Williams, McLaren, Circuit de Catalunya, 2018

Brown “will have a fight on his hands” if he goes after Williams sponsors

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In the round-up: Williams deputy team principal Claire Williams warns McLaren group group executive director Zak Brown to expect a tough time if he comes after their sponsors.

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@Asanator thought Sergey Sirotkin gave a good account of him in our exclusive interview with him yesterday:

The more I hear from this kid the more I like him.

He is clearly intelligent and has thrown himself into the job and the team. I think he has pretty much got where he is on merit. Sure his backing helps but most drivers on the grid have backing in one form or another. He has had results in the junior categories and has clearly performed well in his testing duties with both Renault and Williams so I am keeping an open mind about him and hope he does well.
@Asanator

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  • On this day in 1973 Jackie Stewart won the South African Grand Prix from 16th on the grid

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  • 77 comments on “Brown “will have a fight on his hands” if he goes after Williams sponsors”

    1. 4WD F1 cars in 2021 – Heresy! Brilliant idea. Would have been perfect for this 1st Barcelona test session as well.

      Have to shave 50kg from somewhere else…But where? From fuel capacity and maybe from some area that raised the cog this season.

      1. @jimmi-cynic, it’s “heresy” when it’s suggested that it should be applied to a modern F1 car, but “innovative” when talking about historic cars such as the Ferguson P99, Lotus 63 or Matra MS84.

        1. Like comedy, the secret in F1 is…timing.

        2. It’s innovative when the teams are free to develop these ideas themselves and heresy when imposed by the governing body.

      2. sounds like a great idea. but, yes, need to save weight somewhere else. has the MGU-H had its time? it seems like the most innovative, least transferrable and most awkward element of the current power units, so i can’t really decide whether or not it should stay.

        the cars are wider so there’s more weight there, but they were wide in the 80s and they were so much lighter than they are now.

        1. Aren’t the cars much longer now though than in the 80s? I wonder how much weight that contributes

      3. I think its logical to expect 4WD in F1. It’s quite common to see a driver spin out because they used too much accelerator, 4WD would reduce the tendency for this to happen, and would make driving on a wet track safer. It may even reduce the tendency to flat spot a tyre as well when braking.

        1. Making the cars easier to drive is probably one of the reasons why 4WD is NOT in Formula 1 :P

          1. True.

            But bring back manual steering and manual trannies with a manual foot clutch and a 4th pedal to operate the KERS motors and the difficulty will be close to Fangio levels again.

        2. how would 4WD affect braking??

          1. If the front axle had a kers/regen motor as well as the rear, the braking force from the “drag” of the motor falls off as the wheel locks which tends to let the wheel spin a bit and give the driver time to react.

    2. Neil (@neilosjames)
      3rd March 2018, 1:37

      While I don’t believe that Sirotkin got anywhere near where he is on merit, I broadly agree with the rest of the CoTD. He strikes me as a pleasant and quite open guy, and a driver I could definitely grow to like.

      I can remember when his financial folk were trying to shove Sirotkin into a Sauber race seat for 2014… he was obviously far too young and was nowhere near good enough, and I think that episode probably damaged his development somewhat. He got pushed way too hard, far too soon. But he’s done well to come back from that, did moderately well in GP2 (he was occasionally very good) and looks like someone who’s willing to work hard and put in the effort… rather than have it handed to him, as his backers were trying to do in 2014.

      So yeah… I hope he does well and proves people (including me) wrong.

    3. 4WD KERS is a wonderful idea. What F1 needs. And I like how Toto said he probably has the best driver on the modern grid. Not definitely. Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen are my top 3

    4. Until now, im not impressed not a bit of what mclaren progress is, the only thing im sure of is that they should be close to rbr performance wise, they should and they have to, we havent seen them running the medium compound yet so it doesn t look that promising….i really don t know what to expect from them, for me the last 3 years felt like a decade to say the least, with how low they were…

      1. Remy
        I can ease your concerns right now. There in no way that McLaren, using a Renault power unit in its 1st year is going to beat Red bull, who have used that power unit since new formula started in 2014. No chance. They may, on occasion, beat them on accasion during the season but they won’t finish ahead of red bull. They will have a better season than if they stayed with whatever power unit Honda came up with though.

