterham (formerly Lotus) and Marussia (formerly Virgin) – both teams which first entered the sport in 2010.

The independents

Of the rest, Williams have been active the longest, but are mired in their worst-ever losing streak.

World champions, Red Bull, and their young driver training school Toro Rosso, are financed by the vast sums Dietrich Mateschitz has made selling cans of energy drinks.

Force India are entering their fifth season but it remains to be seen whether the problems affecting parts of Vijay Mallya’s financial empire will have an effect on his F1 team.

Having been briefly taken over by BMW, Sauber are an independent team once more. Owner Peter Sauber was enticed back to the sport when the team he created threatened to disappear at the end of 2009.

And finally there’s HRT, who only made it into the sport by the skin of their teeth in 2010 when Grupo Hispania took over Adrian Campos’s entry, and changed hands again last year. We wait to see if 2012 will see the team continue their tradition of shaking down their new car at the first race of the season.

Lost names

Mika Salo, Toyota, Melbourne, 2002
Toyota: arrived in 2002, left in 2009, now returning to Le Mans

Running a Formula 1 team is a fearfully expensive business even for those running around at the back of the field. The casualties of the 2002-2011 period include names like Arrows and Minardi, who spent decades in the sport and started hundreds of races.

Other lost names include Jordan, BAR, Renault, Jaguar, Arrows, Minardi, Toyota, Honda, BMW-Sauber, Midland, Super Aguri, Spyker, Brawn and Virgin.

What does the future hold for the current 12 entrants – one-quarter of which have changed names over the winter? Do they have what it takes to last another decade in F1? And is the high rate of turnover among teams bad for the sport?

Cast your vote in the poll and have your say in the comments.

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F1 teams 2002-2012

This chart shows the championship positions achieved by all the teams that have competed in F1 in the last ten years. Use the controls below to hide or show different teams:


Red Bull7757211
Force India10976
Toro Rosso9761098
BMW Sauber52368
Super Aguri11911

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Author information

Keith Collantine
Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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121 comments on “Which teams will still be in F1 in ten years’ time?”

  1. Can’t see Ferrari or McLaren going anywhere, all the others I can see the possibility they might not be there in 10 years.

    1. Yep that’s my feeling… McLaren and Ferrari are the only two I’d actually bet money on being there in 10 years.

      The rest are all at risk.

      1. Yep the same again. I think these two are solid. But Mercedes could do a BMW and Toyota and quit if results don’t arrive. Red Bull and Toro Rosso could end up being sold on, although the RB team less likely.
        Peter Sauber will have gone in 10 years, Force India have had 5 names in last 10 years so to stay as they are for 10 years will be unlikely. Williams I feel will be wound up by then. Lotus are not a stable team yet, the 3 newer teams are all likely to be sold on or go bust.

        1. I disagree about the the new teams. I see Caterham actually staying for a long time.

  2. This has given me an idea. How about an independents championship inside the current format. Have the world championship where all teams compete, then a constructers championship for manufacturers and an independents championship for teams like Williams and force india.

    1. Sounds a lot like Touring Cars. Whilst we’re going down that route let’s have success ballast too ;)

      1. I totally agree on success ballast. Works well in GT1, titles there went right to the last race… unlike Formula 1 this season.

        1. Your memory only spans 3 months back in time? Can’t rely on that sort of information then.

        2. @nick-uk F1’s 2010 season went right down to the last race though.

          Success ballast doesn’t really do much for me to be honest. I don’t see the point of it.

          It’s like reducing a football team down to 10 men because they’re occupying the top spot.

      2. I’d rather see a “Tier 2” F1 championship, with same rules as F1. The winner of this replaces the last place runner of the current F1 grid every year, much like in certain football leagues.

        This would let teams come in with a lower budget, and learn everything while competing with teams of similar experience/budget. My problem with GP2 is that it’s just too different from F1, and too much like other lower formulas, so all that technical competition is almost non-existent.

        1. So all of the development problems and headaches of F1 and none of the glory. I think there’s plenty of scope and demand for a 2nd F1 standard championship but the teams racing it shouldn’t be developing their cars greatly. FIA should develop a F1 spec series but with standard chassis and engine which draws it’s main inspiration from a midfield challenger from last year. This would give drivers the experience of driving f1 cars in anger – one of the main bug bears of the teams of the moment is lack of experience in the up and coming drivers. Management and engineers would get a chance to find out what it takes to run f1 cars while not occurring a great deal of cost.

          1. Nah, the idea is exactly to let smaller teams, like Virgin and HRT race with other teams of the same caliber. This way these teams would get more screen-time (hence sponsors, hence money) and a broader range of drivers could actually get a drive.

            The natural order of selection would take care that if your team is too good to be in T2, it will advance to T1. It seems to be working quite well in other sports, why not F1. T2 teams will generally be smaller, with less money, so slower cars, but we’re still talking about 3-4 seconds slower a lap, which you would not notice when they are not lapped by Red Bull and Ferrari.

            I really think it would make F1 more accessible to new teams, as there could and would be a learning curve and not ultradeep water.

