Massa disagrees with penalty for Hamilton collision

2011 Indian Grand Prix

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Felipe Massa, Ferrari, Buddh International Circuit, 2011
Massa retired after colliding with Hamilton

Felipe Massa said he shouldn’t have had a drive-through penalty following his collision with Lewis Hamilton in the Indian Grand Prix.

Massa said after the race: “I can only say I do not share the opinion of the stewards who inflicted the punishment.

“I simply stayed on the ideal line, braking on the limit and staying on the part of the track that was rubbered in. What else could I do?

“It?s the umpteenth time that Hamilton runs into me this year and it seems it?s some sort of fatal attraction. In the past, I tried to talk to him but he did not seem to be interested in doing so.”

Ferrari believe the collision with Hamilton contributed to the suspension failure that put Massa out of the race.

Hamilton said: “I tried to overtake and I tried to come out of it because it didn’t look like he was going to give me any space, and we collided.”

The McLaren driver said he’d tried to talk to Massa before the race: “We had the one-minute silence before the start of the race and me and Felipe were standing next to each other. He hasn’t spoken to me since… a long, long time. So I made an effort, I put my arm around him and said ‘good luck for the race’.”

He added: “It’s a disappointing day I’m very, very sorry for my team. They worked hard all weekend as they always do a deserved a result.”

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    Keith Collantine
    Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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    333 comments on “Massa disagrees with penalty for Hamilton collision”

    1. I think looking at the footage and seeing his helmet looking in his left mirror at least 4 times just before contact is quite damning.

      Massa’s sloppiness shown by being the only one to make the mistake of hitting the sleeping policeman and recking his suspension. Adding that making the mistake TWICE.

      1. @AndyRedden-on-F1 Indeed. He knew exactly where Hamilton was and positioned his car accordingly. But Hamilton got alongside, and despite that Massa turned in as if he wasn’t there. What did he think was going to happen?

        Massa was blameless in a lot of their previous collisions this year. But not this time, and I’m glad the stewards came down hard on what was a cynical piece of driving.

        1. @Keith Collantine – I can’t say I really agree that Massa has been blameless on other occasions to be honest.

          I think in Suzuka he was needlessly close to Hamilton in the breaking zone for the last chicane, and that contact could have been avoided. But then again Singapore was 100% Hamilton’s fault. At Silverstone Massa was never going to get round the outside with out contact as well, so I’d say it’s closer to 50:50 really.

          I have to say I was quite glad Massa got the penalty to be honest, because there have been several occasions over the last couple of seasons where his defensive driving has been totally over the top. I can’t remember exactly the race but there was an incident with Jenson Button where there were too many moves in defending a place.

          As soon as I saw the incident today I immediately thought of the way Webber and Alonso have tussled this year in much more dramatic circumstances (Eau Rouge!!) and there has been little to no contact. If Massa had approached the situation in the same way the contact would never have happened, and we might have been treated to a longer period of battle. Instead he turned in recklessly and probably presumed the stewards would penalise Hamilton instead.

          1. I agree. Massa has been forcing incidents on Hamilton for a while now (Although lewis is at fault for some). In Monaco, Massa turned in on Hamilton purposefully at the hairpin as proved by the earlier identical move by schumacher on hamilton in which hamilton showed that two cars could fit around the turn as long as one did not turn in to tight. Instead Massa turned in early.

            Then in singapore although hamilton misjudged the undercut, massa had again braked very late and turned early forcing hamilton to back off.

            Then the race (Suzuka I think…) where massa for some strange reason tried to go around dive down the outside of hamilton at a chicane where it was clear only one car could get through. Hamilton hit him but understandably did not expect him to be there.

            Massa seems to be very bitter about something and I have a feeling he is simply taking his frustrations out on Hamilton. After all Massa is not allowed to win so crashing and blaming others is surely a good excuse when he can’t blame the circuit for breaking his car. Just happens today he has blamed both…..

            1. Massa could of backed out and still of stayed on track!when are people going to realise, when a car is up the inside of you, you can’t just turn in like nothing is there! Oh look, there’s a car on the inside of me, quick turn in!! Oops to late!!!

            2. Ridiculous. Suzuka was purely Hamilton’s fault, don’t go down the whole ‘didn’t expect him to be there’ excuse. This is a race, not free practice. You don’t go weaving about the braking zone not expecting another car who was close behind to be in the area.
              India’s incident was far more Massa’s fault, hence the deserved penalty; however, it’s a strange place to attempt a pass, especially considering the volatile situation between the two drivers. Lewis should have recognised this.

            3. @Dragon,

              Somehow managed to reply to the wrong post…. (it is late…)

              On another point why was it a stupid place to try a pass? Surely the corner is not very tight and it was plenty wide enough for two cars not to mention the fact that he had all but made the pass by the corner?

            4. He’s still smarting about him losing the WDC to Hamilton in 2008

          2. @Dragon,

            Hamilton did not weave at the suzuka chicane, he moved across to the natural line of the corner. Massa was not alongside (although obviously far enough to be hit) and schumacher tried to go around the outside at that same chicane in quali and ended up off the track!

            1. Not a stupid place to try a pass; but certainly a questionable one if you’re Lewis Hamilton, and the driver you’re trying to pass is Felipe Massa. There are passes that require the cooperation of the other driver you’re tangling with, and I doubt we’ll ever see that if those two are involved. Massa was deservedly penalised, but the whole thing could have been avoided.
              As far as suzuka is concerned; weaving was just my exaggeration, it was indeed Hamilton moving towards the natural racing line. Except that Massa was in that space. It’s not clear Massa was trying to overtake on the outside; maybe he just had more speed into the corner, maybe he wanted a better turn in to get a better run down the start/finish straight. Point is, he was there, and it’s his bit of road.

        2. Lewis was equally in the fault here. He threw his car down the inside, hoping the other driver would jump out of the way to avoid conflict.

          For his move to have stuck, he needed to be ahead before the corner. Instead he was barely along side Massa’s rear wheel. If he was so far along side as you make it out to be, he would have hit Massa’s front wheel, not rear.

          Shortly after, a torro rosso was trying to overtake another car at the same corner. He backed out of it like any sane driver would.

          Had Massa not have turned in, he would have been forced to go off the track and retire. As a result, Lewis would have received a penalty and his race ruined as well.

          The smart thing to do would be to simply wait for a safer opportunity.

          1. With penalties like Massa’s today, I dont doubt more drivers will begin shoving their noses down the inside of corners they know they wont make passes on. They now all know that the other driver has to dive out of the way or face a penalty.

            1. Good. If drivers are going to turn into drivers who are alongside them then they should get penalties.

            2. @infy

              corners they know they wont make passes on

              But the whole point is Hamilton would have made the pass without incident had Massa taken a different line through the corner! So the pass was possible. Look carefully at Hamilton being passed and you’ll see he almost invariably gives room. He’s condemned, someties rightly, sometimes wrongly, for being ambitious in his overtaking, but it’s always seemed to me that he just ‘expects’ the same space he gives other drivers. Unconventional opinion, I know.

            3. So if we regulate racing according to your points infy, it basically means that any overtaking attempt has to be complete before the next corner…. or rather just banned entirely since nothing is certain until proved.

              Hamilton has never been to clever at giving room but this is just plain silly!

              Perhaps you should go back to YouTube and check the epic 79 battle between Vileneuve and Arnoux. It’s called “racing” and it’s what we’re all here for in the first place!

            4. @ poul i suggest you look at how beautifully hamilton and webber danced with their cars in korea for a whole sector, not just one corner – showing respect for each other, giving each other room and racing wheel to wheel.

              massa on the other hand strikes me as a very hectic defender, couple that with all the frustration he has for being alonso’s number 2 and going backwards in almost all of his races, the only result you get is someone not willing to give room or show some respect when being overtaken. and of course, especially to hamilton.

            5. C’mon! Massa was already eaten and should keep his car on the outside and try to fight back for position right after.

            6. @David BR

              I completely agree with you. Only Hamilton and Schumacher tend to give room when being passed, at least from what I’ve noticed recently. Just remember the pass Hamilton made on Schumacher in Monaco.

              Funny though, accident was almost the same as the one in Monaco between Massa and Hamilton, and after seeing the notification on the telly that it’s being investigated I was already pretty furious that Hamilton’s gonna get penalty again for something that’s not his fault – so seeing Massa get it was a surprise.

              Finally, a decision in support of gentleman’s racing instead of defend the defender we’ve got used to recently.

            7. And that would make for a much better race!!!!!!!!!! Instead of Lewis and every other driver scared to make a move incase someone like massa turns in on him.

          2. @Infy – I agree with what you say in part, Hamilton placed his car and expected that Massa would give him room, but this is what I was eluding to. It’s about giving the other driver enough room, and Massa didn’t, he turned in when he clearly knew that Hamilton was there and just expected or presumed he would be in the right.

            The reason why I mentioned Alonso and Webber is because there are several examples of world class drivers going toe-to-toe without turning in on each other, and the battles we’ve been treated to are the product. If you want another example think back to Hamilton passing Button in China. Jenson could have easily carried on turning in to Turn 1 and made contact but he gave him enough room and the pass was clean (granted this was between team mates, so he may have been more cautious, but I think it would have been the same with a driver from another team).

            Also I would probably advise you to watch the footage again, because at one point Hamilton’s front wing was approaching the splitter/cockpit of Massa’s car. So the idea that he was only ever alongside the rear wheel is wrong.

            1. You’ve got a good point actually. In that case of the Chinese Grand Prix if Button was Massa then I guess he would have simply kept turning into the inside and wait for Hamilton to disappear.

          3. Saying he threw the car down the inside sounds like you need to re-watch the incident. He got better drive out of the previous corner and slip-streamed Massa, pulling alongside him almost level while both drivers were still on the throttle and before either committed to turning into the corner. He actually fell back under braking/lifting for the corner, but Massa both kept his foot in more and drove across/into Hamilton.

            If you are no longer allowed to pull level with a car on a straight because the other driver is entitled to drive into you once you arrive at the corner, then I’m not sure overtaking can exist in any other way than slipstreaming or DRS.

          4. Lewis was even with Massa when they reached the apex. Massa had three options- 1) lift and let Lewis through, 2) carry on at speed and go off, and 3) take the corner and collide with Lewis. Massa chose option 3), Lewis saw it and braked to avoid a collision, hence his front wheel hitting Massa’s back wheel. Felipe suffered major brain fade here…the only legit question is why he only got a drive through penalty…should have been a stop and go at the least.

          5. @ david
            lewis would not of made the pass. look at it, he backed out of it before contact. If he remained committed he probably would of evenly banged wheels and both would of bundled their way through like they did at silverstone.

            But lewis changed his mind as he realised it was a silly place to pass. and cos of that contact was made.

            1. He backed out because he could see Massa was going to be a prat and turn in on him.

          6. *** is that guy talking about only at his rear wheel? he had the racing line, there was plenty of room for massa to move over and still get a decent run out of the but he didnt. nothing but wreckless driving

          7. The move on the Torro Rosso was not even slightly the same. Hamilton was nowhere near alongside so he backed off correctly, In the massa incident He was alongside and massa put the breaks on very late in order to try to force hamilton to back off. If hamilton is at fault then every driver should be banned from overtaking anyone!