        1. Yet even more excuses for McLaren?!! Come man….. just stop it

      2. Same here. I fear that having been in the back for too long, they are a bit out of touch — sure your car’s aero looked good in theory but how well does it correlate with on-track performance? Hard to tell if the engine was blowing up all the time or had to be tuned down.

      3. It’s too early to gauge performance, especially considering the track conditions for the 1st test. What was comforting, was the fact that they ran 160 plus laps on the last day.

        Honestly, if they start the season with anything lower than the 4th fastest car on the grid, I’d be disappointed. But let’s see their pace over the next test to get a better Idea of the pecking order.

      4. It is believed that the medium tyre was one of the best performing tyres in this test due to the extremely cold temperatures. Warmer temps are needed to actually extract any performance advantage from anything softer than the medium or soft tyres. So basically we don’t really know anything yet. Only next week we can start to see running in more representative conditions.

        1. I think the McLaren is better than it appears to be. It’s a very “Red Bull” car being probably the first full design of Peter Prodoumo ex Newey sidekick. He has a lot to prove, and I really hope this car is aiming for the sharp end. It’s a win-win for F1 if it is..

        2. Indeed. Even if the hyper soft was still faster it would not have been much faster due to the temps. Basically the cold temperature pretty much merged the performance of all the tyres.

          Testing is never a great place to figure out performance differences as there are so many parameters that teams are playing with. We don’t know what fuel load, wing settings, fuel settings etc teams are running and we do not know what test parameters they are aiming for. One team may be trying to push the speed while others are trying for more consistent lap times to compare results to the CFD systems and simulators etc.

    5. The proposed 4WD KERS sounds interesting. The only thing I don’t like about it is the weight of it. Hopefully, the minimum overall car+driver weight will have been reduced by then (from somewhere else), so that the increase in weight the suggested KERS system would bring wouldn’t have too big of an impact.

      1. I wonder how much the car appearance will change, and how much people will object to it, considering the amount of hate given to the halo, which in comparison would be a small add-on

        Theoretically though it would give them more mechanical grip, which seems to be what they are lacking. It could also be used to simplify the front wings, as front grip wouldn’t be as aero dependent as it is now.

        It would also be curious to see of there will be drivers adapting better to it than others

        1. @johnmilk – Wouldn’t front grip become more important as you’d need to push the front down to keep traction when accelerating or braking?

          1. @juan-fanger the weight of the system will give you that

    6. Bottas was a failure and he gets one more year with the benefit of doubt then hes out. Theres no need to sweet word it.
      He is very lucky the “probably best driver” isnt in the best car otherwise he wouldnt have a chance..

      1. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
        3rd March 2018, 10:22

        It seems you haven’t read that article. He was not a failure. It is very hard coming into a team unexpectedly against a multiple world champion in his 5th year with the team. Given this was the case, Bottas did really well. Rosberg only managed to beat Hamilton in his 7th year with the team and that was with some luck. Also, Rosberg was further behind Hamilton than Bottas was last year in both 2014 and 2015. Does that mean Rosberg was a failure at that stage taking into consideration he had been with the team way longer than Bottas and Hamilton hadn’t been there as long as when he was against Bottas? I know Rosberg did suffer bad luck both those years, but taking into consideration Bottas was new to the team last year, I’d say his year looked very nearly as good as them.

        As one COTD said, if Mercedes happen to be at the top again this year and Hamilton retires in a couple more races than Bottas, he could well be champion. I expect an improvement from him this year as he has had time over the winter to help develop his car to suit his liking more. That should help a lot.

