Carlos Sainz Jnr, Toro Rosso, Baku City Circuit, 2017

Horner: Red Bull would sell Sainz for the right price

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If Renault were to replace Jolyon Palmer, who should they hire?

Kubica needs to test a 2017 car before he can even be considered for a drive, which may or may not happen in 2018. I would have Sainz on a six month contract, get Kubica in for a few free practice sessions and go from there.

Heck, we might even have Hulkenberg going to Ferrari next year, then they will need both Sainz and Kubica.

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  • 75 comments on “Horner: Red Bull would sell Sainz for the right price”

    1. Once again, if Hulkenberg ends up in Ferrari, Romain will kill himself with a Haas brake disc. But in the other hand, it will be cool to see a red Dekra hat in Ferrari again 😁

      1. and seeing 27 back on a red car

        1. Martin Hooper
          18th July 2017, 5:28

          Villnueve Senior yes?

          1. Tommy Scragend
            18th July 2017, 16:30

            Number 27 is usually associated with Gilles Villeneuve, although he only carried that number for the whole of the 1981 season and up to his death in 1982. So not all that long really.

      2. I would be so happy if Hulk goes to Ferrari… On qualifying, I can see him beating Vettel over a season. Probably not in the race, but at least he’d finally have to have some podiums/wins that he deserves

      3. Fukobayashi (@)
        18th July 2017, 10:27

        I personally think COTD is off the money on so many levels. Why on earth would Sainz sign to Renault who are on a par with Torro Rosso for the sake of a 6 month contract? Complete nonsense. If he were to join Renault it would be on a 2-3 year contract having taken into account their projected performance goals which would need to be a significant step from where they are now, like Hulk did.

        1. Because his orrignal plan of going to RBR backfired.

          Sainz SR has reportedly started a rumour in an english paper via a spanish paper that Verstappen was so fed up with RB’s unreliability and had signed a pre-contract with Ferrari. Meanwhile, during the Austrian GP weekend, Sainz JR talked about beeing frustrated at STR and not wanting to respect his 2018 contract, eihter moving up or out next season.

          However, Marko found out what happened and according to Dutch media had a very angry discussion with both Sainz JR and SR. That conversation didn’t go well and continued at Silverstone. Then, Saturday evening rumours started to circulate that RedBull was firing Sainz jr after this weekend and that Renault would pay RB $8million to have him replace Palmer from Hungary onwards. That rumour then died down on Sunday, but yesterday Horner has said that Sainz jr is for sale, which is a big shift from what we have been hearing up until now.

          What is true or untrue about this whole story I dunno, but I recon it doesn’t seem likely Sainz will be at STR (or RBR) after this season.

          1. Fukobayashi (@)
            18th July 2017, 12:36

            @jeffreyj it would be absolute career suicide to jump to a under performing (by a works team standard) Renault mid season when they potentially have Kubica and Hulk on the agenda for 2018. He would need to comprehensively outperform Nico in unfamiliar machinery to have any hope of making a good impression, spoiler alert: he wouldnt.

            Unless he wants to really emulate his Spanish compatriot by making awful career decisions, it makes zero sense.

            1. Sundar Srinivas Harish
              18th July 2017, 14:09

              Kubica is still just rumour, I presume Renault would want to get him some practice time in the current machinery. The point about Hulk is valid, he might make you tear out your eyes in agony on race day, or weep tears of blood with his magnetism for misfortune, but he is a talented qualifier.

            2. @offdutyrockstar Agreed but Sainz JR doesn’t have annything to say in the matter, especially now that Marko & Co are so mad with him. If and when it suits RBR he he goes. Simple as that.

            3. Fukobayashi (@)
              18th July 2017, 14:54

              It’s disappointing the TR isn’t more competitive, I think preseason was predicting something similar to the level FI are actually at because the ingredients were there, Mercedes W08-like design philosophy, James Key, current spec engine, lovely livery (worth 0.1 secs apparently) ;)

      4. Unless Vettel himself moves, would it be prudent for a premium road car maker like Ferrari to have two drivers of same nationality?
        Sainz seems have to lost his patience at Torro Rosso and maybe interested in options elesewhere. For any teams considering Sainz, not only cost, but recent performances must be under consideration. So many DNFs does not make for a good scorecard.