          8. How can people keep calling this move a “dive” or saying HAM “threw” his car down the inside? Ham was faster out of the previous corner he was CRUISNG up nearly along side MAS but obviously lifted. How is that a DIVE?
            Any other two drivers on the grid could have both gone round the corner together and took the fight to the next corner look at WEB and HAM last race, look at WEB and BUT all season long making moves into corners you “SHOULDN’T” overtake round but all drivers involved took care and raced hard, even MAS, when BUT DIVED down the inside of the last chicane at Spa (now that was a dive) but MAS didn’t turn in to take his optimal line then.
            Massa has not been the same man since his big accident. I don’t think he ever will be.
            He makes a good whipping boy though.

        3. Massa was blameless for the last two times nothing more. In Monaco he did the same thing he did today but unlike here he managed to fool the stewards.

          I would have been surprised if he accepted the blame. He never accepts his mistakes and he always complains.
          He has to learn that just because his car might be slightly in-frond it doesn’t mean he has the right to turn in on people. He has interpreted the rules wrong in his head thinking he can turn on people whenever his slightly in-frond and the stewards will give him justice.
          It seems the stewards started realizing his ways.
          I hope now that he learns and realizes that not all drivers will run off track to avoid getting hit by him so he can become less aggressive with his turning against drivers that try to pass him.

        4. For quite some time I’ve had a feeling that when it comes to being overtaken, Massa’s driving style is similar to a sneaky football player who leaves his leg extended just a fraction of a second longer than necessary after a failed tackle, to inflict damage on the other player in frustration.

          From the outside it seems blameless and just plain unfortunate, but happening for the nth time you begin to wonder.

          It’s been the case ever since the beginning of his F1 career; I remember when he forced Montoya off the racing line (to the dusty part of the track) while having been lapped, resulting in JPM crashing out.

          He has this delicate knack for doing insidiously unsporting stuff in an unnoticed manner. Get him in a tangle with one of the most reckless pilots in the field, and you have an explosive mix.

          1. agree … i never like him, he got what he deserved and more to come failing his way around

          2. @MJ4 – like the analogy! Couldn’t agree more.

        5. “I simply stayed on the ideal line, braking on the limit and staying on the part of the track that was rubbered in. What else could I do?”

          Well…. I agree with what u say Keith. Looking into the mirror so many times, and turned in when Hamilton was already there…… I mean, the explanation ofstaying on the “ideal line” doesn’t make much sense does it, when someone else is already occupying the “ideal line”, so in terms of “What else could I do ?” , well, he would either crash into other, or use other bits of space on the track, so I don’t quite understand his disagreement really. I guess that yes one could argue that Hamilton was causing all the accidents as he was the attacker “going for it”, but I guess a lot of them could be avoided if Massa wasn’t always defending so aggresively.

          1. Well said.

        6. it was a one car bend keith.

          It was a silly place to attempt a pass. He tried it again on other drivers but backed out each time cos they did EXACTLY the same as massa….take the bend.

          It was a racing incident but down to an error of judgement on the place to pass. Infact lewis even backed out of it, knowing he had made a mess of it. Which left it looking like one of them half hearted football tackles then so often ends in injury to the guy that attempted it.

          massa did not weave or make any drastic change of direction. He took the racing line into the bend as the leading driver. Any other line would of meant HE would of crashed.

          not much else to say other than its 2 drivers who have both shown a lack care/skill….or whatever in their overtaking in recent months.

          Fernando and webber have been wheel to wheel in almost every race this season without contact. How can they do it and not massa and hamilton.

          If massa gets a penalty today, then where was lewis at suzuka……?

          Too many penalties in F1 but when they are used they arent even in the slightest bit consistent. Brundle and DC didnt even consider a potential pen for massa. Quite simply cos he took the corner on the only line possible.

          1. In suzuka Massa was inexplicably trying to pass on the outside of a single file chicane. Hamilton like any other driver would not have expected anyone to be there as they would more likely expect the opponent to be on the inside if anything.

            This incident was not on a single file corner as (despite what you may think) there was plenty of space for two cars around there.

            If you think this pass by hamilton was stupid then you must think Senna was the worst driver f1 has ever seen……

            1. on the outside of a single file chicane

              I don’t know where this “single file” corner idea has come from but it’s bunk. If drivers weren’t allowed to pass in a corner it’d be under yellow flags, like the Melco hairpin at Macau.

              You can pass at the chicane at Suzuka, you can pass at turn five in India.

            2. Keith,

              I agree you can pass at the chicane at Suzuka (By single file, I mean it is very very narrow not that you are not allowed to pass) Webber showed that a pass is possible when he passed Lewis in qualy, but that pass was on the inside where another driver would expect a pass to be made, There was pretty much zero chance of a pass around the outside of that chicane as shown by schumacher also on hamilton in qualy.

            3. If the chicane at suzuka is not a place to pass then we should never go there. Its THE place to pass.

              i didnt mean its not possible to pass at the corner he tried, i meant it wasnt very likely, highlighted by the fact he pulled out of it….which caused the incident.

              the camera dont lie. its there for everyone to see. lewis braked first cos he got the attempt wrong.

              nothing intentional or out of order, just not the right place thats all.

              as highlighted by no other pass at the corner. it was a single file corner by nature of its design.

              patience was the name of the game….

            4. @q85,

              Ok show me all the passes made at the chicane at suzuka during the race? Not many at all as it is certainly not THE place to pass.

              Lewis braked first as he was braking at the correct point while massa left his breaking very late. How can that be Lewis’ fault? From what you are saying, if a driver notices another is going to hit him and so brakes to try to avoid incident then he is automatically at fault? How ridiculous!

              Massa braked late knowing Lewis was there in an attempt to dive around the outside and he failed.

            5. lee,

              tell me where massa was to go?

              im not finger waving at lewis as i dont think any penalty should be given for genuine racing mistake. But it was his error, massa didnt make life easy but neither would schumi, lewis or fernando.

              on this logic if you get behind someone now the lead driver has to get out the way….thats madness.

              It was a silly place to pass and the pass was never fully on. Thats all. If massa deserved a penalty for this then lewis should of had one in suzuka.

              IMO in both cases it was poor race craft by 2 under performing drivers.

            6. where massa was to go?

              How about the vast expanse of tarmac to his right?

              Whereas Hamilton had none to his left and had already backed off to try to avoid contact.

        7. Keith,
          Massa has not been entirely blameless in their previous incidents. Monaco in particular, where I think Massa was entirely responsible but got away with it.

          Hamilton has followed Massa for more than six laps at that Monaco race. He had observed Massa’s lines into corners and especially at the hairpin, the wide swing Massa took while following behind Webber.
          Hamilton then made his move, Massa saw him coming and immediately deviated from his normal line. So acute was this deviation, that Massa almost ran into Webber who was directly ahead of him.
          Despite the fact Hamilton had virtually all his wheels on the kerb, they still made contact.
          Hamilton got overtaken at the hairpin and yielded, despite the fact that he could have made it very difficult for Schumacher.
          Massa on the other hand, didn’t even leave 2 cm width. Matter of fact, he was even attempting to climb the kerbs.
          In my opinion, Massa was as guilty then as he is now.

          The fact that a driver is coming from behind, doesn’t mean he must take all responsibility for the failure of an attempted overtake.
          Remember how Button had to take to the escape road, in Australia, to avoid a massive accident with Massa?
          Lets not also forget that a certain Michael Schumacher, had all of his points wiped off from the 2009 season for doing something similar to what Massa has done repeatedly. If it was wrong to do such back then, how come massa seems to be getting away with it.

          1. 2009 season?! Schumacher wasn’t in that season Oliver ! Are you sure you don’t mean 1997?

            1. You are absolutely right. I have no idea how 2009 got in there honest. :-) Because I even remember even counting the championships from Schumacher’s 94/95 double, Hills 96 and Villineuve’s 97, as I was typing.

        8. Not the way I see it… massa knew he was there Hamilton was alongisde but quite clearly Hamilton backed out, Massa saw him back out… but Hamilton didn’t back out enough…

          Hamilton had the opportunity to back out of it completely as it was Massa’s corner but he kept his nose in the way…

          Since when do drivers clearly in front at a corner have to back out to let people overtake them when they’re not even alongside ?

          1. @marlarkey

            You say Massa knew Hamilton was alongside him, but that Hamilton should have backed off because he wasn’t alongside. Which is it?

            1. No I’m saying Hamilton DID back off – you can hear it quite clearly in the video coverage… he backed off.. Massa saw he backed off and turned in on the assumption that Hamilton was getting out of it…

              Think about it, Hamilton was almost fully alongside Massa but further along Hamilton was further back, only just alongside Massa’s rear wheels. Hamilton backed off, as you can hear… he just didn’t back off enough.

              After backing out, Hamilton stayed in (but further back). Massa reacted to Hamilton backing off by thinking he was safe to turn in and did so.

              So from Massa’s perspective he acted perfectly reasonably. If there was any blame it was Hamilton’s than Massa’s, Hamilton should either have backed off completely giving Massa room to take his line. Or he should have stayed completely alongside Massa forcing Massa out wide.

              But personally though I’d have just put it down as a racing incident. I’m not fond of all these ‘punishments’ deciding the races.

              If it is 50-50, like this one, then there should be no punishment either way… both drivers should be allowed to fume about it but neither should be punished.

              The rule is there for the obvious clear cut cases, not for 50-50 cases like this.

            2. @Keith – I would keep a link to this article handy for when users try to claim you’re biased against Lewis like we talked about yesterday!!

          2. Did you see the same incident as everyone else? Hamilton was alongside Massa all the way up to the breaking zone. Hamilton breaked for the corner (probably slightly more than usual noticing massa moving across) and massa breaked very late (probably in an attempt to force hamilton to back out).

            Massa knew he was there all the way to the point of contact to why did massa not take a wider line? You can’t take a racing line when there is another car in the way! Just like you can’t cut a corner when there is a giant bump on the inside, although again massa seems to think the track hit his car rather than him hitting the bump. Seems that massa thinks he can’t ever do anything wrong….

            1. massa didnt move across, he took the bend. its a different thing. Look at it!!! not one drastic move by massa at all

              i think some of you think a driver shouldnt bother to take a corner if someone is near him.

              i dont know about you, but i like to see racing. not after you chum. the way we are going with this BS and DRS its who ever is fastest wins…..thats qualifying not racing.

              If massa is to blame for this then schumi was to blame at silverstone 1995 on that bizzare logic.

              they only gave a pen to massa cos lewis has had too many.

            2. q85

              Massa took the racing line which meant he had to move across the track! I did not say he weaved.

              Lewis was already there though so instead of breaking and letting lewis through he braked late and tried to dive into the corner first so causing the incident.

              Massa was perfectly able to take the corner wide and avoid an incident but chose not to and not for the first time either. Hamilton was fully alongside up to the breaking zone.

        9. when Massa turned for the corner he was ahead of Hamilton by far and Where they touched prove that Hamilton is to blame and if Hamilton backed off he could avoid the accident.
          i think Massa could avoid the accident too if he left room for Hamilton but that mean he has to give the position away.