        I don’t expect him to beat Hamilton, but I think he should be able to be closer than he was last year. It just seems unfair to me the amount of people not giving Bottas a chance. You don’t always do the best job when you move to a new team. And you could always unexpectedly get much better within a season or two.

        From that article, it seems that Wolf appreciates the respect between Bottas and Hamilton. There is far less tension between the two than between when Rosberg was with Hamilton. I noticed the amount of times Bottas praised Hamilton for his recovery drives and also Hamilton saying what a good job Bottas did. They seem to get on really well. As a team, this could be another important thing that may make them want to keep Bottas if he improves more. The team relationship could well be partly because Hamilton doesn’t feel under pressure. But if you noticed, Hamilton and Rosberg had plenty of clashed with each other when they were together. At least 2 in 2016. Spain and Austria. Bottas may lack a bit of fighting spirit, but he hasn’t been deemed responsible for his or anyone else’s retirement. And in fact, I don’t think he ever has in his entire F1 career even if I include practice session. But maybe that shows he doesn’t take enough risks. But I think being a careful driver can be a benefit to Mercedes. As it seemed to have resulted in Hamilton being more relaxed and gave him and extra boost.

        If Bottas does improve and Mercedes keep him for a few years, I think he has potential to develop and become as good as Rosberg. And I do think he may well manage to win the championship if the circumstances are right, which I know are pretty unlikely.

        1. @thegianthogweed He got one more year with the benefit of doubt, hes performance last year is not what Mercedes wants. If you read between the lines thats exactly what Toto is saying only hes sweetwording it because he cant directly critizise his driver.

          Regarding Rosbergs qualities i think Hamiltons comment about beating him 17 years in a row or whatever it was say enough. Harsh but to the point.

          Bottas timidness can be a good thing sure but with his poor driving he would be out of the team between two training sessions if he started to crash into Hamilton. Rosberg had something to back it up with but even so he was reprimanded for his carelessness.

          I also remember Bottas t-boning kimi very sloppy last year so it doesnt look promising if hes gonna turn his wheel to wheel agression up.

          1. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
            3rd March 2018, 16:59

            That was one of Bottas’s incidents in Baku, but both drivers were equally blamed from the stewards verdict. It is understandable that Mercedes would want better than Bottas, but I still feel you have been a bit harsh on him given the circumstances.

            Guess we just have different views, but I actually think he may well improve enough next year for Mercedes to give him another year, especially if Ricciardo gets signed to Red Bull. If not, I think Bottas would be the ideal driver to replace Kimi. Ferrari have shown interest in him in the past.

    7. McLaren is trying yo poach Stroll?

    8. I’ll say this about Max Mosley, Over the decade I was in F1 & the handful of occasions I was around him I didn’t see anything that made me believe he held racist views, But obviously you never truly know what people truly think & if he does hold the views he’s been accused of them clearly he deserve’s to be called on them as there not acceptable.

      However, The way the Daily Mail seem obsessed with finding every piece of dirt on him to bring him down just because he dare challenge them & the rest of the media on some of there methods is rather concerning. The media should be there to report the news based on facts, They should not be allowed to push there own agenda or go after anybody just because they disagree with them in whatever way.

      If Max does hold these views & they find evidence to support it then make a report based on the facts. To dedicate pages & pages every day (Was there not 10 odd pages dedicated to him on 1 day alone?) for about a week on what comes across as a bit of a hit piece isn’t reporting, It’s a smear campaign & even if the facts they report are correct there still going way over the top in the reporting of those facts based purely on the fact that they don’t like that he tried to stand up to there nonsense.

      It’s things like this that are the reason traditional media are going the way of the dodo, Even if there using facts they do it in such a way that it erodes at trust. It’s certainly why I don’t read these papers anymore.

      1. @gt-racer unfortunately the media is getting more and more untrustworthy. You can see the same news treated differently from station to station, with no reporting or facts, just the editor’s opinion.

        Media is a business nowadays, and they want to sell, few sources remain that actually do journalism. I’m glad I’m commenting on one of those.