      5. And it would be the right choice.
        Sainz is not good enough that RBR want to hold on to him, that’s telling, as in football they would love to make some money out of him, hopefully that team is not Ferrari, as he’s not good enough, any of the current 2 RBR drivers would make a better signing.

    2. I just laughed out of my seat when I read the headline.

      In my mind I was thinking ” oh Horner isn’t impressed with Carlos’s racing and is ready to get him out and if someone’s pays for that , hell yeah”

      Then I ready the article and got dissapointed that wasn’t how it turned out to be , sigh !

      1. I think the article is consistent with Horner’s other recent comment in which he said they were going to take up the option to keep him on for another season, meaning that if another team wanted to employ Sainz next year then they would need to buy him out of his current contract.

    3. This is the problem with the Red Bull Driver Development programme. They give the chance to race in F1 to some drivers but in most cases, they also end their careers replacing them for the “next F1 star”. Carlos has no room for him at Red Bull, is it selfish from him to ask his bosses to release him so he can continue his career somewhere else? I don’t think so… yes Red Bull invested heavily in him, but Carlos also gave Toro Rosso some good performances over the year.

      What other chances does he have anyway? he might stay at Toro Rosso, but Daniel and Max might stay at Red Bull too, and Carlos might end up being replaced by, say, Gasly or whoever. That’s not good for anyone.

      1. Redbull has done enough getting their drivers to F1. There are only 20 seats sometimes much less, because some drivers stay in F1 for 15 years.
        What can Redbull do.

      2. He could not sign an option and let his contact run out. And then, as a free agent, shop for a new team.

        As it stands, it looks like he wants to have the cake and eat it, too.

      3. GtisBetter (@)
        18th July 2017, 8:42

        It’s fair for Carlos to be asked to be released, but it is also fair for RB to say no and ask a lot of money. I don’t really see anybody paying a lot for him right now.

    4. All this talk about Sainz… he seems too entitled to the “top drive”. He’s way to cocky for no substance. Sky has always talked him up but in my view he is not that quick plus prone to silly mistakes and outbursts. If I had a choice between Kubica or Sainz… there would be no consideration for the Spaniard. If Kubica’s injuries are not a problem anymore, he is hands on the better of the two with the experience driving against the best.

      1. Exactly. He has just had better reliability this year, else he’s not been faster than Kvyat.
        He has caused even more serious accidents than his team mate.

        1. Agreed, him and Grosjean sound almost delusional by suggesting that Ferrari (really, what other top vacancy is there?) ought to hurry up and snatch them now that they can.

          They haven’t done anything that puts them above Hulkenberg or Perez, who are now the reference plane.

          1. Sundar Srinivas Harish
            18th July 2017, 14:17

            I’d place Grosjean in and around Perez and Hulkenberg though. Yes, he is annoying on the radio, but he has honestly come a long way from the 2012 season. Besides, Perez seems to be lashing out at Ocon nowadays, too. I’m not saying that it isn’t without good reason, but it would be a shame for him to start looking like an agitated and/or entitled driver after the progress he’s made from his McLaren days.

      2. GtisBetter (@)
        18th July 2017, 8:50

        Every driver in f1 feels he is entitled to a “top drive” :). As for kubica, he is another one who is being talked up. I would love it for him to be great, but my initial position is a sceptical one. Mostly cause i don’t have any info on his tests.

      3. Fukobayashi (@)
        18th July 2017, 10:30

        @toxic Sainz was actually very impressive when paired with Max but had worse reliability which skewed the stats. This year agreed, he hasn’t been performing at the same level. Maybe he’s one of those drivers who needs a benchmark in the second car to step it up and I think we can all agree that Kvyat isn’t a very good benchmark.

        1. @offdutyrockstar

          While I agree that Sainz wasn’t as far behind Verstappen as the pionts tally in their season together (plus the first 4 races of 2016) would suggest, I haven’t seen the flashes of brilliance that Verstappen showed in 2015 (China, Hungary, Belgium, Singapore, Austin, Brazil). For that matter, he hasn’t shown those in 2016 or 2017 (so far) either. He has had drives where

          he showed his pace with great finishing results (like Monaco last year and I believe it was Spain this year) but they were never as spectacular as what VER has done, Sainz would just go almost under the radar and then finish 6th.