          1. Hamilton did back off. The fact that he did and they still made contact shows he was far enough alongside to expect Massa to give him room.

            1. Exactly! Go back 2 weeks and look at the Hamilton – Webber battle. Going into turn 7 Mark was in a similar position as Lewis was today. The difference is, Lewis respected Mark and gave him space, leading to a brilliant battle! Massa failed to show a fellow driver respect, not for the first time, left no room and instead of a great battle we have this. Very poor from Massa considering recent events in the world of Motorsport

        10. @Keith Collantine to be honest with you, I consider Massa escapade with Hamilton at Monaco more far more blatant and cynical than today’s turning in to swipe Hamiltons nose off. He has been doing it forever more and I think the Stewards have been fooled partly because of who Hamilton is and the fact that Hamilton is the one always almost making the move. But just coming out of last weekend Korean GP where you see Hamilton and Weber dicing to the very end without contact, you can sort of see why the Steward will take a different view why there must not always be a contact when there is an overtake as long as both drivers are reasonable. I can’t think of when Massa has been reasonable this year unless when allowing Alonso to overtake him.

        11. There was no logical reason for Massa to have a drive through. It should either been a racing incident with no penalty or a drive through for Lewis. It is the responsibility of the overtaking driver to get by without contact. Lewis once again put himself in a bad position and tried a move in a place that was always going to be difficult. If he is quicker what for a spot on the track that is not so risky like a DRS zone maybe.

          1. It is the responsibility of the overtaking driver to get by without contact

            Says who?

            1. Racing etiquette.

              So then what you are say is that you can just push people out of your way to go through?

              A touch where nobody goes off and a position is exchanged is one thing, but breaking your front wing and putting another car into a spin is another.

        12. @Keith

          “Massa turned in as if he wasn’t there”

          I think that really says it all. Initially I just assumed Hamilton would get the penalty (as per usual), but upon seeing the reply it was pretty clear to see that Massa slammed the door shut violently enough to cause a collision despite Lewis backing out of it.

        13. I dont know what u guys opinion. But what i can see is.. Massa looks like purposely cause collision. I watch f1 every race, so many times i saw this kind of overtaking style (massa n hamilton), i can say its a simple but very good overtaking if hamilton can get through. For my opinion here, massa very unprofessional in this situation. He can see hamilton front wheel n front wing clearly beside him, he should try to avoid collision while try his best to defence his position from hamilton. Look at button overtook webber situation, both of them very near to each other, n looks like almost collide but they did not, bcoz they drive in very professional way. 2008 massa is very good driver but now i have to admit his performance very poor and unprofessional. So massa “I know u dislike hamilton, but dont show ur mad situation in the race!!!!” That cause yourself a trouble and ferrari team will think twice to sign ur next contract or not. Ferrari is well known to be very professional team, but u spoilt their name because u r “too following ur heart feeling when u mad!!”.

      2. Massa shouldn’t have looked left before deciding to turn in on Lewis. He should have looked in the mirror at the tributes to two drivers who died needlessly which were on his own helmet. Instead, he launched his car at another racer’s front tyre and almost got launched into the air/climbed over the other cockpit. A disgusting display of petulance from a driver I no longer have any respect for.

        1. @Hairs It’s OK to have an opinion, but try to be reasonable and less provocative. It’s obvious that you’re probably going to get a reaction to that…

          1. @damonsmedley I’m bring straightforward, not provocative, and I’m not posting in an attempt to get a reaction. Jackie Stewart talked before the race about drivers taking liberties with contract in open wheel cars. Massa went out and did exactly that. His swipe on Lewis was just as premeditated, dangerous and unacceptable as Maldonado’s

            1. @Hairs

              You’re saying it was premeditated? It was cynical, at the very worst, but to suggest it was premeditated is just having a dig at Felipe.

              Maldonado deliberately swiped Lewis in a childish act of revenge, but Massa merely turned in to the corner in the hope that Hamilton would engage his brain and realise he’s way too far back to make a move into a corner like that.

              But I suppose the best option for Felipe would be just to pull over every time Hamilton gets close to him. At least then he might have a chance of not being taken out.

          2. @damonsmedley Pastor took a childish, dangerous, and unacceptable swipe at another driver that could have resulted in either of them, or a spectator, bring seriously injured. It was deliberate, and he should have been banned from the next racer for it. Schumacher almost put Rubens in the pitwall last year, and stared at him all the while he was doing it. He should have been banned from the next event, but at least when it was shown to him, he was genuinely repentant.

            Massa has openly admitted that he knew Hamilton was there, but he deliberately closed the door on another driver, watching him all the while, and not only is he not repentant, or reflective, given the events in Vegas, he actually blames Hamilton – who did everything he could to race fairly, and get out of the manoeuvre. I don’t allege anything. Massa said it was premeditated. It is not the first time he’s done it either.

            Look at Webber, Alonso, Button and Vettel – or even Schumacher and Petrov sometimes. They all know how to defend a position hard but fair, and when to admit the place is lost. There is none of that in Massa’s driving. He turns in on people, he puts his car in stupid positions, he can’t attack or defend cleanly. And all the time, he blames other people, the track, whatever. Massa admits this was a cynical deliberate move. He deserves all the criticism he gets.

            1. @Hairs

              Massa said it was premeditated.

              When? Do you have a link? I’ve not seen that quote.

              Bringing what happened in Vegas into it is extremely cruel. You must realise how horrible and serious these allegations you’re making against Felipe are. He’s trying to race. He made a mistake. Hamilton was more at fault, however, in my own and the opinion of many others.

              Massa didn’t turn in to cause an accident, he turned in (somewhat blindly) hoping Hamilton would back out. Why is everyone saying Massa should have backed out when he was ahead and going too fast to move aside and stay on the track, yet no-one seems to care that Lewis had ample opportunity to come out of the throttle and avoid an accident.

              My point is; how did Lewis expect the move to work. He was late on the brakes, on the dirty line and carrying way too much speed. Anyone who says they could have gone through the corner side-by-side must be mistaking it for a different corner. I’m not even convinced Hamilton would have made the corner even if Massa let him go.

              Felipe did nothing wrong, really. With hindsight, yes, turning in was the wrong decision as it took him out, but he took the decision that would lose him the least amount of time if it worked. Moving aside would have almost certainly meant he’d run wide and lose further positions. At least with turning in, there’s a chance Lewis will recognise the move isn’t going to work and back out of it. If Lewis was completely side-by-side with Massa, then Felipe should let him by. But he wasn’t – so anyone would assume Lewis wasn’t just going to keep his nose half-way up the inside.

              This is my opinion and my interpretation. Obviously it’s different to yours and I respect your view, but I’m also going to move on now. You can post a rebuttal and I’ll happily read it and take it on board, but I won’t argue with you over it. Agree to disagree, yes? :)

            2. Sorry, there’s a few typos in there, too! :(

            3. @damonsmedley I appreciate the debate. Your points are well argued. If you listen to the 5 live chequered flag podcast, Massa says clearly that he did look over, he knew Hamilton was there, and assumed he could turn in “because I braked later than him”. Massa’s attitude is “I want that bit of track and I don’t care if there’s another car there, it’s his problem”. That’s bull, it’s bad race craft and it’s the sign of an untrustworthy driver. In Japan Massa argued Hamilton was stupid and dangerous for not seeing Massa’s car in his blind spot, when Massa wasn’t anywhere near an overtaking position, and Lewis wasn’t looking at him. Yet he then pulls a deliberate turn-in on another driver, who he is looking at, and still blames the other guy! It’s utter nonsense.

              I don’t bring up Vegas lightly, or frivolously. One weekend Massa is complaining that Lewis is “dangerous” and”going to get someone killed” when he overtakes Massa, carefully and safely, at 20 miles an hour in Singapore practice. This weekend, after a graphic and horrendous example of the consequences of open wheel cars interlocking wheels, or getting launched in the air by the shape of the nosecone, he pulls in on another car that he should know hadn’t moved out of the space he wanted to move into. He very nearly got launched. It was reckless, stupid, incompetent and unnecessary. A better driver would not have done it.

              As to “many people agree”, well, the first article was full of comments which were very anti-Massa. The day after Brundle’s column, people start thinking it’s a racing incident. Baa, go the sheep, I’m sorry to say.


        Why don’t we have a second look? Seems like Ham was behind and made another ham-fisted move. Honestly, who in their right mind would expect another racing driver to just stand by? Would you really expect any other driver to do so, and would you respect that driver who promptly moved over? I don’t mind if people are taking sides, but video evidence says Massa had the right of way, and Ham just made a fist of it!

        1. From your own video, Hamilton is right alongside, has the inside line to the corner, sees Massa is going to turn in on him, and attempts to back out of it. Massa still, having watched all this, decided to drive into him.

        2. If you can’t see (from your own video) the simple fact that Hamilton was alongside before the corner and Massa turned in regardless, then it is pointless even trying to talk about it.

        3. You seem to be mistaking being behind at the point of contact and being behind at the time of the corner. They were alongside each other until hamilton breaked and massa did not. It was Massa diving around the outside rather than Hamilton diving up the inside.

          1. I just chuckled so hard, my drink came out of my nose… if it is a right hand turn drivers are approaching it from left hand side of the track… So, if it is a left hand turn drivers start from the right of the track. They do it as it allows them maximum speed through a corner… incidentally that line is called apex, but you already knew that!

            1. Apex isn’t the line, its the corner clipping point, where the cars pass closest to the bend’s tip.

      4. Hey what i see, at the corner where massa n hamilton collided, the track is wide enough to avoid collision. When u r racing alone yes 100% u will simply follow the racing line to cut a corner. But when in overtaking situation it would be different. Massa cearly know hamilton alongside him. A good driver will not necessarily follow the racing line at corner when he know there’s another driver beside him. He should try his best to avoid collision n defences his position in professional way. Massa style is very unprofessional. Its happen a lot to other f1 driver where overtaking happened at corner, they try to avoid collision, racing line is not a reason to blame hamilton here. To me massa is on fault. He should grow up in mind. Hamilton now have change a lot, he grow up, unlike b4 where he always criticise by many. But now he change.

    2. From autosport

      Asked if he felt he was now part of a ‘feud’, Massa replied: “Maybe for him. Because all the incidents are that he touched my car. So, I didn’t do anything wrong.”

      Okay, I’m sorry mate, but “the other one crashed me” isn’t a brilliant argument.

      On the other hand, didn’t Massa want to talk to Hamilton after Singapore and LH just walked away? now to say “he’s not spoken to me in a long time” sounds ridiculous. Or maybe he tried to talk during the 1 minute silence…

      1. I’m not sure which race it was but I recall Massa walking up behind Hamilton when he was about to talk to the media, grabbing his shoulder and saying something in an obviously aggressive fashion. Hamilton shrugged him off, said “don’t touch me” and turned back to the interviewer, looking slightly shaken.
        Afterwards Massa claimed to have “tried to talk” to Hamilton – I now believe precisely nothing that Massa says.
        Not that I believe everything Hamilton says either… but of the two, Massa is clearly the more over-emotional and over-reactive of them.