            Yes it would still be expensive, but not 300-500 million a year, just 50. Just a thought though…

    2. A similar idea was used in 1987 for normally-aspirated cars, which were generally uncompetitive against the turbos – the Jim Clark (drivers) and Colin Chapman (teams) cups. The idea wasn’t carried over into 1988, I don’t think people relished the idea of a two tier formula so it didn’t really capture the imagination.

      How would you define “independent” and “manufacturer”? Red Bull are presumably independent but what about McLaren?

      1. Yeah I’ve realised go difficult it would be to categorise the teams. I think. Manufactures would be c,assed as companies that produce over a certain amount of cars in a given period. Independents would be non car producers or very very small ones so yeah red bull would be independent.

        1. You mean red bull don’t manufacture? these?

        2. I don’t get your point.
          Being a car manufacturer does not give an advantage in F1, so why would the other teams need a separate trophy?

          1. You could argue it gives you the advantage of extra cash. Much the same as it does in other forms of motorsport.

            Ultimately, I think it’s a flawed idea as (if you class a manufacturer as a company who mass-produce road cars) you could well end up with only Ferrari contesting the Manufacturer’s trophy and everyone else contesting the independants. Which would completely ruin the credibility of the sport as a whole. It would also vastly complicate things in terms of awarding prise money. You could end up with an “independant” team finishing 4th overall but winning more money than the teams who came 2nd/3rd because they won a trophy. Can’t see any of the bigger teams willing to agree to something like that.

            On the plus side, it allows the “smaller” teams a degree of success in their own right. I know in BTCC it is quite a big thing for the independant, or customer, teams.

            I was also only joking about success ballast in my other post, I think it’s a bit of a gimmick to be honest.

      2. Would Ferrari (pre-FIAT) be classified as a manufacturer or an independent ?

    3. Doesn’t make any sense for anyone as we currently have an independent winning everything, it might be different if independents were always below the works teams and could not realistically compete in the championship but they can.

      In the last 5 years it is 3 vs 2 to independents, the opposite to other categories in motor.

    4. Don’t get it… how do you define independent ?

  3. Dont forget Mercedes originated as Tyrell back in the 60s and Red Bull began as Stewart GP and Jordan have had a few names since they began. There is scope for a “Rock Family Tree” of GP teams, the in fighting and machinations would make a great article.

    1. If you look at it like that we only lost 2 teams since then (Toyota and Arrows). Then there’s the 4 that are around with the same name. The rest have all changed there name at least once.

      I think we will be in the same situation in 2022. The new teams proved it is extremely difficult starting from scratch, so if there is new teams wanting to enter I find it likely they buy out a team already on the grid. The only teams we might lose are HRT and Marussia. Then it’s also a safe bet Ferrari, Mclaren and Williams (hopefully with factory support!) are still around. As for the rest of the grid, I think they will still be there but maybe under a different name.

      1. I agree, I think it will simply be further evolutions of current facilities. I think HRT may be lucky to survive this season let alone 10 years! All this talk about restructuring sounds a bit “smoke and mirrors” to me! Williams need a turn around in fortunes but most of the others will still be there in some form. It’s manufacturers who have to bow to shareholder opinion and operate with accountanting philosophy that are generally most transient.

    2. It was Matra International before it was Tyrrell (1968-69).

  4. I hope Williams is around still.

    1. Hope so too but I don’t think Frank will be around.

  5. It’s a slightly odd question, as we know many of the names that have left F1 only really changed ownership while the actual team remained fairly stable.
    It comes down to who we feel is actually more important in the team, those that produce the car and manage the racing or the people who organise the money.
    Yes, there are a few names it would be terrible to see leave F1 because of the associated heritage but the teams would likely remain under another name.

    1. @samc

      we know many of the names that have left F1 only really changed ownership while the actual team remained fairly stable.

      I understand the distinction you’re making but I don’t agree that the continuity overrides the change.

      Take Stewart, Jaguar and Red Bull, for example. Ford decided they wanted an F1 team, took over Jackie Stewart’s outfit, then gave up after five years and put it up for sale. The team’s employees sat in the Shanghai pit lane holding up a “for sale” sign and thankfully Mateschitz came along.

      This was not a smooth progression between three similar identities. Since 1997 they’ve been an independent team set up by a former world champion, a premium car manufacturer, and now a soft drinks brand.

      You ask do our loyalties instead lie with the people who produce the cars, but they change too – Bobby Rahal and Niki Lauda are long gone, and Adrian Newey was with McLaren when Stewart first entered F1.

      My point is, we have lost something by having fewer teams in it for the long run like Ferrari, McLaren and Williams. Other team sports seem not to have the problem – I doubt we’ll see Manchester United or the Dallas Cowboys rebranding themselves. Wouldn’t we rather have Minardi and Brabham than Midland and Spyker?