          1. Fukobayashi (@)
            18th July 2017, 12:32

            @jeffreyj agreed, he is no Max. I don’t know anyone new to the grid since Jules Bianchi who is tbh, maybe Ocon, maybe.

            1. Yeah I think Ocon is the real deal too.

              He beat Verstappen in F3, although either could have won that title. Last year from Belgium onwards with Manor he was beating Wehrlein straight away and then this year he comes into Force India, where Perez has been for several years now (who is also highly rated), and is immediately on Perez’ level. That’s really impressive imho.

            2. Fukobayashi (@)
              18th July 2017, 15:05

              +1 👍

            3. I for one think Perez is a special talent and for Ocon to come in and be glued to Perez rear now in so many races is impressive. This last race Perez said “He beat me and that’s all there is to it.”

              Ocon may move to Renault since Prost has been keeping an eye him for a while now.

      4. @toxic He’s just like his father, he’s good but he’s not as good as he thinks he is nor what the media says he is.

    5. Neil (@neilosjames)
      18th July 2017, 0:41

      Regarding Palmer… test Kubica in the 2017 car at the official test after Hungary. If OK, pay off Palmer/lose his sponsorship and gain significant positive exposure for the brand (and a probable increase in points-scoring potential) by bringing Kubica back.

      But if Kubica can’t drive as well as expected, they might as well leave Palmer there unless they’re signing a long-term replacement. Anyone who’d be capable of doing better than Palmer as a mid-season replacement isn’t going to be cheap, so it has to be someone Renault will want to commit to for at least 2018, probably 2019 as well, to make the financial outlay (I know they’re a works team, but that doesn’t mean unlimited funds for driver gambles) worth it.

      I honestly don’t see them wanting to make that decision now, so for me – unless they’ve already made up their minds on their 2018 lineup – it’s a straight choice between Palmer or Kubica for the rest of 2017.

      1. @neilosjames They should give Kubica a couple of test days or practice sessions to familiarise himself with the 2017 machine. Then at the end of the year, they do a straight shoot out to get the drive for 2018. Like when Williams hired Jenson Button all those years ago.

      2. I was expecting the Palmer would be replaced AFTER the summer break but if i hear all the comments they are just going for the end of his contract. So No Palmer with Renault in 2018.

        Not sure if they are going to use Kubica next year, that is the 80-90% sure what Kubica told the press. Or Kubica is going to an other Team in 2018.

      3. If Renault wants they can somewhat emulate what Mercedes has done. Mercedes paired Michael with Nico (Rosberg) at a time when they did not have a top car. This was before roping in a top driver like Hamilton.
        If Kubica can race 2017 cars, there is no reason why they can’t put him with Nico (Hulkenberg).
        As a constructor Mercedes waited patiently, put up the human resource and built brilliant engine and power unit when the change came. Renault seems to have patience and the budget to have a long run in modern F1. Why they should keep Palmer is beyond any reason as of now. He is not naturally fast. While that shouldn’t be a deterrent to strong results, he seems to be technically less adept at figuring out where he is losing out to his teammate. Coupled with some misfortune, which in F1 is part of the sport, it seems more and more curtain call for Palmer. Bottomline: Renault should gamble with a new driver (not necessarily one with monetary benefits) in 2018 along with Hulkenberg. Sainz, though a fast candidate, is not a steady pair of hands when it comes to scoring points. That is some advantage which is immensely benefiting Force India now.

    6. Interesting what Leclerc had to say about driving F1 on Fridays, it does seem to be going out of fashion a bit.

    7. The bosses of f1 and the fia bang on about reducing costs and once again the big idea for making the racing better is more aero changes to the car?!?! Where once again the teams with the most money will come out miles ahead of the smaller teams. Good job!!!

      1. Agreed 100%. They are harp on about “improving the show” yet are fixated, and allocate so much funds to something we cannot even see – aerodynamics. I think the top teams confuse “improving the show” with “improving our show”.

        Until a plank of 2×4 can be used to run across various parts of the car (wings, sidepods) as a test to what is acceptable and not from an aerodynamic perspective there is still room for improvement. Look at the 2009 wings compared to now, yet during that whole time the majority of have called for less reliance on aerodynamics.

        The only parties that car about aerodynamics are the ones who stand to lose the most from reduced aerodynamics.