        1. No Massa had tried to speak to Hamilton before that apparently, but yes Massa seems to be overeacting a bit

          1. Trenthamfolk (@)
            30th October 2011, 15:43

            @zippyone I take it you’re referring to the Paddock at Singapore? Lol :-)

            Massa is becoming as whiny and as childish as the Fernando Alonso of old. Thankfully, Fernando seems to have matured a bit, and I’m starting to enjoy his racing again. Massa on the other hand?

          2. It’s only apparent in Massa’s dubious recollection – and the imagination of gullible and biased F1 fans – that Hamilton ignored him. Other than the moment caught on camera did Massa actually approach Hamilton? Did Hamilton subsequently tell Massa to **** off at some moment? Or maybe, and more likely, was Hamilton too busy being dragged from interview to interview to notice any irate drivers skulking around? Of course without bothering to get Hamilton’s take critics swallow Massa’s – inconsistencies and all.

      2. It really has an eary resemblance to Hamiltons reaction to getting penalized earlier in the season.

        I just hope that both will have a good look at themselves, then watch some of the great battling between Alonso, Webber, Vettel and quite a few Button moments this year and switch on that sense of where the others are.
        Its probably about confidence in youself to be able to not close the door, as it shows you know you might still get back later, or just you know you did do to the best you could there.

        1. On your first sentence: I was also thinking about that – and Hamilton found that wasn’t really the best reaction to getting a penalty to a collision.

          Well said about the rest too.

    3. Massa and Hamilton should show each other a bit more respect on and off track. Both are saying that other driver won’t talk to them, and neither ever accept responsibility for the collisions. For Hamilton to keep saying “he turned into me” and for Massa to say “Hamilton keeps running into me” is getting annoying.

      Also, I swear it was Alonso whom Hamilton was standing next to during the minutes silence.

      1. They deserve each other. Can’t wait for their next crash in Abu Dhabi.

      2. But Hamilton doesn’t say always ” he turn into me”. He accepted the blame when he it was his fault. Massa is the one that never accepts blame no matter what.

        1. From what I’ve seen, both Hamilton and Massa are as bad as each other.

          1. But Hamilton does show respect to other drivers. When he is being overtaken he always leaves space and doesn’t cut them up. Massa is the opposite, the only driver Massa respects on track is Alonso and thats only because he’s told to.

            1. Off the track, they’re as bad as each other.

          2. ACtually the stewards should give them both a drive-through penalty next time :)

    4. “tried to take the racing line what else could i do” imagine if they all did this into the first corner, took the racing line! no one would finish, what an idiot.

      1. Exactly. News flash Massa buy, you can’t act like you are alone on the track when you are fighting for position.
        Is this guy even serious? Does he really thing he can just keep to the racing line when another car is by his side and the other guy just has to disappear?
        No one will ever fight side by side in a corner like that. The guy doesn’t even comprehend the rules of racing.

    5. I simply stayed on the ideal line, braking on the limit and staying on the part of the track that was rubbered in. What else could I do?

      Massa has the answer to his own question: go off the ideal line. He has no ‘right’ to it if he’s already lost it. And certainly when another car is there. He’s basically admitting he drove into Hamilton.

      The real question to ask himself is why he was unable to drive round the circuit without wrecking the car. The sooner Ferrari dump him, the better, he’s become an unbearable loser since ceding to Alonso. He’s also enjoyed a free ride from the stewards when a less Massa-tolerant reading of the evidence from Monaco onwards this season he’s been driving into Hamilton recklessly whenever the latter has tried passing him. His comments today confirm that impression.

    6. I knew I should’ve saved that other comment in anticipation of a dedicated article!

      “I simply stayed on the ideal line, braking on the limit and staying on the part of the track that was rubbered in. What else could I do?

      Maybe not run into someone who was alongside you, perhaps? You did stay on the ideal line, but it was already occupied by Lewis. He couldn’t just ‘disappear’, could he? You should have left some space and if you had covered the inside and not allowed him to come level with you, you wouldn’t have been in that position in the first place!

      Ferrari believe the collision with Hamilton contributed to the suspension failure that put Massa out of the race.

      That is laughable. Everybody else managed those chicanes and kerbs just fine all weekend – Felipe ran over them twice. I really, really honestly want to like Ferrari and Felipe, but by God do they make it hard to empathise with them sometimes.

      The McLaren driver said he’d tried to talk to Massa before the race: “We had the one-minute silence before the start of the race and me and Felipe were standing next to each other. He hasn’t spoken to me since… a long, long time. So I made an effort, I put my arm around him and said ‘good luck for the race’.”

      Lewis has made some silly mistakes this year but he’s also recieved more than his fair share of criticism for it. I respect Lewis for trying to reach out and do the right thing. The fact Felipe appears to have moaned about him doing so in that post-race interview is pretty poor form in my opinion.

      When you think that these two were fighting each other for the Championship just three years ago, it’s rather embarrassing.

      1. I think you could argue that Massa didn’t have anywhere else to go but off the track, which obviously isn’t ideal. I think drivers should leave space, but not go so far out of their way to do so, which is why I see this as a 50/50 racing incident.

        1. @slr But how was Hamilton supposed to give him more room? Massa was the only who tried to close the door on a car that was already alongside him.

          Unless Hamilton had a button on his steering wheel marked “vanish” it wasn’t going to happen.

          1. Well it’s Massa who has got to give the room, but I don’t think there was much he could have done without going off the road.

            1. What are you talking about? The guy had all the space in the world?
              What to you mean go off track. I don’t see the slightest danger of going of track for him.

            2. Massas car has brakes just like everyone elses. If he was going too quick on the corner entry then that was his fault!

            3. So what if he had to go off road? That doesn’t give him the right to drive into Hamilton. Assuming Massa had nowhere to go other than off the track, he should have done so, avoided contact, then complained to the stewards about dangerous driving by Hamilton.

          2. Could he have backed out of the move a little earlier or was it plain for all to see that there was enough space for both drivers to make it through? Every time I saw the incident this morning I felt that Lewis could have backed out of it a little.

            1. Its called driving etiquette, Massa knew he was there, and should have given room to attack later with DRS.
              Should be noted as bad as Lewis’ season has been, Massa is yet to be on the podium…

            2. Of course the person trying to make a pass can back out earlier, but then we’d never get no overtakes…

              It’s upto the car infront to decide that he lost the place or not. He can give a bit of space and try to race side-by-side (Webber/Alonso Eu Rouge?), or turn in as if the cars not there.

              I cant rememebr off the top of my head of some good side-by-side racing with Massa, he seems to either completly yeild, or drive into the other car.

            3. Trenthamfolk (@)
              30th October 2011, 14:57

              if it was Massa’s obligation to avoid the collision (and it was, hence the penalty) then why should Hamilton have backed out?

              I can see why is was plain for all to see if you concede that Massa is stubborn as a mule and would rather crash than let Hamilton pass.

            4. of course he could. But if drivers backed off, no one would overtake.

              Massa shouldn’t have allowed him get anywhere near him in the first place. Once he opened the door, he shouldn’t have shut it altogether!

            5. if you watch it again and listen to hamilton’s engine you will hear he did backout before massa. IMO massa turned in on purpose knowing there’d be contact, and hamilton would hopefully get the penalty.

          3. Agree. Massa- whether it has something to do with past incidents- turned onto Lewis. He had the line, and perfect position. Hamilton lifted off, and Massa kept coming. It reminded me of Villuenueve- Schumacher 1997, but Jacques was further forward.

        2. You might argue that @slr, but just think back at what Massa felt when Hamilton “did not see him” and closed the door?

          I think the did not see one is a lame excuse and a lot of great drivers have shown over the years, that its the better thing to just give a bit of room, regroup and attack later on. Or have the self confidence to know you did make the best of the situation

          1. No driver purposefully crashes (okay, maybe B. Senna, and the old M. Schumacher), it’s much more likely that they misjudge or fail to see what’s going on.

            Massa probably thought Hamilton had backed right off. Probably. For all his faults, Massa doesn’t want another accident.

            In the case where Hamilton “did not see” Massa, the commentators (DC I think) seemed to think that revised aero on Hamilton’s car had him sitting very low – possibly restricting his view of the mirrors. Hamilton commented on poor visibility a couple of times after the incident. So maybe there’s some truth in it, or maybe Hamilton was looking the wrong way…

            1. Sorry, I meant Piquet Jr not Senna. Brain crash.

      2. the incident with the kerb really worries me. He didn’t just attack the kerb, he went further, and touched that orange concrete thing with the wishbone! which shows he was cutting the corner by about 1 meter?

        I’m glad they didn’t change it after Massa complained. If everyone else can get through without problem, so should Massa. In the end, that thing is designed to stop the drivers cuting the corner…

        1. Well he didn’t miss it by as much as Kobayashi :P

        2. Exactly; the boundaries of the racetrack are defined by the white lines that go along both sides of the road. Anything you drive on beyond that is an attempt t shorten the track as much as possible by cutting chunks out of it at every turn (or lengthen it on exit to maintain a high speed).

          This is to be expected of course, hence why the edges of track that are most likely to be crossed are lined with rumble strips which essentially point out how much margin of error you have when attempting to cut/extend a corner. Anything after that is “taking it too far” and I for one am glad there’s measures in place (where safe) to deter drivers from trying to create their own racetrack :)

      3. Right, the first thing I’d like to say is that we are all entitled to an opinion and as long as we all stay fair and don’t attack each other or start throwing insults, I think debate is good and healthy. It keeps us passionate. We’re all friends at the end of the day. We just support different drivers and teams. This is debate over our favourite topic and it doesn’t define who we are.

        This is my interpretation. Some will agree and some will disagree, but I feel safer commenting here than anywhere else, so here goes:

        Hamilton had a look at Massa into turn 4 but pulled out of it, perhaps thinking of having a go next time around. But on the exit, for whatever reason, Massa was slow and struggled to get away as he perhaps should have. Hamilton had the momentum and a slipstream and had a peek at Massa, but I think he should have backed out at that point.

        Basically, this is how I saw the incident.

        Picture 1: Hamilton has a look down the inside of Massa. He’s simply exploring the limits and having a peek at this stage, in my opinion.

        Picture 2: With the momentum, Hamilton is now with a wheel alongside Felipe’s rear axle. This means he has to make his decision on whether the move is going to happen or not pretty soon.

        Picture 3: Hamilton is edging further alongside Massa.

        Picture 4: It looks like Hamilton’s made his decision. He’s going to try the move. But in order for it to work, he’s going to have to be very late and brave on the brakes, as it’s not a traditional overtaking spot.

        Picture 5: But Massa has braked later than Lewis, suggesting Hamilton made a half-hearted attempt at pulling off the move. The only way out of this now is for either Hamilton to brake heavily to miss the back of the Ferrari, or Massa to run wide into the run-off, as he’s already braking heavily by now.

        Picture 6: The wedge begins to close. This is bad news and there are few things that either driver could have done. In fact, I’m not sure anything they could have done would have seen them both make the corner and stay on track. Massa is taking his normal line into the corner, whilst Lewis is trying a half-hearted lunge down the inside, but he braked far too early to get properly up the inside and alert Massa of his whereabouts.