      1. I don’t think we do lose anything as the drivers are really the stars. They are nationally backed as well which adds an International flavour to it other team sports don’t really have. It’s a truly global sport.

        p.s quite a few American Football teams have re-branded, so have football teams in the UK. There is actually another Manchester United team which started up in defiance of the Glazer takover

        1. @paulipedia

          the drivers are really the stars

          I’m sure that’s true for a lot of people but not everyone – go to Monza and they cheer the Ferraris more than the Italian drivers. Remember Imola ’83.

          1. No sorry didn’t go to that one.

            Ok they are the exception that proves the rule, Ferrari are unique and so are Italians

          2. The crowd cheered when Patrese – an Italian driver leading a race in Italy – crashed, handing the lead to a French driver, Tambay, in a Ferrari.

          3. i remember patrese’s accident. And people cheering.
            By the way keith, i was asking james allen how he compares petrov and de cesaris, two drivers with some similarities in my view.
            Would you consider an article comparing actual drivers with the ones in the past?
            Now that we are talking about patrese,i see some similarities with webber?

      2. @keithcollantine Quite a good picture that, thanks for sharing it!

    2. I am with SamC on this one. Name is almost irrelevant (now we could quote that Shakespeare’s bit about a rose to show that the fans of F1 are highly cultured people :-) ), but (referring to Keith’s remarks) so are to some extend people. I wonder whether one could find one single person who is with Ferrari or McLaren now and was there 50 years ago. But I strongly feel that there si some continuity of ideas and culture in teams, people change gradually and newcomers are incorporated into existing organism, there is an accumulation of experience and all such things. These do not change when a new owner comes.

      So for instance “Lotus” is an empty brand name for me now, they have absolutely nothing in common with the real thing. When somebody says “I am a Lotus fan”, I automatically think of Colin Chapman’s outfit (lately this caused me to misunderstand some comments here on F1fan at first reading). On the other hand I had a soft spot for BAR and Honda due to their connection with the only successfull 6-wheeler, one of my favourite cars, although I realize this borders on highly irrational. Then again, being a fan of F1 (or anything else) is hardly a rational choice anyway :-).

  6. Ferrari are a lock, Maccas pretty safe, Red Bull are safe while D.M. is alive. The rest could go but i hope Williams bounces back,, and Fernandes does well.

    1. All those that are dependent on one key individual are at risk of that individual changing their mind.

  7. I think they’ll all be in the sport a decade from now – but whether or not they are running under the same names is another matter entirely.

    1. I think you will find most people will agree with you, but it is clear in the article that the issue Keith is raising for debate is whether or not the constant changing of names is good for the sport or not, and which of the current teams you believe this issue is most likely to affect.

      I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

      1. whether or not the constant changing of names is good for the sport or not

        Yes. A team’s name should always be representative of the sport’s ownership. Why should a team be forced to run under somebody else’s name and somebody else’s identity?

        I actually don’t think this will be too big a problem in the future. It’s probably going to be one of the things the 2012 Concorde Agreement addresses.

        1. Sorry, but “A team’s name should always be representative of the sport’s ownership.” should actually read “A team’s name should always be representative of their ownership.”

    2. The privateer teams will probably still be there and they’re also the least likely to change names, I’d say. Red Bull Racing is just a marketing tool and I think they’d disappear as soon as they realised they’d got enough from the sport.

  8. Keith, I think you have interpreted the meaning “team” kinda strict. Many teams today have continuety from past “teams”. I mean the current Red Bull comes from the same plant as the last Laguar., just like team Lotus today still comes from the same Benetton Renault and so on.

    IMO, if you take out the name/ownership changes out of the equatiion, teams have alot more continuity in the timeline.

    1. I think you have interpreted the meaning “team” kinda strict

      I disagree. The FIA don’t recognise Mercedes as originating from Tyrrel for example. If a team changes ownership and name then it becomes a “new” team in the FIA’s eyes.

      1. Sure, but that’s not the point. The FIA has to do for legal arguments. But informally a team is not suddenly a completely different team when the name is changed. No it’s still the same team, but probably with fresh investment en new teamleaders, so it continues to exist, albeit in a slightly “mutated” form.

  9. There isn’t much doubt McLaren and Ferrari will still be there, but for the rest, I am unsure. Judging by recent history, I believe Mercedes will stay for a while, but maybe not ten years as a full works team.

    I don’t believe Lotus, Marussia, Toro Rosso, Force India or HRT will be around in there current formats in ten years, mostly due to financial pressures.

    I find Red Bull and Caterham more difficult to decide on. I believe Tony intends to be in it for the long haul, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they were to change in some way within ten years. Red Bull I hope and somewhat expect to stick around for a long while.

    Then there is the long standing Independants Williams and Sauber. There history doesn’t give them or even there names any sort of security. We almost saw the end of Sauber and as seen by the fall and demise of legendary teams such as Brabham and Original Lotus, There is certainly cause for concern regarding Williams. My opinion is we will see both names still in the sport in ten years though, maybe with a relationship such as BMW Sauber.

    1. @Silverkeg

      Red Bull I hope and somewhat expect to stick around for a long while.