        1. It was no better in 2009 with those simpler wings. I can’t remember the GP but I remember Button making a comment along the lines of catching up to the other cars like they were stood still but then it was impossible to pass once he had.

          Even with these complex aerodynamics we still see some pretty awesome passing. It’s not happening every corner throughout every lap of the race but when it does it’s special.

          The Verstappen/Vettel battles from Silverstone were beautiful to watch. DRS normally robs us of those kind of displays and I think we are just lucky a driver like Verstappen can defend as well as he can to neutralise it.

          1. More the point to my comments was in regards to cost. I would love to know/see how much is allocated to aerodynamics when you factor in power, man hours and wind tunnel costs. Those that have more investment in aero, are the ones that typically perform better, when to the average punter they would not notice much difference between any two cars on the grid.

            The key to addressing the passing issue, which you are talking about, really does come down to the rear wing and diffuser. That being said, there is no correlation between cost reduction of aero and overtaking. I think it is more for FIA/FOM to make some big calls, which will infuriate some teams, but putting some set parameters around the rear wing and diffuser so there is no so much “dirty” air. As much as some will complain, it will be the same rules for everyone, so I don’t see what the issue would be.

            If this is implemented properly, the flow on effect down the line would hopefully be DRS no longer needed.

            1. @bamboo, if you really wanted to reduce the amount of turbulence produced by the cars, you’d have more of an impact if you enclosed the tyres with bodywork.

            2. @bamboo

              It was also no different on cost in 2009 either. Brawn didn’t win as some plucky underdogs with fresh thinking, they won with probably one of the most heavily developed cars in F1 history. Honda ploughed enormous resources into that car, it wasn’t the best by fluke.

              Also from probably Silverstone onward Red Bull became the best car but the points lead Brawn had gathered early on was enough.

              McLaren also managed to develop themselves out of trouble. Budget has been king for longer than I’ve been watching F1.

              The days of a character like Gordon Murray coming along and turning F1 on its head are long over. It’s a finely honed science now.

          2. Fukobayashi (@)
            18th July 2017, 10:31

            @philipgb spot on.

      2. Michael Brown (@)
        18th July 2017, 1:28

        Going back to simple front wings would reduce costs. The front wings now have so many elements that get disrupted with the slightest wake.

        1. @mbr-9, you’d probably actually worsen the effect of being in the wake of another car if you did that. If you just have a single flap, that is actually more prone to stalling and creating a larger change in the handling balance of the car than if you have a multi element wing, where only some of the individual elements will potentially stall.

        2. @bamboo @mbr-9 One of you saying address just the rear wing and diffuser, and one of you saying simplify the front wing. In fact there is no isolating of one over the other. It all works together in an effort to keep a balanced car. The front wing greatly affects how air treats the rest of the car.

          The trick to the science, that I believe they will be researching very much, is how to have aero downforce help cars lap fast, while at the same time not having that aero also hinder closer racing. Part of the equation of course is that at least they are now on tires that can give them a better ratio of mechanical grip to aero grip.

        3. @mbr-9

          I don’t think it’s as simple as that. 2014-2016 saw a huge chunk of aero taken off the cars and the teams with the big budgets came out even further ahead of the other teams because with less surface for aero the quality of it mattered most.

          I can’t think of a realistic way you can impose simple aero other than spec components and that misses the point of F1, the teams get given dimension limits and build what they want within that box. There isn’t an easy way to mandate less intricate shapes, and even if they tried the top teams would find the loopholes.

      3. Fukobayashi (@)
        18th July 2017, 10:40

        Ads have you read the article? It mentions ‘aero changes’ not ‘more aero’. How do you expect them to mandate simpler designs without discussing it?

        1. @offdutyrockstar Exactly. Aero downforce is not going away, but I take great comfort that Brawn et al are going to keep addressing how to proceed going forward to create closer racing and as Brawn has hinted at, the eventual removal of DRS. The tires are already a great help and they can and will be improved too, as they can provide the mechanical grip to allow drivers confidence in their cars while behind cars in corners, and no doubt they will continue to address ground effects via the floor and rear diffuser and the exhaust blown effect. I think we are in exciting times as the post-BE era begins and better long term decisions are made for the good of the sport and all teams and of course for the fans. Talk of aero needn’t connote more harmful dirty air preventing closer racing as that would be the opposite of the very kinds of things Brawn has been addressing as a general philosophy going forward.