        Picture 7: This is only going to end badly now. The only way to avoid contact is for either Lewis to take to the grass on the inside, or for Felipe to stop turning in and take to the run-off on the outside. The speed at which they are travelling will not realistically allow them to go through the corner side-by-side and stay on the track. Someone has to get out of it in order for it to work.

        But why should that be Felipe? If Felipe stopped turning in and let Hamilton through, that would send a message to Lewis that all he has to do is get two wheels alongside and the position is as good as his. Massa can’t just give positions away. He’s racing for his career and honestly, I think he’s been treated harshly considering what he’s been through. Massa needs to send a message to Lewis that he’s not going to be scared off the road.

        Picture 8: Well, that was the end result. Neither driver yielded and they paid the price. To say it was more Massa’s fault than Hamilton’s, however, is harsh and in my opinion (remember, this is just my interpretation of how it happened) incorrect.

        It was, for sure, an avoidable accident, but they both could have done just as much to stop it from happening. Massa turned in and Hamilton refused to back off. They were both in the wrong to an extent.

        Furthermore, I watched the incident from the trackside camera, and you can see that Felipe is checking his mirrors before Hamilton pulls to the inside, but afterwards, he’s committed to turning into the corner and is obviously unaware of Hamilton’s proximity.

        This was, at the very worst, a racing incident.

        1. @damonsmedley As I said in the race report, Hamilton was drawing alongside Massa, Massa knew he was there and chose to turn in anyway.

          Hamilton couldn’t have avoided the contact (he clearly tried to and admitted as much himself). Massa could have, but didn’t. That’s why he got the penalty.

          1. Then Keith to you also admit that in Monaco it was actually Maldonado’s fault and not Lewis?
            Because you can’t get more similar than that.

            1. Fair point, and one that had crossed my mind as well. Would be interested to know what others think?

              Monaco –

              India –

              At first glance, they do look quite similar, but the only camera angle I could find for Monaco isn’t good for making comparisons.

            2. Ive always said it was Maldonado’s fault. He always does defend positions very simalrly to Massa. If you want to see top class, fair defensive driving watch Petrov. He is very very good in that area.

            3. I always thought the Maldonado incident was so similar to when Hamilton passed Schumacher, only Schumacher didn’t turn in. But the camera angles weren’t great, so I assumed either the stewards were wrong or more likely could see something we couldn’t.

            4. That was Maldonados fault. If you watch a frame by frame replay of the pass hamilton made on Schumacher and the one he made on maldonado they were identical (ie both of the cars positions on track) until the last moment when maldonado braked late and turned in early. Schumacher took a wider line in order to avoid collision Maldonado obviously is not as experienced so tried to cut lewis off instead.

              One pass was regarded as amazing the other was a penalty even though lewis’ move was identical on both….

          2. I think he knew he was there, but he probably didn’t expect Lewis to actually go through with the move. He may have thought it was just a look or a peek to scare him, but in my opinion, Felipe didn’t do anything malicious or intentional. I’m not saying Massa’s in the clear, but I certainly don’t think that was worthy of a penalty.

        2. Damon, the photos just show how much track was still available to Massa on the right when he cut into Hamilton. In his post-race comments he makes it clear that he saw Hamilton and he didn’t suggest he couldn’t have made the corner without colliding, only that he didn’t want to go off the ideal line.

          1. @David-BR @keithcollantine @Magnificent-Geoffrey @simon999 @Jonnyw360f1 @trenthamfolk I’ve been failing with the mentioning so I’ll mention you all so you know I’ve replied! :P

            David, I haven’t seen any post-race interviews so I can’t judge. I’ll have to wait until someone uploads them to YouTube, but until then, I’m probably not well prepared to enter into a deep debate. :)

            Keith, I’ve replied above.

            Mag, ” ”

            Simon, replied below.

            Jonny, thanks! But I think the Singapore penalty was more down to the fact it was entirely Hamilton’s fault.

            Trent, I don’t think he crashed deliberately. Massa wouldn’t risk his own race and a retirement just to prove a point. I honestly think he thought he was clear. Or maybe he assumed Hamilton was going to lift. I don’t know and we never will know!

            1. @damonsmedley, assuming Massa had a race, but actually he didin’t – but I might be wrong, he had lost his driving capability long ago

        3. @Damonsmedley

          Furthermore, I watched the incident from the trackside camera, and you can see that Felipe is checking his mirrors before Hamilton pulls to the inside, but afterwards, he’s committed to turning into the corner and is obviously unaware of Hamilton’s proximity.

          Thank you. With one sentence, you’ve managed to sum up why Massa was the one who deserved the penalty.

          1. @MagnificentGeoffrey Elaborate! And please, I’m trying to be nice here.

        4. What’s with this perception of Hamilton “scaring people off the road”? He attempted an overtake and successfully got down the inside of Massa as they approached the corner. No scare tactics.

          The way I see it, there are two possibilities here:

          1.) As you suggest, Massa didn’t realise how close Hamilton was to him as he turned into the corner. This would swing things towards a racing incident.

          2.) Massa did have an idea of where Hamilton was as they approached the corner, which certainly justfies a penality. It was impossible for him to take the racing line and not hit Hamilton, therefore he should have taken a different line. The fact that might have resulted in him having to go wide round the corner is irrelevant – you can’t turn into another driver when you know they are alongside you and have the inside line.

          I doubt even the stewards would have known for certain which scenario actually took place, but it seems they felt the evidence pointed towards the latter.

          1. But he wouldn’t have just had to take a different line, he’d most likely have had to go off the track and risk having an accident. That’s not how it should be. In my opinion, of course.

            1. But now he instead steered in and sort of guaranteed a collision, didn’t he? He risked it bc. he wanted to not lose the position at a point where HAM could hardly back out more than he did.

            2. How persistent!!! Would you please care to look how wide the track is to the right of Massa? Do you possibly remember Hamilton and Webber driving through the Korean series of S-es just two weeks ago? Why Webber, who was at the beginning of the clash on the ideal line and Hamilton sneaked inside, did not feel entitled to revert to the ideal line!
              And besides, what you consider halfhearted attempt because of earlier braking is due to two things. First, Hamilton knew what he might expect form Massa. Second, having inside line you HAVE to break early!

        5. I agree with @damonsmedley in that it was a racing incident, and that both drivers were equally at fault. However, the fact that Lewis had to pit for repairs made the decision for the stewards: they had to give Massa a penalty in order that they were both equally impeded by the incident, and that is exactly what they did at Singapore, albeit to the other driver.

          1. That is an interesting point of view, and I think I might have said something like that in Singapore. But I do wonder if it is entirely right for a penalty to be based on the result, regardless of the action.

            I suppose that being careless when it doesn’t result in harm, means a close call and lucky escape also in most of our justice systems, while being clumsy causing great harm could result in punishment.

            1. Hm, a correction/addition: Of course, here and in Singapore, the penalty given wasn’t regardless of the action, but rather bc. the stewards found the wore course of action was chosen.

        6. Trenthamfolk (@)
          30th October 2011, 15:57

          @damonsmedley Thanks for the pictures, and an interesting read! I have to side with Keith on this one. There was one driver that could have avoided the incident, and that driver was Massa.

          I can understand why he, and you, feel that he shouldn’t have had too (this is a competitive sport after all) but it doesn’t justify running another car off the road. Crashing to prove a point (i.e. on purpose) is Flavio Briatore/Piquet Jnr territory!

        7. @Damonsmedley, your attempt at describing events using pictures gets it a bit wrong.

          First of all, after Massa lost traction into that straight, Hamilton started closing in. Hamilton got such a good tow that it made an otherwise, non overtaking zone, possible to overtake.

          Now as Hamilton got alongside Massa, both their front wheels about parallel, you could even hear Brundle or Coulthard comment that he has drawn level, Massa saw Hamilton and decided to lift off his brakes to be marginally ahead. Hamilton was already there haven taken his line at that point. Massa then turned into Hamilton, expecting him to disappear?

        8. You are indeed entitled to your own opinions. You are NOT entitled to your own facts. All you’ve done is cherry picked a few pictures to back up your own opinion as fact.

          The real fact is simply that we do not have all the information: just the tv camera shots. We don’t have the respective car telemetry data for throttle and steering positions plus the GPS tracking data that the FIA has access to. Without those, you can’t draw a proper conclusion from what we see.

          We however can INFER a few things from what we see, such as Massa glancing left and right into his mirrors. That simple piece of video shows quite clearly that he KNEW that Hamilton was close. The view showing him continually looking at his left hand mirror infers that he KNEW he was there … and he turned in anyway.

          It’s hardly conclusive, but i’m with Keith on this one. This was a good call by the stewards. However my opinion is Massa should have been black flagged for that. It was a stupidly dangerous manoeuvre on his part, less than a fortnight after the shocking deaths of two motor racing greats. A sharp penalty should have made the FIA’s position very clear and they fudged that.

        9. At which point did you actually see Lewis’ “Lunge down the inside”? In every replay I have seen he was already alongside going in to the breaking zone and it was Massa making the lunge (hence being in front at the time of collision). A lunge would mean that Lewis would have braked later than Massa, which was clearly not the case.

      4. does know one remeber at one of the street circuits where hamilton turned in on webber??? webber was no were near as alongside as ham on massa but ham got the penalty and like in thiks case rightly so as you just dont turn in on someone

        1. also if massa went it bit slower round the corner could have left ham room and made the corner, we see all the time drivers missing the apex by a cars width and making the corner, if massa cant do this then he should race trains.

        2. Hamilton didn’t turn in on Webber. Webber dived down the inside of Hamilton forcing him wide. Webbers trajectory was taking him straight on.. and it was Singapore

    7. I’m really torn on this one. I still cant decided who’s fault it was (if anyone’s). Was a bit of an all or nothing challenge from Hamilton. Though Massa probably could have given him a little more space.

      Though I will say what possesses Hamilton when he gets near Massa? Massa must have nightmares about Mclaren chasing him in his sleep! It’s like he feels he needs to pass him instantly or something. He’d barely been on him for half a lap, and he try’s a really brave move. In a section of track, where only one car is ever going to make it through.

      I’m not saying it’s his fault. He just needs to drive smarter. If he had of just waited another half of lap he probably would have passed him under DRS with little effort. Though instead he takes a massive risky dive, that once again ends up compromising his race.

      Doesn’t matter how fast you are. If you keep on crashing into everyone you aren’t going to get anywhere…

      1. Though Massa probably could have given him a little more space

        Massa knew Hammy was there, and turned in anyway. He as much as admitted it in post race interviews, and replays show this quite clearly. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was intending to force Hamilton to back off, rather than intending to crash, but he still caused an avoidable collision. He had the option of running a wider line, there was plenty of space.

    8. Well Massa, you’re entitled to your opinion.

      But you would be wrong. You can’t crowd another race car off the track, especially when that car has the inside line to a corner.