      They have been active as a sponsor since the mid-eighties, I think. They put a huge amount of money into marketing their brand. I suspect the team will be around for a good while yet – barring any major upheaval in F1, they’ve got a good chance of making it to 2012.

      1. @Keithcollantine Well I would certainly hope they have a good chance of making it to 2012!! :P

  10. All the teams will still be in F1 it’s just some of them will have different names.

    I think if you are a hardcore fan you don’t “really” care which badge is on the front

    1. ha have just read other comments and people seem to be in agreement.

      Maybe rephrase the question as which Team names will still be around.

      I wouldn’t put my money on Williams, they have no brand value unless they start making sports cars or tie up with a big manufacturer again, which should happen but probably won’t.

      Just look what happened to Lotus and they make production cars.

    2. @paulipedia

      I think if you are a hardcore fan you don’t “really” care which badge is on the front

      A fan of what? The team in question, or F1 in general?

      1. F1 in general. Yes I think fans would be absolutely gutted if Williams stopped racing as they have so much history.

        But just look back at the records and see how many names have come and gone. Ultimately it’s the racing we really care about

  11. I would say that the likes of McLaren and Ferrari to remain are almost a certainty (remain with the same chassis name).

    For the rest of the entries, its hard to tell really. I do expect most of the existing outfits to be there in one form or another in a decade. But many might have changed names, or even did so repeatedly.

    Mercedes might fall by a management board refocussing on something else, although one would think they might want to give it a chance of winning rather than end up building a winning car they never raced, like this outfit already saw once.
    Both Marussia and Caterham will have a spell of at least another 5-10 years, before these car manufacturers can really reap the efforts of being in F1, and I would expect investors in both to be fully aware of it. Although its not certain they will be able to do so, the markets they focus on are growing.

    Red Bull is making sure both their outfits will be at least very solid investments if they ever decide they need to go to something else to wow the crowds, and as Joe Saward writes it will be mainly because of deminishing returns if they do so. If they want to go Asian, then its more or less the same story as for Caterham and Marussia.I guess Lotus can be seen in the same way, although its investors are far more dodgy and might be needing to sell before reaping in any returns.

    In fact, the only one’s not being there in any form, might be Williams – a team so traditional and established that if it bancrupts, it might be hard to find a buyer who will take the whole of it, and HRT who do not have much in terms of real value to anyone who would want to buy an F1 team.

  12. A lot of people noted that we should take into consideration actual team (bases) besides team ownerships.

    I once made a short list about the origins of the current teams, I’ll paste it here:

    Ferrari (1950)
    McLaren (1966)
    Mercedes=Brawn=Honda=BAR=Tyrrell (1970)
    Williams (1978)
    Lotus=Renault=Benetton=Toleman (1981)
    Toro Rosso=Minardi (1985)
    Force India=Midland=Jordan (1991)
    Sauber (1993)
    Red Bull=Jaguar=Stewart (1997)
    Caterham=Lotus (2010)
    HRT (2010)
    Marussia=Virgin (2010)

    1. As stated above, Mercedes goes back to 1968 (Matra International).

    2. I don’t agree, when a team changes hands, even if it’s the same team F1 has still lost a team.

      I mean, Yes, it’s from that origin, but I don’t think you can say that Lotus as the original Toleman Spirit.

      1. I mean, Yes, it’s from that origin, but I don’t think you can say that Lotus as the original Toleman Spirit.

        I think you meant “Toleman spirit” – Spirit of course being a team in their own right which entered F1 in 1983 to provide a low-key test-bed for Honda’s then new turbo engine. The team went bust and sold its tyre contract to none other than Toleman, which managed to alienate Pirelli and Goodyear by switching to Michelin (which promptly withdrew from F1).

      2. But often the teams are the same, just with different names/branding etc. Like the way Force India still has members that were there in the Jordan days.

        1. Does Jordan = Force India?

          I think the disdain shown towards Eddie Jordan when he talks about the subjects shows that it isn’t.

    3. Strictly speaking, Frank Williams’ F1 exploits started with a customer Brabham in 1969 and Williams, via De Tomaso and customer Marches, became a constructor for the first time in 1972 with a chassis called a Politoys. Two years of Iso-Marlboros followed with the first Williams branded car (FW04) in 1975. Walter Wolf (of Wolf Racing) bought a majority stake in the team in 1976 and sacked Frank at the end of the year. Williams as we know and love it came into being as a new team for 1977 as a partnership between Williams and Patrick Head.

      So it should really be Williams=Frank Williams Racing Cars (1969), or Williams=Wolf-Williams=Williams=Iso Marlboro=Politoys=Frank Williams Racing Cars (1969) if you want to capture more of the changes the team has gone through…

    4. Also:

      Force India=Spyker=Midland=Jordan (1991)


      Sauber=BMW Sauber=Sauber(1993)

  13. The only two I could be around 90%+ sure of are Ferrari and McLaren.

    If Newey decides to leave RBR, for whatever reason, and they fall back down the field, I can’t see DM retaining his interest. That would also probably spell the end of STR.

    Mercedes are probably a financially secure manufacturer and could still be there in 10 years, but I wouldn’t bet my house on it.