          1. Fukobayashi (@)
            18th July 2017, 13:09

            Well said. I often wonder why people read a headline and barrell right into the comments section without having read the article!

    8. The headline screams football transfer saga. Hope that level of tedium doesn’t infiltrate F1

    9. These guys have the two worst attitudes in f1, I will be happy to see them

      1. go?

      2. Reminds me of Fernando Alonso burning bridges with McLaren. Same goes to Carlos Sainz burning bridges with Redbull.
        Both of them should join a Spanish F1 Team(HRT), with a Spanish team owner, team principle and all Spanish engineers and mechanics. I wonder how this will workout between them all.

    10. These guys have the two worst attitudes in f1, I will be happy to see them off racing in formulaE with all the other “not good enough’s”.

    11. I think Red Bull are pretty much just using Sainz to strengthen their position in the contract negotiations with Ricciardo and Verstappen. Ricciardo’s contract is up end of next year, if he gets cocky with money Red Bull can afford to release him with Sainz sat waiting in the midst. They’ll will likely resign Ricciardo in my estimation and then com the end of 2019 the fun starts again with both Sainz and Verstappen’s contracts up.

      Red Bull don’t have the car allure that Mercedes have or the prestige of driving for Ferrari to offer drivers, but they have a unique position of holding onto more than 2 top flight drivers when it comes time for musical seats.

      But I still don’t understand what Kvyat brings to the table. He seemed promising in 2014, he can definitely drive a car quickly. But he just seems ever so slightly out of his depth against the best drivers. I can’t figure out why they would be keeping him on especially as he seems to be causing tension with Sainz.

      1. Kvyat is the boogeyman.

        If Ricciardo or Verstappen misbehave, they’ll get Daniil as their teammate.

      2. The Sainz group are the issue. Although having the performance to justify and having other teams chasing him, another reason Red Bull promoted Max was as a result of the toxic environment the Sainz group made for the Verstappens. You only have to look at the troubles the Sainz group has created for the Verstappens in recent weeks with the Ferrari rumours, when they aren’t even in the same team, to get an idea of how tense it must of been in the same team when in each others presence.

        The relationship with Carlos with any of his teammates since entering F1 has been hostile. The fact that Horner is happy for him to leave instead of his overly aggressive crash-prone team mate really does speak volumes of what it must be like to deal with the Sainz camp. Judged on track performances alone, you’d expect those comments about Kvyat.

        There are a few discussions online that the Red Bull/Sainz relationship is well and truly broken. The comment of “he really did a good job” by Sainz after the Sainz/Kvyat tangle is being interpreted as Kvyat is favored, and Sainz no longer feels welcome in the team. Theres also further discussions that the whole tether issue leading up to Silverstone was a cryptic message from Red Bull/Toro Rosso that Sainzs ties have been severed with Red Bull. At first thought, it does sound like hogwash, but why did Toro Rosso present the car like that to scrutineering, and why did they not fix it when requested?

        1. With regards the tether, that is just how the manufacturer makes them and has done for a while. The FIA weren’t aware and had to backtrack.

          1. Thanks for the clarity. Hogwash it is then. Without that knowledge it does look like a very very patchy bit of work by the TR folk.

    12. How come we NEVER see an article about Americas human rights abuses and flagrant sanctioned torture practices and it’s relationship with it’s GLOBAL whitewashing of such practices with global saturation of its self promoting movies and sports events including its F1 race?
      China anyone?

      The amount of media coverage on the miniscule island nation of Bahrain and it’s supposed atrocities is so over the top with it’s Islamophobic slant it should be clearly evident to even the most of the “knuckle draggers”.

      The inclusion of this article on this website, the only in the briefest way even mentions F1, shows real racism by f1 fanatic. Should be ashamed of yourselves.

      Nice celebrity worship article with the Wimbledon story.

      1. @ibrahim
        Chill out. You’re probably in the wrong forum for a soap box performance.
        Islamophobia ? Racism ? You’re the only one to see it. Have a word with yourself or consider anger management.