      Totally Massa’s fault this time. If anything the punishment was too little. I find it wrong to see someone cause an incident, get a penalty and then still be out well ahead of the other driver who’s been hurt the most by the incident. In the end it doesn’t matter as Massa kissed another one of his favorite curbs but still, I think a penalty should be equal to or greater than the delay the incident has caused to the receiving driver.

      1. As I said earlier, everyone is entitled to an opinion. Everyone is NOT entitled to their own “facts”.

        1. Please elaborate.

          Am I wrong when I say a driver isn’t allowed to crowd another driver off the track?

    9. I want to make a compilation of where all Massa and Hamilton clashed this year. I remember Monaco, Singapore (qualifying and race), Suzuka (minor) and India.

      Where else did they collide?

      1. Monza 2010 ;)

      2. Silverstone.

      3. Japan 2008

        1. I want to make a compilation of where all Massa and Hamilton clashed this year.

    10. Ferrari believe the collision with Hamilton contributed to the suspension failure that put Massa out of the race.

      I see. I suppose Hamilton ran into him in qualifying too?

      1. @George I think that’s Ferrari trying to save their own skin for designing their suspension not strong enough.

    11. Massa might be thinking the World is Flat… we can’t help that.

      There No question. It was Massa’s Fault. He completely turned his head and looked at Lewis car before that move. He should not say he never saw him. Racers are supposed to drive the car and not just stay on racing line. Simply staying in racing line is called as formation lap or procession.

      I cant believe he could not graciously accept the mistake. I agree he was at the receiving end is a couple of races earlier but definitely not this time. I am sure Stephano is not dumb enough to nod to his argument.

      It more and more looks like his 2013 drive is surely a Non-Ferrari one.

    12. I think the penalty was a little unfair because like Brundle said a lap or 2 before, That section is all single file & as we have seen time & time again all weekend if you go into that corner even slightly off the normal line you go off track.
      There is no room for 2 cars through that section & had Massa left Lewis room he’d have ended up off the track like many others did over the weekend at that corner.

      Something which is a worry about the suspension is that I saw others drivers in other cars hit those orange kerbs like massa did & there suepsnion didn’t fail. Kobayashi for instance launched his car over it a few times on Friday without damage.

      Looking on a positive side for Massa, His pace was very good all weekend & before the collision with Lewis he wasn’t really dropping back from Alonso.

      1. That section is all single file…There is no room for 2 cars through that section

        I don’t buy any of this. Any car can pass on any corner at any track if they’re sufficiently alongside. Which Hamilton was here.

        1. >Any car can pass on any corner at any track if they’re sufficiently alongside. Which Hamilton was here.<


          And to give the whole thing a little more context, take another look at the race start, and see how much room Hamilton gave Massa into the first corner.

        2. He wasnt. He hit the rear tire, not the front.

          1. Watch the replay again and note how far Hamilton was alongside before Massa (who knew where he was) decided to turn in anyway.

            This was not a repeat of Monaco. That’s why Massa deserved the penalty.

            1. @KeithCollantine Too much is being made of Massa looking in his mirrors.

              In Belgium and Japan Hamilton swiped straight across another driver, yet claimed he didn’t see them. No penalties were given.

              From now on, and to avoid penalties, should drivers just claim ignorance and not look in their mirrors?

            2. @cduk_mugello

              In this case I don’t think it makes a difference – you could tell from how Massa positioned his car he knew Hamilton was there.

          2. Because he tried to back out of it when he saw Massa was going to take the normal racing line.

        3. BRAVO! There’s nothing else to it and I wish it could end here!

        4. @Keith-Collantine Hamilton was not alongside Massa by any sense of the word. A penalty on Hamilton would have been too harsh, but Hamilton was never alongside Massa. If they had been, Hamilton would have been hit on his front wheel, and would have easily seen Hamilton coming, and my argument would be different.

          Has anyone considered that when Massa was looking towards Hamilton, that he did not see Hamilton and was making sure he could turn into the apex of the corner? Or do we all think Massa is a complete idiot behind the wheel and will stick to his stereotype of crashing into Hamilton?

          He might be controversial, but he’s still got good morals..

          1. @KeeleyObsessed

            Has anyone considered that when Massa was looking towards Hamilton, that he did not see Hamilton

            As I’ve already said several times, from the way Massa moved his car off-line to defend it’s clear he had a good idea where Hamilton’s car was. Yet he chose to turn in anyway.

            This was not an act of ‘idiocy’ but cynicism. An attempt to intimidate Hamilton out of a legitimate passing move.

            Hamilton, to his credit, did what he could to avoid contact but Massa’s driving had made it inevitable. That’s why Massa got a penalty.

      2. If that’s the case, Monaco is single file. The WHOLE track is more narrow than that.

        We’ve seen overtaking there, so we can at that section in India too.

        My view is that it’s simply a racing incident, nothing more.

    13. Trenthamfolk (@)
      30th October 2011, 14:50

      “Massa disagrees with penalty for Hamilton collision”

      Of ‘course’ he does. The guy is starting to get very, very irritating. My reasons for thinking this are thus:

      1) Today, he looked in his mirrors four times, then deliberately turned in.
      2) He expects everyone else to yield for him, but refuses to yield for anyone else.
      3) He claims the moral high ground, even after his disgraceful and needlessly provocative display in the paddock at Singapore
      4) He has been openly instructed to ‘destroy Hamilton’s races’ and keeps on having questionable incidents… surprise surprise.
      5) He has no problem with blatantly cheating when his team instructs him to do so. Fernado is faster than you…
      6) He demands the stewards get tough, but whines like a child when they penalize him for causing avoidable incidents.
      7) He gives (the mouth) it all the time, but clearly can’t take it!

      Shut up Massa, and get back to scrubbing Alonso’s motor home…

      1. Jelle van der Meer (@)
        30th October 2011, 15:28

        Could not agree more – thank you

    14. Felipe did everything right. Lewis didnt try in the least try and back out. he would not of made the pass. how can u penalise a driver for staying on the racing line? Felipe should of went wide to let Lewis pass…??? they are racing. if Lewis had gotten past, the angle to the racing line he would of had to take would of made it awkward for both cars on the exit because Lewis would of been too slow…WRONG stewards!

      1. There was enough room in my opinion for both to get through without having to go single file. For that to happen Lewis would have had to back off a little and Felipe would’ve had to widen his racing line a tad, though that would have put Lewis on the inside for turns 6/7 which can’t be taken side-by-side, which is what I think Massa was trying to avoid.

        1. That’s pretty well said; both might have been able to do a bit more to avoid it, but Massa was the one who turned in knowing that HAM was there; HAM says he was already breaking hard at that point, but he could only go off track to avoid it when Massa steered in; hence, Massa was most to blame here. The type of reasoning Massa uses here didn’t convince in the case of Spa with HAM vs. KOB, where it was concluded that HAM should have steered clear of KOB, and it has a similar problem here.

          Those two really need to put it past them, and from reactions afterwards, Massa is the one who seems to be more frustrated with it (and I doubt it is just bc. of him being the injured party for most of the incidents), hence he has the most reason to get over it.

      2. Trenthamfolk (@)
        30th October 2011, 15:01

        @scuderia_fan85 No. Massa was in the wrong and received the penalty accordingly.

        Whilst they have done in the past, Ferrari can no longer make up the rules of F1 as they go along. Move on.

        1. same thing last year Singapore GP between Webber and Lewis; Lewis had the racing line and almost half way past Webber, they collided. same exact thing in the race…WRONG stewards! u cant penalise a driver on the correct line, the racing line. Lewis shouldnt of been trying to undertake Felipe there..poor judgement on Lewis’ part

          1. You have a poor understanding of overtaking.

          2. Well, you just perfectly explained why Webber didn’t get a penalty in Singapore last year by comparing that incident to Massa and Hamilton today.

      3. @scuderia_fan85 Lewis didn’t appear to try and back out because there was nowhere to go; Massa left him absolute no room (his car is aiming for the apex before the collision). Maybe Lewis could have slammed his brakes and lost all momentum but that goes against a driver’s millisecond instinct.

        1. i thought it was actually not to damage a multi-million dollar car and safety reasons and to stay in the race…

          1. Trenthamfolk (@)
            30th October 2011, 16:32

            @scuderia_fan85 That is exactly why Massa should have yielded.

            And who was it who destroyed their car TWICE this weekend?

      4. Sorry, I didn’t realise you are obviously more informed than all the stewards and many of the fans on this site, including Keith who runs f1fanatic. And as Ferrari said that Massa’s suspension damage was in fact caused by Hamilton and not Massa running over the kerbs too violently, i’m sure that you will therefore have evidence of that too. Because obviously Hamilton had run into Massa during practise too. Please inform us – are you, infact, a world class racing driver who has so much experience you are suitably qualified to overrule the stewards or, as your name suggests, a ferrari fan who has no idea who is in the right or wrong, just wants to support ferrari?

        On another note, at least Hamilton owns up when he is in the wrong. Does your precious ferrari ever do this? No. While I support Hamilton, I can at least admit when he is in the wrong, like he can. When Massa broke his suspension for the first time, it was the Kerb’s fault. None of the other 23 drivers had a problem with it.
        After the collision, the stewards penalised Massa. Many of the fans agree with this. Massa, on the other hand, blames hamilton.
        Massa runs over the kerbs AGAIN, and breaks his suspension for the second time. Not only is this apparently not Massa’s fault, but aparantly it’s not even the Kerb this time, it’s now Hamilton.

        So, if we are to listen purely to Ferrari, Massa can do no wrong. This is clearly not the case. Ferrari have a history of backing one driver, and Massa must only be staying with ferrari because no other team will have him. I seriously cannot believe this guy is still in formula one. Get out now and make room for a decent driver!

        1. Lewis didnt try in the least try and back out.

          Actually, I think you’ll find he did. From being nearly alongside Massa at one point, Hamilton backed out enough to touch the rear of Massa’s car. But obviously, i’m sure you deny this.

          how can u penalise a driver for staying on the racing line?

          Simply because racing is not as black and white as that. Take, for example, Massa and Hamilton coming together at singapore this year. Hamilton was on the racing line. Now i’m sure you, without taking a look at the evidence, will believe Hamilton was in the wrong, because in your eyes Massa can do no wrong. In this case, Hamilton was at fault, because he was ran into Massa. Not all incidents are as black and white as “the guy behind was at fault”.

      5. I think the clue is in his username ———> @scuderia_fan85

      6. You are aware that hamiltons pass attempt was normal racing practice ie. to get alongside enough going into the corner so as to force the opposing driver to take a wide line and hence compromise their line?

        Lewis’s move was textbook racing, massa did the same on the first corner to lewis but lewis took the wide line instead of taking the racing line! I assume you think Lewis should have turned in and hit Massa on that first corner as massa should have backed off?

        1. Exactly.
          Most people don’t wan to admit to the prejudice.
          I keep saying it. Hamilton is hated more because he is black than because he is successful.
          He is in a predominantly white only sport, he immediately stands out. Every single action is scrutinized to find flaws. Every single blemish is over amplified.
          Even lots of British folks are ready to ditch him, as they had another more traditional world champion.
          He is fighting a losing battle unfortunately.

          1. I think you diminish the seriousness of the wider problem of racism by making a knee-jerk assumption that it has a significant role in how people view Lewis Hamilton.