        Let me give you an example, this week there was the incident in Leicester, here (Portugal) we were bombarded with reports and live coverage, the suspect of another attack, more lives lost, etc etc. As soon as the conclusion came about that it was an accident, all of a sudden I struggled to find up to date news, the lives of those people weren’t as important now, because that kind of news doesn’t sell as much as a terrorist attack. Even the public own stations are starting to operate like this, so we don’t really know in who or what to trust and it becomes harder to have an informed opinion, because you don’t really know the full picture

        1. @johnmilk Just noticed the very kind compliment you paid in the middle of this, thank you!

      2. I have yet to hear anything that suggests Max believed such opinions beyond the end of the South African apartheid system. Before then, pro-apartheid sentiment was quite a bit more common (if still rare in places like Britain – the Daily Mail would have had a field day with this, even in the late 1980s, had a British politician been heard to say such words).

        Max’s record in motorsport does indeed show he has no tolerance for racism. However, people do change, and I think that is what happened here. Max was a lot more political in his youth than he was when he became middle-aged, and while I think he has been consistently conservative, his opinions within that broad categorisation have moved towards the mainstream. I think the most likely explanation is that Max used to believe in apartheid a very long time ago, but had stopped doing by the early 1990s, if not earlier. (This would also explain why @gt-racer didn’t see anything that made him think Max had racist views – people don’t generally show opinions they’ve decisively rejected).

        Of course, the Daily Mail and Max Mosley have been having a low-key feud ever since the latter won a libel case against the former concerning the salubrious situation in 2008 that nearly resulted in a totally-non-job-related removal from the FIA presidency. People’s opinions do change, and the world is a better place for it. The Daily Mail pretending not to know this for the sake of a stale editorial tiff dishonours journalism.

        1. @alianora-la-canta I would take issue with the term ‘low-key’ feud…

          1. @keithcollantine On sober reflection, I can see where you are coming from…

      3. Neil (@neilosjames)
        3rd March 2018, 16:26

        @gt-racer yeah, I see it the same way – though I’m on the side of the press in this particular debate, and though I’m certainly no fan of Mosley, it’s an obvious hatchet job on him and I can’t see any true (or rather, new) substance to any of it.

        Such is the nature of this rather sad war… each side waiting patiently for any opportunity, however minor, to fling mud at the other.

        As for the media bias stuff… the Mail is very blatant and often unpleasant, but every news source I’ve ever encountered pushes its own agenda so I don’t regard them as a special case. No media outlet deals in nothing but fact.

      4. I don’t know if these allegations are true, or not. I’m guessing they could be easy to prove.

        My greatest “beef” with Mr Mosley comes from the sale of the F1 rights to his close friend and former associate Mr E, enabling the latter to run the series to the ground completely unchecked and with obvious repercussions (CVC capital etc). In light of his later scandal involving the infamous Nazi themed S&M parties, he may not really have had a choice. Either way, he is one of the people that -in my eyes- endangered the sport I love, possibly for personal reasons/profit, hence I have little sympathy for him.

        1. @aetost @ferrox-glideh (Nazi themed S&M parties) Was the Nazi part not discredited in the court case & not why he was awarded damages in that case?

          1. @stefmeister It was not discredited, it’s on tape after all. He was awarded damages because the aforementioned tape was an invasion of his private life, which it was.
            Having a Nazi S&M party is not illegal, it’s just embarrassing! And it proved to be his downfall.
            And like I said, the biggest problem was the way he sold the F1 rights. The party was damaging information that could be (and most probably did) used against him, as a threat/leverage.