    We could, of course, see a few more manufacturers enter the sport before 2022 with the new engine regulations, although how many of them would stick around for 5-10 years remains to be seen.

    1. I would love Merc to stay, I really would, Them vs Ferrari vs Mclaren would be absolutely fantastic.

      However, Merc have said they must win to stay in it… So my hopes are low.

  14. Ferrari and McLaren, with reasonable certainty. As for the rest, it’s impossible to say.

    Look back 10 years and the only teams still around that competed in 2002 (ignoring teams which have changed hands or been renamed) were Ferrari, McLaren, Sauber and Williams. The others have either changed name/ownership (Jaguar, BAR, Renault, Jordan, Minardi), gone bust (Arrows) or withdrawn (Toyota). Go back another 10 years and there’s only Ferrari, Mclaren and Williams which survive – Benetton, Lotus, Tyrrell, Footwork, Ligier, March, Dallara, Venturi/Larrousse, Minardi, Jordan, Fondmetal and Andrea Moda are all gone in one way or another.

    Unfortunately, serious questions have to be asked about Williams’ long-term sustainability as it remains uncompetitive and the team founders grow older. While I would hope Williams can start building competitive cars again it seems unlikely without the team undergoing a significant change (a Project 4-style takeover, for example). I’m sure Peter Sauber will do right by his employees but I can’t see him wanting to stick around for the long-term either.

  15. It’s really hard to answer, because we don’t know what Formula 1 will be like in ten years time, let alone the line up of teams.

    I can see Mclaren and Ferrari. Lotus and Mercedes are debatable as it would depend on the results they get, I believe. A post-Newey Red Bull would also be an interesting prospect.

    I think Williams could well go into co-management/ownership like they did with BMW a few years ago. If Honda is indeed enticed by the 2013 engine changes and the friendlier emissions F1 will try to embrace, it will be interesting to see if they, or even someone like Volkswagen, would team up with them.

    1. I agree that the only way I can see Williams still being around is if it enters a partnership with a major investor, whether it be another manufacturer or not.

      I can’t see them being able to continue the way they have been unless there is a miraculous turn around in form.

      1. Williams did score some decent cash via their driver lineup and they have been (or still are) reorganising their household.
        I’m not expecting anything spectacular, but wouldn’t be surprised to see them regularly in the fight for points this year, and make further improvements next year.
        A lot will depend on how teams deal with the mayor changes expected for 2013. that could shift things around a little.

        1. Williams did score some decent cash via their driver lineup and they have been (or still are) reorganising their household.
          I’m not expecting anything spectacular, but wouldn’t be surprised to see them regularly in the fight for points this year, and make further improvements next year

          I sure hope so!

  16. Given the current conditions, it’s quite easy to say that only the big 4 will remain in the game for sure, though I’d like to see BMW, Honda and Toyota back.

    1. I don’t agree, Merc has publically said that it wikll leave if it doesn’t start winning. And Red Bull has said it will only stay as long as it is.

      I dunno how little spine they may or may not have, but I wouldn’t bet on a lot.

      (For the record, I think leaving because you can’t win it is spineless.)

  17. I expect most of the teams to stay in the long run. Though I wouldn’t be surprised if Lotus end up changing there name again.

  18. Beside Ferrari (no matter what break-away mumbo jumbo they will be saying) and McLaren I can see literally everyone having a chance of going away. From the big guns the first to go might be Mercedes (if it doesn’t achieve success and the economy in Europe will be still suffering from the crisis) and Lotus if their huge marketing plans fail. From the bottom I think Caterham has the greatest chance of staying for a longer term, whereas HRT might be gone even next week.

    Interesting thing is Red Bull. The team itself will probably stay permanently, whether it will under Red Bull’s ownership and brand, that’s a different story. It largely depends on whether the team can sustain it’s top-tier position after Adrian has retired.

  19. i could only vote for 3- ferrari,mclaren and WILLIAMS!

  20. Keith,

    If you are going to defie teams by chassis name (which I agree is the best option) they have you considered whether you should attribute 7th place in 2010 to BMW Sauber?

    I know they dropped the BMW moniker from the team name, but the chassis remained “BMW Sauber”.

    1. @Tom_EC1 I do have BMW Sauber down as having competed in 2010 (only they were eighth, not seventh).

  21. What makes a team a team? A lot of people in Canada got excited this season with the return of the Winnipeg Jets franchise to the NHL. The original franchise moved away and this new incarnation is actually the results of a different franchise moving “back” to Winnipeg. But no-one really cares about that – to many they’re still the Winnipeg Jets, regardless of how they came back.

    In light of that, I would agree that being the same team but changing the name actually does constitute a new outfit. In which case, I expect only Ferrari and McLaren to still be there.

    It’s not hard to see the smaller teams being bought out, Mateschitz getting rid of Toro Rosso Lotus getting bored of its title sponsorship, Mercedes pulling a BMW. But there is something about Red Bull I don’t see surviving either, call it a hunch. Oddly I think Caterham has a good chance of staying around, not forever but maybe for the ten years.