            The only person here making a distinction on grounds of race is you.

            And I think it’s downright cowardly not to specify who you are aiming these very serious charges at.

            1. @Keith Collantine Hey Keith, i think you want to calm down a bit on @Oliver. i know some of us get a bit carried away sometimes in the defence of our fav driver. Also this is perhaps not the best forum to trash the issue of possible racism against Lewis and I understand that but look a lot of us believe racism plays a huge role in how Hamilton is viewed and treated. Now, that is not what can be easily proven but trust me, it is there. Even the man Hamilton himself believe there is racism in how he is treated otherwise he would never have made that ALi G analogy. He may have apologized for it out of pressure to be PC by the team but the dude himself feels his race is affecting the outcome of his racing. hehe

            2. I would not take Hamilton quoting a joke by Ali G which he later apologised for as anything other than him blowing off steam after a frustrating race.

              I say again, if you’re going to make an accusation about something as serious as racism you should say who has done it and what they have done. Neither of you have done either of these things.

              Racism is a serious matter and you and Oliver should not treat it so lightly.

            3. @Keith, i think its a bit naive of you to ask for physical evidence of racism against Hamilton to be presented in your blog in relation to the fact that some people feel some of Hamilton’s treatment is race related. I’ve been reading yours and other F1 blogs for ages and I know alot of people feel that way.

              I can’t imagine you expect anyone to tell you who has painted his face black within F1 circles or the media (ala some Spanish fans) a few years ago before you comprehend what some people are driving at. Do you really think in the corporate world that is how racial prejudices are expressed?

              A few days ago, I made a detailed post in which I drew an analogy between how racism does not have to be overt. In other words racism is not only when I walked up to your face and shout racist abuse at you (like JT is currently being accused of) but racism could also occur “through action or inaction” of people in any organisation with the objective of achieving a desired or particular result. I also mentioned the type of racism that was highlighted by Sir Williams MAcPherson after the Stephen Lawrence murder in London some years ago. It is called “institutional racism”. Funny enough, I did not seems to have seen that particular post I made and i’m assuming you censored it which I didnt complain about because I felt it was prolly best to leave that subject outta here but you asked me a direct question and I think its only right to elaborate on it.

              So please dont ask for physical evidence of racism because while you might get that from any tom dick or harry on the street corner or in a stadium, that unfortunately is not how racism plays out in the corporate world. At least even you will not disagree that racism doesnt exist in the corporate world but how often do you see it? Virtually never.

              Side note: I disagree with you that the Ali G analogy is not relevant. Just because Hamilton apologized for it does not take away the message intended to be conveyed.

              You can disagree with me but please don’t censor this.

            4. As I’ve already said, genuine racism is something that should be taken very seriously.

              There is nothing in your increasingly verbose comments that suggests that is actually the case here.

              All you are doing is playing the race card in a feeble attempt to make excuses for a driver who has got himself into trouble several times this year. I think that’s very cynical, and an insult to people who have genuinely been victims of racism.

            5. @Keith Collantine, is it the verbose element of my post that is causing you problems or the fact that i’ve made a perfectly valid point that racism doesn’t have to be overt especially in the corporate world? which part of that are you struggling with that you are calling me cynical and pulling a race card?

              no one is saying all Hamilton’s problems are only because of his race but people including myself have wondered aloud a few times which we are perfectly entitled to. i think you are feeling a bit too self-righteous here and its not called for.

    15. maybe Rob Smedley told Massa to “destroy Hamilton’s race”, hehe!

      1. Trenthamfolk (@)
        30th October 2011, 15:23


        “Hamilton is faster than you, can you confirm that you understood that message?”

    16. Brundle and Coulthard with all their experience keep getting things wrong and misleading viewers who are watching live, and giving them the wrong views of incidents.
      They are now commentators and need experts to interprete the race action. They are sounding more like dumb and dumber every passing day for trying to be both race stewards and “impatial” analysts.
      Even watching live you can see Massa see Hamilton along side, then Massa lifted from braking to inch ahead then turn into Hamilton.
      No way Hamilton can be wrong about that one becuase Massa new he was there and cut across him.
      And it also shows why, apart from Japan and maybe Singapore, Massa is actually the one provoking the accidents like in Monaco where he did something similar but Hamilton got the penalty.

      1. I found it funny Brundle was quick to put Massa’s DNF down to Hamilton, before seeing the video of Massa smashing it on the kerb.

      2. Luckily, though, everyone watching is an expert with eidetic memory and F1 driver reaction times, and can therefore see past their ineptitudes.

        I’d 1,000,000 times rather Brundle + Coulthard than Legard + Brundle.

    17. I don’t know what to think about the incident.
      It is clear that Massa turned into Hamilton, but it was a very fast piece of track with a lot of dirt off line, where would Massa have ended up had he not tried to make the corner? I have some suspicion that he would have made a nosedive into the gravel trap.
      As Brundle rightly said, that piece of track is one at a time.
      I think it is quite clear from the look and speed of that corner, coupled with the line to the next corner that, that gap was ALWAYS going to disappear and I don’t think Hamilton was far enough alongside to claim the line into that corner.
      That said, it was Massa who turned into him in the end, and it did seem like Massa did know where Hamilton was as he had quite a few looks in his mirror before he turned in, but of cause you can look as much as you like into the mirror, but if the car is in the blind-spot you are never going to see it.
      I think this incident was a racing incident, as I would blame Massa for the collision, and Hamilton for making an overtake where both weren’t going to get through without contact so they both pretty much had it coming.

      1. Yup. For anyone to claim the line during an overtake, they need to have their nose ahead. Lewis’s was almost completely behind by the time Massa turned in.

        1. lol where did you get that idea?

          Yes Hamilton should have known by now that Massa would not yeald and not to take that risk. But that doesn’t mean what Massa did was ok. F1 is a non contact sport, you can’t crash into someone just because their car was in the way of your racing line. Normanly this would be just a racing incident without a penalty, but Massa just keeps doing the same thing and thinks he is right (the monaco stewards didn’t help here), he needed to be shown that it is not aceptable in F1.

    18. SennaNmbr1 (@)
      30th October 2011, 15:06

      I wish Felipe would come to terms with the fact that Hamilton beat him to the 2008 world championship.

    19. Now, I’ve been completely sick of everyone saying Hamilton is faultless and makes no mistakes, after watching this incident a few times and talking with others, I reckon if it was anyone’s ‘fault’, it was Hamilton’s..

      Brundle had repeatedly gone on and on about how that section is a ‘one at a time’ section, much like the middle part of the lap in Korea (where Webber couldn’t overtake Hamilton, despite some extraordinary efforts). Massa did leave a gap big enough for Hamilton to get inside, but Hamilton should have understood that Massa would HAVE to turn in on him.

      In Hamilton’s defence, he shouldn’t have got a drive-thru as he had to pit for a new front wing, losing time then. I think Massa was a bit unlucky for his penalty though, I can’t see what more could’ve been done to avoid a collision, Massa isn’t just gonna let someone through (unless it’s Alonso, but that’s a different argument :P )

      As a footnote to everyone. I am British, and I happen to dislike Massa. However, I believe that racing drivers can make mistakes (unlike some Hamilton fans) and those mistakes should be punished if (and when) appropriate..

      1. @KeeleyObsessed

        I’ve been completely sick of everyone saying Hamilton is faultless and makes no mistakes

        I’ve been completely sick of the opposite.

        1. “Brundle had repeatedly gone on and on about how that section is a ‘one at a time’ section”

          Brundle speaks absolute trash now n again.

          People always said Eu Rouge was a single-file section of bends. Webber and Alonso proved you can literally race side by side through the toughest/scariest turns on the entire calander.

          1. Your example is poor as both drivers were alongside going thru eu rouge. In this case Hamilton was barely halfway alongside and hit Massa’s rear wheel.

            1. No, its because Alonso is a much better driver than Massa. Had Webber gone into eu rouge with Massa instead, there would have been a huge “aeroplane” crash.

          2. @N Yes, a 2011 Red Bull (with all it’s extra downforce) against a Ferrari going through Eau Rouge instantly proves that Eau Rouge is NOT a single line corner, and that everyone can overtake.

            A brilliant overtake, but it was done by Webber relying on the grip of his RB7. Plus, at least Webber got alongside Alonso, if Hamilton had got alongside Massa, then it might have been a different story..

        2. @Broxter I’m presuming you mean you’re sick of Hamilton making mistakes, so am I. He’s a brilliant driver, but he hasn’t shown it this year and as a result I’m starting to respect Button a LOT more…

      2. Brundle said that he assumed Hamilton would get a penalty, simply because it’s Hamilton. I found it rather telling that he would say that.

      3. this is about THIS INCIDENT this is the most clear cut out of the lot by a mile, bottom line you defend the inside as its almost impossible to defend the outside but if you try you cut back on the exit to get a better drive not take the inside line through a car!!!! defend the inside on the way into the corner or its tough luck that a car is suddenly there.

      4. I got pretty much stuffed up about the way Brundle talked about the incident as having been in a place where its impossible to pass.

        He said that of the place where Kobayashi pulled off multiple overtakes in Suzuka last year. It was exactly the fact that its a place were its harder, and drivers less expect it, that make for great passes.

    20. I’m with the commentators on this one. The corner only has one line, and Massa was in it. Had he jumped out of the way, he would not have made the corner (lewis would have been penalised for pushing another car off the track in the progress)

      Lewis was not along side him either, he was behind him. If he were along side, he would have hit Massa’s front wheel, not rear wheel.

      It seemed to me, as though Lewis dedicated himself to a corner where you cant overtake, in the hopes that Massa would have crashed out in the process.

      1. Trenthamfolk (@)
        30th October 2011, 15:19

        I suppose that’s why Hamilton got the penalty, right?

      2. what do you mean by one-line? every section of the circuit is one-line. Massa should close his left side not to allow Hamilton dived in. But in this case, Hamilton got a big momentum speed difference to dive in where the space is open.

        Massa has to yield to nurse his car home, probably in better position though I doubt that.

    21. I thought it was a racing incident and that Massa probably wouldn’t have received a penalty if Hamilton’s car hadn’t been damaged.

      This was my view of their coming together during the Singapore Grand Prix, that if Massa hadn’t suffered a puncture and so his race wasn’t damaged so much Hamilton probably wouldn’t have received a drive through.

      The collision also reminded me of the one at the Japanese Grand Prix except it was Hamilton trying to overtake and he tried to do it down the inside which is the normal way instead down the outside into a chicane which Massa tried in Japan and was never going to work, yet Massa blamed Hamilton in both cases.

      I would have been more likely to believe Ferrari’s claim the collision contributed to Massa’s suspension failure if Massa hadn’t done the same thing but to the other side of his car in qualifying, I thought he would have learned from that to avoid the orange kerbs but it seems not.

    22. Trenthamfolk (@)
      30th October 2011, 15:33

      @infy How many championships has Massa won? Let me see… Hmmm… Just trying to count them all up… How many podiums or poles has Massa had this season… Ouch, I’m struggling here…

      Here’s one for you… How many cars did Massa destroy by himself this weekend? Ferrari FAIL.