          2. @stefmeister @aetost As I understood it, the only illegal bit was that more than one of the S&M practitioners present was paid, and that was breached only on a technicality (it meets the British legal definition of “brothel”, though it does not meet the day-to-day definition). If the Daily Mail had reported it to the police (or rejected the information as an invasion of privacy or some other moral basis), instead of simply making headlines about it, the paper would have been on much stronger ethical grounds. But we’d probably never have heard about it that way, and this is a tabloid we discuss, so sadly that would be about as plausible as asking a lion not to eat the zebra in front of it…

    9. If Williams want to keep their sponsors then they have to be competitive. The simple reason McLaren lost so many of theirs is that the team slumped when Mercedes jumped ship and acquired their own team. If McLaren are the real deal in 2018, and are fighting for podiums and possible wins, then the sponsors will go to them. That could be from Williams and any other team on the grid to be quite honest, outside of the big three teams.

    10. I am not really up to date on 20th century British politics, but wasn’t Max Mosley’s father the facist Oswald Mosley? Of course the apple never really falls too far from the tree. I’m sure his dad’s shadow being cast over him has messed with him all his life (remember those kinky nazi themed S&M party photos?), but that is no justification for his views. He and Bernie should just be ignored, they are embarassing reminders of less enllightened times.

      1. You are correct – Oswald Mosley was Max’s father. Max had trouble being seen as himself rather than as Oswald 2.0 until he went to a minor motor race (I think it was a hillclimb) as a competitor during his university days. At which point he heard someone say “Max Mosley? Must be a relative of Alf Mosley, the coach builder…” I wonder – if someone had said out loud that Max “must be” a relative of Oswald, would Max have turned his attention to a different activity altogether, resulting in the face of F1 over the last 35 years becoming completely different?

        I would prefer it if Max and Bernie were ignored (except when they say something worth listening to and not simply clickbait).

      2. @ferrox-glideh

        (remember those kinky nazi themed S&M party photos?)

        I think this is a prime example of the long-term toxicity of deliberately misleading news (or ‘fake news’, as call them now), no offense to you personally, as you are amongst those who have been misled.

        The orgy was called a ‘sick Nazi orgy’ by News of the World; but their reasons for doing so were as malicious as they were inaccurate. It is true that:
        – the submissive participants wore striped prisoner uniforms, which were compared to those worn concentration camps
        – at least one of the dominatrices wore a German Luftwaffe uniform
        – some of the dominant participants (including Mosley at times) spoke German

        However:
        – the prisoner uniforms differred from nazi concentration camp uniforms in fundamental aspects (e.g. vertical vs. horizontal stripes, colour of the stripes, absence of triangle stickers indicating the group the prisoners belonged to, etc.) and lacked any distinguishing features that would set them apart from generic prison uniforms used in all sorts of contexts in many countries
        – the German Luftwaffe uniform corresponded to the model used by the Bundeswehr (founded in 1955, after the ‘rehabilitation’ and integration of Germany into the NATO), not the one used by the Wehrmacht (1935-1945 [officially 1946]) and therefore lacked any explicit connection with the Nazi regime
        – While some of the talking was done in German, none of it alluded to institutions, concepts, or vocabulary of the Nazis. It was primarily used for its perceived harshness, as well as to create a language barrier between the dominant and the submissive participants, leaving the latter in the dark about what was going to happen.

        Long story short:
        The reasons for the term ‘Nazi orgy’ were a combination of germanophobia (addressing a readership for which the equation German = Nazi is still largely valid) and the fact that Mosley’s past contacts with far-right politics (at least through his father) were undeniable. The allegation that Mosley is not only a depraved person but a Nazi as well, fell on such fertile ground that the term ‘Nazi orgy’ is still in use to this day, even though the courts have, understandably, ruled that a Nazi element was not recognisable, and that the entire event therefore lacked any public interest.

        1. Sound like a kinky NEO-Nazi s&m party to me.

          1. @ferrox-glideh
            But why? (Neo-)Nazism is a relatively clearly defined ideology that doesn’t really depend on clothing or language. A bunch of people who are treating other people badly while wearing uniforms and speaking German – none of that strictly contradicts a Nazi setting, but it lacks several crucial ingredients, some of which can be found in the explanation I gave above.