      2. GtisBetter (@)
        18th July 2017, 10:58

        I not sure you know what racism means. Even though there is torture in the name of the US, there is a huge difference between a governement abusing it’s power by torturing, manipulation and killing people opposing it views, like a number of countries. Russia, China, turkey to name but a few, where the government has no real institution to keep them in check. Not all on the same scale mind you. And a country torturing people who they think are terrorist and where the victims are all deprived of Human rights and on occasion also innocent. While torture is bad, comparing us torture to Bahrein torture just can’t be done. Though I do think f1 should take responsibility when adding a new race. Also these are not “supposed” atrocities by Bahrein. They are real and documented.

        1. Eh…..@passingisoverrated

          there is a huge difference between a ggovernement abusing it’s power by torturing, manipulation and killing people opposing it views

          I think it’s safe to say that the USA is by far the most lethal country in the world when it comes to “people opposing it views”. It uses it’s global power for blatent imperialism and it’s not afraid to use millitairy force or even shadier tactics to get their way. Meanwhile they launge a gigantic media campaign to justify it’s actions which, and that’s the most baffling to me, in this day and age of the internet/information age is clearly working…

          All this has nothing to do F1. The only time F1 (or the olympics or football etc.) might give a damn is when it hits their baseline (their profits) I.e when western public opinion might damage the image of it’s stakeholders and even then it might still be worth the opportunity-cost (see the World Cup in Qatar for example)

    13. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
      18th July 2017, 9:50

      I’m really unsure about where Sainz is going or if he is staying with his team. We keep hearing news that he’s likely to stay with the team as the link above suggests.
      Then we hear news that Kvyat is looking to remain with Toro Rosso too:
      Horner also said that it is very likely Kvyat will remain. This site does say this “With Red Bull having assured Sainz of a deal for next year, Horner said that Kvyat was also likely to be confirmed imminently at Toro Rosso too.” Does this mean that a deal is confirmed for Sainz will be with Kvyat next year? Does it mean that the team have certainly confirmed a deal for Sainz elsewhere and are keeping Kvyat because he is experienced?

      All this news is looking like you can’t trust any of them yet. Even with these claims that Palmer will be leaving soon. We just can’t trust any of this speculation until is is clear that a team has announced something.

      1. Add to that if Sainz is heading to Renault why did they test Kubica, and why has he been in the Red Bull simulator in the last week?

    14. Fukobayashi (@)
      18th July 2017, 10:47

      That Valkyrie… I have no doubt it could well be the fastest road legal car ever but my god it’s ugly and looks nothing like any Aston. They should have just branded it as a one off even if AM are helping them with the fabrication and manufacturing which i’m pretty sure is the extent of their input looking at it.

      1. Kinda looks like one of the ‘Cars’ cars, they had at Silverstone this week (minus the eyes of course).

    15. Evil Homer (@)
      18th July 2017, 14:48

      Sainz may have grovelled a bit after his comments last week but he still seems to place himself far above his performance and on a level of Max (pre and post team-mates) but I cant see that. He seems to makes mistakes more than he should, never seems to get on with his team-mate & talks too much to the media answering questions no-one seemed to ask. Don’t get me wrong he is fast and could be a good F1 driver but needs to find his way and Red Bull are no longer that path.

      Horner is right to put him on the market at the right price but where will he go?
      News talks of HAM retiring, I cant see that to be honest. I cant see Toto taking him.
      Red Bull are full of talent. No room.
      Ferrari should replace Kimi but Checo or Nico a better option (and Ferrari don’t go with less experienced drivers).
      Renault to replace Jo could be his better option and he will have a good battle with Hulkenburg.

      I rate the guy as a driver but if his PR machine were starting “Unhappy Max rumours” and they get back……….. well look at Marko’s history with drivers- no-one has stepped to another team and done well in F1.

    16. Last year Renault and Prost had interest in Ocon and this year he has been impressive in keeping up with Perez and maybe even beating him by the end of the season. My prediction is Ocon goes to Renault.

      1. I don’t see why Renault would be interested in Sainz when Ocon is doing a stellar job.

        1. Because he has a Mercedes contract, so likely not that easy to get him.

          1. I rather buyout Ocon over Sainz any day.

    17. Sell Sainz at the right price???…they would also sell Max at the right price as well….possibly with not much choice….no such thing as a water tight contract, especially if the driver does not want to stay……so if Max were to leave…..up steps Carlos to the 1st team….

      1. Evil Homer (@)
        19th July 2017, 13:33

        That’s right- he said 110 million and Helmut Marko goes with him- its a good deal :)

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