  22. Which teams will still be in F1 in ten years’ time?

    That’s assuming F1 will still be around :P

    Ferrari, probably Mclaren. Red Bull unless they have a disaster. Williams will either die off in a few years or bounce back once the rules are shaken up but I bet it’s the former which means it’s probably be the latter. Renault will be around. They might not be a team but I think they’ll always be around F1. I’ll take a wild guess and say HRT too. Yep, I’m crazy but if I’m right can I get a prize? :P

    1. @Steph

      That’s assuming F1 will still be around :P


      1. @Mike you never know what could happen…

  23. Ok so am going to take a stab in the dark and say which teams will be in F1 in 10 yrs time

    Red Bull/Renault
    Torro Rosso

    1. I’m still waiting for the Flanders car…

    2. No Lola? :)

  24. I’ve gone for McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes and Williams. I think McLaren and Ferrari are pretty obvious choices due to their history and success and it would be silly for them to move away. I think Mercedes are also in it for the long term and if they don’t get the results and walk away before then that would not go down well at all. Williams is more of a hope that within the next ten years Williams will be at the top of the field and winning and stay in F1.

    I’m not sure about Red Bull staying in F1, the reason being that they have achieved what they set out to achieve – win both titles. They have know done this for 2 consecutive years now and you have to wonder whether they can keep that up. They could go either way and want to recreate the dominant Ferrari years (if they can that is) or bow out soon knowing they have blown the oppositiion away. I think the other teams we have will probably stick around but in different guises.

    I think that change is good for F1 as it brings new talent to the board and also gives other teams a chance to rise to the top of the pile/sink to the bottom. I think as long as we have the teams like McLaren, Ferrari and Williams then all will be OK.

  25. Can someone explain that graph? how come for example there is no position 1 in 1995 and yet williams have position 2.

    1. In 1995 Benneton won the constructors with Williams coming 2nd and the graph only shows teams which have been in f1 between 2002 & 2012. Since Benneton were bought over by Renault in 2002 they aren’t in it.

      1. Ah of course when shumi hit the scene.

  26. I find this constant changing of identity a little sad.

    It reminds me of the current state of the Premier League (football/soccer) and their stadiums all being renamed seemingly bi-yearly.

  27. Blimey. Ended up picking just four (McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes, Williams) and even that was more ‘3 and hopefully Williams’.

  28. You say only 4 teams have remained, I would say that’s a little misleading. 4 team names have remained, the teams themselves havent changed too much, and have existed in different guises.

    Jordan>Midland>Spyker>Force Inida
    Sauber>BMW Sauber>Sauber
    Reanult>Lotus Renault GP
    Minardi>Toro Rosso
    Jaguar>Red Bull

    Many of these teams have retained their engineers and their bases, I would suggest the teams are still here, just different owners.

    Sorry for the pedantic post!

  29. I would go for teams that dont have a bunch of bean-counters deciding the fate. Teams that are in it to race not for brand awareness or developing technologies for road car use.

    Williams, Ferarri, McLaren as it has always been.

    Taking a bet?
    Sauber possibly.
    HRT for the long odds.

  30. IF the F1 will still be around in current form, three teams are most certain to participate in 2022 World Championship. Ferrari, Mclaren and Aureo.

    Ferrari being Ferrari, Mclaren will become a succesfull car manufacturer with strong presence in racing and that third unknown outfit… Well let’s spill the beans. It’s my company that i’m just starting. 10 years from now and i will fund my F1 team, or maybe form a partnership to sponsor McLaren like Vodafone today, haven’t decided yet.

    Of that, i can assure you. :D

  31. I Love The Pope
    20th January 2012, 15:23

    This is why I have always said it is pointless to get all excited about constructors when they come and go so often. I follow the drivers and the drivers title is all that matters. What team they race for is relatively irrelevant. The only exception for me would be Ferrari – whom I used to hate, but now see that they are the only ones who stick around.

    1. I find the fluidity of F1 one of the best things about being a fan. For example, I’ve followed Jenson all of his career, no matter what team he drove for. But prefered, say, Brawn and BAR to McClaren.

      And as a team, I’ve really liked Caterham(Lotus) since they came into the sport, and subsequently look out for their drivers.

      1. I Love The Pope
        20th January 2012, 21:19

        Well, right. You’ve followed Jensen – not the fly-by-night teams he’s driven for (exception for McLaren).

  32. Playing about with the graph just makes me long to have the 80’s and 90’s back…

  33. Can I just say that I love the graphs on this website.

    1. @georgedaviesf1 You certainly can!

    2. I also love them, with the minor exception of vote tally graphs.

      Driver polls tend to represent zero vote drivers with more votes than 1 vote drivers.

      Now this poll has McLaren with a longer bar/band/line/whatever than Ferrari, with 5 votes less (in FF, that is).

      Could you enquire about this with the developer of the poll widget please?

  34. I think it’ll only be the same three Ferrari, Mclaren, and Williams, who have been there for so long. Although i believe Williams will be under very different ownership. I can see that if someone does take over them ,they’ll keep the same name.