            You nonchalantly say that those ingredients are enough for you to consider it a Nazi setting, but if that’s the case, your impression is based on a specific flavour of xenophobia, and that’s something that, in my opinion, should never go uncontradicted.

            +++
            meaningless text, please ignore
            +++

            1. @someone or something- I guess this is the comment you were recently referring to, when you went under the different alias of nase.
              My impression of Mosley was never based upon anti-German sentiments, it was based on his racist power-loving sentiments and the fact that he was raised by Oswald Mosley. For instance, it is a matter of public record that he and his brother participated in racist streetfighting in the 1950’s. At the time it was considered scandalous.
              Germany is a fine country with a fine culture, which I have visited firsthand, and I am sure that you will find that there are many Germans who find neo-nazi and neo-nazi-like organizations the world over deplorable too. There is a wonderful German concept called “schadenfreude” which perfectly describes my feeling about the Mosley vs Murdoch case.

    11. What? McLaren poaching Williams? nah, never happened, it would take a few 1000 words to summarise their history.1-0 for McLaren.

      Sainz jr to RB, only if RB is desperate. The journo’s might love the Spaniards but Sainz jr hasn’t shown anything even he has shone over all reasoning. Sainz beat Kvyat, he has to beat Hulk, if he does game over for Hulk, if he doesn’t, sponsors will keep him in f1.

      1. Something that I did notice about that Renault is the amount of Spanish sponsors it has.

        It will be an interesting internal fight that one, I hope one of them doesn’t get the short stick regarding reliability

      2. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
        3rd March 2018, 17:14

        I personally think Sainz isn’t that close to Verstappen or Ricciardo. So I think he needs to get a fair bit better before Red Bull would consider him. Last year had a lot of very good races but 3 terrible ones. And Kvyat was either very good in qualifying or Sainz was as good as a who was considered to be a bad driver who is now no longer here. Kvyat lost heavily to Ricciardo in qualifying in 2015, so that makes me think that Sainz would also really struggle against Verstappen or Ricciardo now they are in Red Bull. Verstappen seemed to have found another level in qualifying last year.

        I could well be wrong, but I think Hulkenberg will just about beat Sianz next year. I think Sainz does have more impressive races, but Hulkenberg to me makes less big mistakes and is more consistent. Sainz did show he could get a lot of points last year even though he messed several races up. So if he develops on this, he could well be a fair bit better than Hulkenberg. My view on Hulkenberg still remains similar. There are very few stand out races I can think of him having. He has several solid ones, but the fact he’s never managed a podium does make me wonder how good he still is. Perez managed 3 while he was team mates with Hulkenberg and 4 before that too. Hulkenberg probably should have managed at least 1 or 2 by now.

        We will have to see how competitive Renault are next year. But I do think these 2 drivers should be pretty close to each other.

      3. @peartree ‘hasn’t shown anything’ apart from being one of the best drivers on the grid most of last year?

        1. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
          3rd March 2018, 18:23

          Are you really talking about Sainz? While I think “Hasn’t shown anything” may come across harsh, saying he’s one of the best drivers on the grid is way to generous in my view. Even if you say for most of the year. He caused more retirements than any other driver on the grid last year. 1 more than his team mate who was known for crashing by many. Also 2 more than Ericsson who is widely criticised. He has plenty of good races but his consistency needs to improve significantly before I could conciser him to be one of the best drivers on the grid. Kieth’s ranking for him as the 10th best driver of 2017 seemed realistic to me and given how up and down he was, I would say his year was just average.

          1. I have always thought Sainz is a bit overrated to be honest. I have a feeling his rating fell during the year i.e. he was higher than 10th at the half way stage.

            I think he is on a par with Hulk but not better and he’s definitely no where near as good as Ric and Vers. Of course with more experience he may improve.

            1. As good as Ricciardo but behind Verstappen, may replace Ricciardo with no impact to Red Bull if Ricciardo moves elsewhere which he would need to to be WDC as Verstappen is too good for him.