  35. Want a radical view? None of them!
    The sport is becoming so horrendously expensive that only the mega-rich can play, but that will only endure as long as they are making enough money to break even.
    The sponsorship revenues are going to begin falling, because of the loss of the free to air TV coverage.
    The only markets that will be open to them, to display their wares, will be in the middle and far east, as the greed of the sports sends the cost of staging an event spiraling out of control.
    Countries where the government ‘buys’ the race and the local ‘fans’ can’t afford tickets or expensive cars, which will spell the end of the European teams with a manufacturing base. Expect to see new teams from Kia, Proton, Hyundai, Tata, Parr F1 etc.
    More and more countries and tracks in the west refuse to subsidise the sport of the super rich.
    As the costs spiral the mega rich team owners will tire and let go of their expensive toys and move on to other forms of entertainment.
    Add to that the never ending ‘elf’n’safety rules being introduced by the FIA. The effective ‘dumbing down’ of the pinnacle of motor sport. By 2022 the engines will probably be de-tuned Ford Ka units limited to 1,800 rpm, with an automatic gearbox and ‘collision avoidance’ cruise control. Pay drivers will be welcome (put your credit card in the slot in the dashboard and drive till credit limit is reached. Wings will be banned as will, wide brimmed hats, but skirts will be allowed, as long as they are below the knee.
    In the next ten years there will be some significant retirements from the sport. Sir Frank Williams, Peter Sauber (he’s already done it once), Bernard Charles Ecclestone (PLEASE), and a fifty year old Herr Schumacher.
    Here is the view from F1 in purgatory. May it never be so.

    1. haha, F1 The Apocalypse!

  36. OmarR-Pepper (@)
    20th January 2012, 17:21

    I like this topic Keith… You can see that, by resting the results of total voters, more than half (total 248 while writing this) of people who answered the poll think Williams won’t stay so long (me included), This is a team which was created by sir Frank and personally I think that without his persona, it wil be very difficult to command the team, moreover observe how the team is now (some teams have recovered from terrible times and let’s hope Williams can) but a truth is Sir Frank (even if he lives 10 more years) may not be able to have the strenght to run the team EFFICIENTLY. You can put managers, you can hire people but sometimes F1 is just about spirit. You can say I’m wrong or too passionate for the sport, but how was the Toyota issue? A millionaire company hiring good staff and not wining even a single race.

  37. I think it’s interesting to note that the long term teams Ferrari, McLaren and Williams – independent or not – all have a business built around their involvement in F1.

    Most other teams, even manufacturer linked teams like Mercedes, Lotus or Marussia are tending to be A a racing team with + B a brand airbrushed on the bodywork that could be washed off when they get bored. The brand B often becomes interchangeable and they are likely to disappear, even if the team A stays.

    Caterham seem to be starting an approach similar to the long term teams with F1 a strong pillar of the business Tony Fernandes is building. How this will play out may be hard to predict if, down the line, the team moves to Malaysia or if Fernandes sells Caterham (F1, cars and composites together).

    Sauber are of a similar trend with a focus that has been wider than F1, and their long term future at the top level may depend on what becomes of the team if Peter Sauber leaves – whether they continue as Sauber, rebrand or fold.
    This would most likely be dependant on the success of the team and if they rise to “household name” levels of recognition. This could also be said of many teams. Without this recognition the independent racing teams seem to rebrand or disappear.
    If Minardi had be remembered for winning would they still be around perhaps?

  38. Is Minardi counted as a “lost” team? It was rebranded as STR, but the team’s the same.
    Otherwise it’s hard to see Marussia and HRT lasting long, more so without changing owner/name.

    1. @Fixy

      Is Minardi counted as a “lost” team?


      When Sebastian Vettel won the 2008 Italian Grand Prix, it wasn’t a case of Minardi finally winning a race after 23 years. It was Toro Rosso winning their first race in their third season.

      1. So I picked Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari, Lotus, Sauber, Toro Rosso and Williams.
        I’ll definitely be checking this back in 2022.

  39. I think that McLaren and Ferrari will stay, as their businesses both depend on the on-track activities to the extent that business would be in danger if they pulled out.

    Red Bull will remain as long as success is for the taking, and I think that Sauber will still be around in some form. To survive on what they have for so long is an achievement not to be sniffed at. Williams and Caterham are both fairly likely to stay – probably – as are Mercedes.

  40. It’s hard to imagine the world without Formula 1 or Formula 1 without McLaren, Ferrari and Williams. On the other hand, as one of my favourite musicians sings, nothing good could last forever. Lehman Brothers were invincible for more than 150 years. And we are living in turbulent times.

    Nevertheless, my gut feeling is that F1, F1 Fanatic, Ferrari, McLaren, Sauber and Caterham will still be around in 2022.

  41. Hadn’t expect that so many people (myself included) see Red Bull as a stayer. I think as long as F1 stays popular, it makes sense for them.

    Even if F1 becomes more controversial, because of environmentalistas, I think it still fits with their rebellion image.