        2. @tflb Crashed more than any other driver on the grid, had too many retirements to showcase anything. Whilst kvyat was a underperformi
          ng team mate, Daniil and Sainz jr were neck on neck when both qualified, an outstanding driver stands out. The most impressive thing Sainz did was not to be trounced by Hulk even though Sainz jr had no experience of the car.

          1. @peartree Well we’ll have to agree to disagree then. But then I take anything about ‘performance’ from a Jolyon Palmer fan with a pinch of salt. Sainz didn’t ‘showcase anything’ despite finishing 9th in the championship in one of the worst cars, and putting in some of the best drives of the season, Singapore for example, and his first race for Renault. Looked better than Hulkenberg imo, and will be comfortably ahead this season I think.

            1. @tflb I don’t know why we are talking of Jolyon, Anyway I wanted to see him do well. I don’t wish for Sainz jr to be a bad driver nor a top driver. I just wished people gave credit where credit’s due. How can you compare Hulk and Sainz jr first race when Hulk had reliability problems, anyway as I said, taking in the circunstances Sainz Jr best job last season was being competitive on the Renault. He didn’t out qualify or race Hulk a singke time but it would be unfair to Sainz to have demanded such.

            2. @peartree He was quicker all weekend in the USA, regardless of Nico’s issue in qualifying. Very close over the next two weekends, but a mistake in Mexico for Sainz. Abu Dhabi, Sainz had a technical problem, but his race pace was more impressive and he could have beaten Hulk if his wheel hadn’t fallen off. So pretty much equal, which looks better for Sainz than it does for Nico. Anyway as I said we’ll have to agree to disagree.

            3. @tflb Yes we are going to disagree. I come up with facts, crashes, results, qualifying laps, retirements and you just speculate how you want whatever could’ve happened that didn’t, and the worst part is that I’m complimenting Sainz jr on what he did for Renault….

            4. @peartree ooh I have touched a nerve haven’t I… You, like everyone, myself included, clearly put your own spin on these ‘facts’ that can fail to take into account the background. Fundamentally though it comes down to this – I thought Sainz was one of the better performing drivers this year, you do not. Difference of opinion, neither right or wrong. We’ll see what will happen this season. Until that point, we’re not going to get anywhere with this discussion I think!

            5. @tflb I’m sorry but this is not a case of opinion hence why I keep replying.
              The only subjective thing I said, was “Sainz jr hasn’t shown anything” by which I meant Sainz is not that good. Maybe I’m wrong, I concede that we can disagree in this topic, though you stated Sainz was one of the better drivers last season, and that simply is not true.

              2015-2016
              Sainz jr results and performances can be seen in the form of stats and race reports. To summarize, 1.5 seasons being beaten by Max Verstappen. Give or take half a season ahead of Kvyat.

              2017
              give or take half a season ahead of Kvyat. Renault unfair to judge.

              2017 facts
              -8 Dnf’s, 4 mechanical; 1 Kvyat hit Sainz; 3 his own crashes, Bahrain, Canada and Suzuka (no one was at fault as much as Sainz jr, in 2017)
              -STR Q record 8-6 in his favour, -0.114. (closer than most pairings)
              -Renault record Q +0.198 (average deficit across most pairings)

              These facts prove that Sainz did not perform above average in 2017.

            6. @peartree No, the stats prove nothing, apart from Kvyat being a decent qualifier. 2015, Sainz was mega unlucky and would have been very close to Verstappen in the points otherwise. For 2017 you conveniently don’t mention his excellent race results – he demolished Kvyat there – and the fact that he scored almost all of STR’s points. You can’t prove he was average by selectively quoting stats that mean nothing out of context. I admit he needs to cut out the errors, but the pros outweigh the cons and I stand by my assertion that he was one of the better drivers. I think most would agree.

            7. @tflb Verstappen edged Sainz jr on Saturdays but Verstappen’s pace was much stronger on Sundays. Yes luck is hard to judge, but RB made their decision, they promoted Max.

              I reckon they not only did not promote Sainz yet, as they used his over rated status to loan him as part of the Honda Renault swap.

              I’m sorry if it looked like I selectively left some stats out but yet again, how can I judge his stellar race finishes, I can only guess and my guesses only reinforce my argument. I don’t know how good the car is when everything points out that his team mate Kvyat is very slow. Kvyat was trounced by Ricciardo, in early 2016 Kvyat was on avg .6 slower than Ricciardo in qualifying trim, as you know despite some good results, Shanghai 2016, RB chose to replace Kvyat after the Russian GP, points weren’t enough RB knew he was not quick.

    12. Reduce weight? Nah, lets make them heavier. Four wheel drive f1? Why not just go full electric? The engine is going to sound trash and the car is fully electrically controlled anyways.

      Here’s a simple idea how to make the cars faster, sound better, improve overtaking and make them lighter as well. Replace the hybrid fuel saving engines with 3 liter V8s, V10s and V12s (all three options technically balanced so we have some variety). Keep the fuel flow limit but make it 150kg/h and max tank size 170kg. No rev limits. Even at full tanks (no refueling) the cars would be lighter than the hybrids in every session at all times. And you could have constructors like cosworth, gibson come in with cheap good engines and even teams could realistically all build their own engines as well. Make it something like unlimited engines per year with some parts having to last whole season. After all the engine cost is in the engineering and development. Not in the building of the engine parts. Then make a rule that every engine manufacturer needs to sell engines to at least 2 teams for 5 million per season.

      Every team can now build a competitive car and challenge for the wins. And no engine manufacturers who hold f1 hostage to their whims. What not to like? It is even more green than the current engines because the pollution created by the plethora of batteries and other parts is not there anymore.

      1. @socksolid I’m sorry but sooner or later you will have to realise that we are in 2018, all of what you are suggesting are steps back, F1 would lose much more than there is to gain if it goes down that route.

        You have the date right below your username to remind you.

        I would agree only on your disbelief on the electrification, but fossil fuel isn’t the solution either, but that is a far too extensive argument and not really related to your point, so I will let it rest for now.

        The weight as I mentioned yesterday will eventually come down with better batteries (see FE mew generation for example). I believe they could implement a 4 wheel drive system without increasing the overall weight of the car

        1. Actually I’d prefer electric over the hybrids. And all wheel drive for f1 would be incredibly expensive. New chassis, new front suspension and yes it is impossible to that without adding lots of weight.

          And it is 2018. Toyota prius came out in 1997. That’s how new the hybrid tech is.

      2. @socksolid You and your fantasies, again.

      3. 4×4 F1. They are taking this road relevence rubbish too far…..they want F1 to be like SUV’s?

        600kg, 4 litre v12’s normally aspirated please. Look nothing like roadcars and nothing in common with them. Want road relevance go and do WEC GTE racing.

    13. @socksolid Gibson? They can’t even make guitars properly! I’m still trying to work out which demon infested your spellcheck to come up with that, or perhaps there IS an engine builder called Gibson? If there is, it’s a new one on me.. 🧐

      1. PS. No one is ever going back to agricultural machinery. You can get all the nostalgia and then some at the growing number of Historic race series. The medium term future is turbo, medium long term electro, and the future? Is clearly in Teleporting..Then we can truly have an international F1, with the start in Britain and the finish in Australia! (Or wherever floats your boat). You read it here first.

        1. That’s some Mario Kart type of racing right there, sign me up

      2. Mostly Gibson engines are in LMP2 these days, though they previously provided engines for F3000 and A1GP. So there is pedigree, if mostly in spec series.

    14. Giancarlo Minardi had the right idea years ago when he proposed that teams be allowed to get a title sponsor for each car. Back then the argument against it was it would confuse the fans (for some reason the F1 powers always seem to think that we’re morons) but with F1 being harder to sell to potential sponsors, single car sponsorship seems like a no-brainer.

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