    And then, there might come a point when there’s so much racing in their blood and DNA that they keep on selling those cans to support their F1 team. Which makes sense, what else to do with all that money…

  42. I Love The Pope
    20th January 2012, 21:20

    I believe Ferrari and McLaren will still be there, but the rest will not be. I hope that Mercedes is, but I have my doubts. Perhaps we should just give half the field to Ferrari and the other half to McLaren.

  43. I voted McLaren Ferrari and RB.
    I think Caterham is still there, trouble is, they have allready changed name once after just two years so I won’t be surprised if someone else comes along, could be Bentley, could be Aston who knows? to change their name once again.
    Red Bull is a bit of a risk, but considering that extreme sport is what they are selling their fizzy drink on I don’t see that they should bail out just like that.
    Mercedes isn’t very likely to stay I think. Manufactures come and go as they want and rarely stay for longer periods. Especially when it isn’t really a factory team, it is “just” another F1 team in southern england which Mercedes pays money to be painted silver.
    As I see it Williams is on their way out, I just can’t see them hang around much longer. Patric head is gone, and Frank can’t go on forever either.
    When that happens I think it is likely that they will be renamed to make money from a sponsor.

  44. Ferrari have F1 in their blood. Cert.
    McLaren have, unlike Williams and Benetton/Renault/Lotus, used their success to build an infrastructure that has allowed them to have longevity. Cert.
    Williams, with their drivers and the mess they are in, will be dead by 2015.
    I think Benetton/Renault/Lotus and Tyrell/BAR/Honda/Brawn/Mercedes will be around in one form or another.
    Red Bull could either become the next Williams, or the next Williams. When Materschitz pulls out, I can see RB not surviving.
    Toro Rosso, when Materschitz pulls out, will survive, but with a pool of ever decreasing talent.
    Force India will thrive, and I can see them winning a race by 2015.
    Caterham will be in the midfield somewhere, I don’t know.
    HRT and Marussia, dead in two years.

    1. The problem for Mclaren is, if there form drops like Williams has, then things will get harder and harder. In 10 years they could find themselves in the position Williams is now.

      Don’t forget, in 2004 Williams was still one of the big 3. That’s not that long ago.

  45. Mclaren
    Are the only two i can see still being there in ten years. Red bull isnt going to be winning ”Team” for much longer, they(RB) will drop out in the next 3 to 5 years. Well i hope so anyway.

  46. Phillip Blueno
    21st January 2012, 6:42

    I don’t agree with this…alot of these teams just changed hands and evolved into new team names, they didn’t completely disintegrate. The only teams whom have completely dissolved were only 2 of them, Toyota ans Super Aguri.

    All of these other team names that have shut down still had a tremendous asset value were it is very attractive for another owner to come in and simply by a turn-key operation to enter Formula 1 instead of starting up a team from scratch.

    So in essence, it really was only 2 teams which have only shut down in the last decade, and this still shows that Formula 1 does create a tremendous platform for any multi-national company looking to promote their products and/or services.

  47. I went with Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes. Simply put, I think these 4 will have the finances capable of doing so. Many doubt Red Bull yet they’ve been involved in ‘extreme’ sports for years now and they could really use F1 as their flagship marketing product…as long as they’re successful.

    I can’t see Williams around much longer. Sir Frank isn’t exactly a spring chicken and I think the interest in them and management will wane once he’s retired.

  48. Ferrari and Mclaren, yes, Red Bull and Mercedes, most likely. Toro Rosso, probably as long as Red Bull is there. Williams, maybe, but it’s looking less likely with each season. Sauber, quite possibly. HRT, Marussia and maybe Caterham, I seriously doubt it. Not sure about Lotus and Force India though. However as Formula 1 is unpredictable I could end up being completely wrong about most of or some of these assumptions.

  49. Ferrari = Yes, its their DNA
    McLaren = Yes, seemingly well financed going forward.
    Red Bull = no, its a marketing exercise
    Torro Rosso = same as Red Bull
    Wiliams = no, too close to the edge
    Mercedes = No, accountants will see it off
    Force India = No, VJ seems pretty skint according to Indian press
    Lotus = No, a venture capital firm and a struggling lotus parent company
    Sauber = No, once Peter goes
    Marussia = No, see Spyker
    HRT = No
    Caterham = No, Tonys money will eventually return to Tony.

    Upbeat prediction i know!!

  50. I think most will still be around but some will probably change identity.

  51. As of 2019, three years away from 2022, this is what has happened to the 2012 teams:
    Still racing – Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren, Toro Rosso, Williams
    Changed hands – Lotus (to Renault), Force India (to Racing Point), Sauber (to Alfa Romeo)
    Gone bust – Marussia, Caterham, HRT

    I think Mercedes might decide to “retire” from F1 after 2020 and sell the team and Williams might fold if they don’t change hands, the other four teams I think will still be around in 2022, for sure Ferrari and the two Red Bull teams, I would hope McLaren will stay but I’m concerned there are being distracted by Indy 500 efforts for Alonso.

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