      1. +1 Shocking weekend by Massa.

        Now that Mclaren have secured 2nd place, If I was in charge I’d start giving Bianchi some time in Massa’s car, at least for free practice 1.

    23. I don’t agree with the penalty either. Just because Massa knew Hamilton was there doesn’t automatically mean he should jump out of the way, especially when he was half a car length ahead. It’s such a fast corner and in no way a passing place unless completely alongside, especially with the amount of dust off line.

      Maybe Massa could have given a bit more room, but you don’t expect a driver to be there when he doesn’t have the corner. I think the incident was possibly worthy of a reprimand for both drivers, but to give just Massa a penalty suggests that he was entirely at fault – which he wasn’t.

      Either way, I think these two need to be forced to sit in a room together and not come out until they’ve fleshed out their issues and made up. I can’t remember two drivers coming together so often in such a short space of time. Webber and Alonso often find themselves together on track, yet manage to fight tough but fair with each other. It’s all about respect, and Lewis and Felipe don’t seem to have any for each other at the moment. At this rate it’s only a matter of time before these two connect in a really bad way, and no-one wants to see that.

      1. Agree completely. Fantastic comment @Dan-Thorn!

        to give just Massa a penalty suggests that he was entirely at fault – which he wasn’t.

        Could not agree more.

        I also think Hamilton wasn’t fully committed to the move. He was very half-hearted about it and didn’t brake late enough to let Felipe know he was going to go through with it.

      2. @dan-thorn

        to give just Massa a penalty suggests that he was entirely at fault – which he wasn’t.

        Yes he was. He knew Hamilton had a run on him, he knew where the McLaren was, and he chose to turn in anyway.

        It was cynical and he deserved a penalty.

        1. But Lewis put his car in a wedge that was always going to disappear, especially as he was in a blind spot and couldn’t be entirely sure Massa had seem him. Unless there’s an interview I’ve not seen yet, I don’t know if you can say for certain that Massa knew where Hamilton was – the number of times he checked his mirror would suggest to me that he didn’t.

          Ambitious moves in unusual places, especially at fast corners, require full commitment from the attacking driver. Lewis was half hearted in his attempt. It also requires the cooperation of both drivers. In this case neither driver was willing to give and if you ask me, it was a racing incident for whom both are to blame.

          1. @dan-thorn

            Lewis put his car in a wedge that was always going to disappear,

            But that’s always a case when someone tries to pass down the inside of another car – what makes the difference is whether the other driver realises there’s a car on the inside.

            In this case Massa obviously knew Hamilton was there because he began moving his car to the inside of the corner, then stopped and moved back towards the racing line as Hamilton drew alongside him.

            1. Plus, he didn’t even put it in a wedge, he put it in a block almost entirely alongside Massa, before Massa’s futile attempt to take the corner as if there was no-one there and Hamilton’s attempt to take avoiding action reduced it to a wedge. Before braking Hamilton had the inside line. Whatever happens in the braking zone he cannot erase himself, and why would he want to? Having his car in that position means the other driver has to run wide- not to avoid a collision, that should be obvious anyway, but because by losing the inside line they have forfeited their right to the apex. Either they try and hang on around the outside or they drop behind the overtaker.

              I am frankly amazed that so many people here can’t see that, and I seriously wonder how they expect any overtakes to happen from anything other than slipstreaming long before a corner.

      3. It was a rubbish move by Ham but he still had the right to make it. I still think it was a racing incident though and a penalty was harsh. I don’t know if Massa did see him as I’ve only checked this website and the article doesn’t say that he did though so I go with innocent until proven/or admitted guilty.

        1. @Steph, for all intents and purposes, unlike during the Mosley era with some very odd penalties, for the last two years the stewards appear to try to always reach a conclusion based on on track events, using their data and camera views.

          We might not always agree with the outcome, but we have to assume it is their best effort to “prove” guilt before giving a penalty for a racing incident.

          If they published their deliberations and fully motivated decision, we might be able to better judge that, but by and large I think we should accept that they do the best job they can, so that means we have to consider Massa guilty.

          Even Hamilton in the end accepted that he had to take blame for Monaco and other incidents; Massa got a penalty from the stewards, so they clearly thought there was sufficient reason, and Massa and fans need to accept that, take it in, and move on.

          Even if he sees it different, he needs to understand that, and why, the stewards thought he was wrong here, and do something different next time – preferably something not leading to a collision and allowing him to continue his race.

      4. Do you not remember the overtake Hamilton made on Button at Silverstone? Button saw Hamilton coming and had to move off the racing line, not because it was his team mate but because he didn’t want to crash his car. So Everyone at the time said what a great overtake it was and how vigilant Button was to see the move coming in an unsual place. Had it been Massa in Button’s place ther would have been a crash, now would Hamiltons great overtake suddenly become a mistake and a penalty for Hamilton?

        1. Pretty much like Hamilton’s “amazing overtake” on Schumacher in Sainte Devote which turned into a drive-through penalty when he made exactly the same move on Maldonado a few laps later.

      5. massa was not expected to jump out of the way, just to not jump in the way lol

    24. Jelle van der Meer (@)
      30th October 2011, 15:40

      Finally Massa get penalized for cutting other drivers off – this is not the first time he has shut the door on overtaking drivers and afterwards whined and complaint acting as the victim.

      In Monza he shut the door on Webber – so far this year the only driver he gave space to was Massa.

      On Saturday everyone praised the orange curbs for raising the skill needed to race the track – only 1 driver hit them and complaint about it. Moreover in the race he hit several again resulting in a DNF yet again – Ferrari blaming the collission with Hamilton is nonsense as footage clearly showed Massa hitting them multiple times. In Dutch there is a saying “een ezel stoot zich geen tweemaal aan dezelfde steen” translated is says “A donkeyl does not hit the same stone twice” – think that is very applicable to Massa.

      For the rest Massa has not contributed anything to this F1 season – not a single brilliant overtake or qualifying, all I have seen from him is boring races, mistakes, misconduct and clearly being unworthy of the Ferrari he drives.

      Think it is time for Massa to leave F1 as it is very unlikely that he has any future value in terms of a racer or personality in F1.

      I hate Alonso for his character/whining but atleast I respect him as one of the very best drivers in F1. Massa very quickly becomes the next has been like Jacques Villeneuve only difference is that Villeneuve atleast achieved something.

      1. Trenthamfolk (@)
        30th October 2011, 16:19

        @Jelle van der Meer

        That was Brilliant, thank you! :-)

      2. Very harsh. Especially considering what he’s been through. He is getting better, and I’d rather see him passionate about his racing than submissive.

        1. F1 is a very harsh place.

          Come on Ferrari, give Bianchi a try now that 2nd place in the constructor’s is gone

        2. @damonsmedley Massa has been truly awful this year (and you know it Smedley). Passionate doesn’t equal just turning into other drivers. I’ll be glad to see the back of Massa – you’ll have to find some other mediocre driver to support after that!!!

          1. @davidwhite I suppose I could support Lewis… ;)

      3. @Jelle van der Meer It seems harsh on Massa, but, ultimately, utterly correct.

    25. This was in my view a racing incident. That said, how dumb is Hamilton to keep sticking his nose into decreasing wedges of space? This is something he has being doing all year and paying a heavy price.

      The stewards got this one badly wrong, the only reasonable decision was racing incident. Massa was not trying to defend but take his normal line into a sweeping fast corner. Those saying he saw Hamilton in his mirror are either clairvoyant or have access to a secret MassaCam. He may been looking in his mirror but may not have been able to see him regardless.

      The fact remains that is not a clear overtaking spot unless you manage to get FULLY alongside, or ahead of the car you are going to overtake. Hamilton tapped Massa’s rear wheel, how that can be construed as Massa’s fault is beyond me.

      After all that, please Ferrari drop Massa and offer Kimi a drive again? Please?

    26. Pity the stewards couldn’t have given a more detailed explanation, as they have done on some other occasions this year, including in Japan. The verdict only says:

      “Fact: Causing a collision with Car No.3 Lewis Hamilton at Turn 5
      Offence: Involved in an incident as defined by Article 16.1 of the 2011 FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations”

      1. That is really another really big chance missed. And it might help Massa understand as well, its not “just for the media and fans” to talk about.

        How can a judgement ever be fair, without prejudice and consistent when they are not published including full reasoning and stating the facts taken into consideration.

        I am sure, that in a real court anyone would protest such a desicion by a judge if it was only with such little detail.

      2. Trenthamfolk (@)
        30th October 2011, 16:02

        @Keith Collntine Do you think that more is to come, given the fallout, and the involvement of Ferrari? I hope so. it’s be good to put at least some of the debate to rest :-)

      3. Interesting to note that at the end of 16.1 it states;
        “Unless in the opinion of the race director it was completely clear that a driver was in breach of any of the above, any incidents involving more than one car will normally be investigated after the race.”

        Therefore they Stewards thought it was so clear that Massa was in the wrong, that they gave an immediate penalty.

    27. In my opinion Hamilton should have given up. Massa is ahead and can decide the line. I agree in this case Massa missed to leave enough space to Lewis, and he was stupid there, because knowing Lewis he probably should have imagined that he would have tried. But if I should say who caused the collision it is Ham. That is a fast corner, it is hard to overtake there.
      Keith, I understand he was “alongside”, but he wasnt’ enough ahead, he was at half the Ferrari.
      Said that I would not have given a penalty to anybody, like always. But I don’t believe the rupture ot the sospension of Massa was initiated by the clash with Hamilton (c’mon!). Massa made there the same exact mistake he made during quali. Incredible!
      Then we could speak all the night long about the orange kerb, but…not the time.

      1. “If you see a gap and you no longer go for it, you are no longer a racing driver”

        1. Sure, because Senna said that, it must fact. But really, if you go for the tightest of gaps and crash, you’re a fool if anything.

          1. Not if the other driver sees you in that tight gap and decides to drive into your car. Then you are the victim.

          2. I didn’t say it was fact because Senna said it.

            I’m saying that that racing drivers should race and as soon as drivers like Hamilton start “giving up” in such circumstances the more boring races are going to become. If Massa had put it up the inside of Hamilton and Hamilton had turned in on him, I’d feel exactly the same.

            In my opinion no penalty for either driver was applicable.

            It was racing and long may it continue even in the DRS days in which we live.

    28. Brundle and Coulthard’s anti-Hamilton biases are beyond a joke now. Hamilton’s attempted pass was no different from Vettel’s pass on him in Korea. Hamilton was partially ahead there but as Vettel already had the preferred inside line and he chose to do his duty as a driver and not drive into him.

      1. They have become like that due to the previous stewards decisions always favouring the car ahead cutting up the driver behind. Hopefully they will look at this and change their view.

        Johnny Herbert for driver of the race! ;)

      2. @judo-chop Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn’t mean that they’re being bias. Hell, Coulthard supported Hamilton when he had his accident with Kobayashi in Spa, are you going to tell me now that Brundle and Coulthard are bias?

        1. Actually Coulthard has more sense than both Brundle and Humphrie’s but as Brundle’s sidekick he feels the need to play along as they keep the “Hamilton Controversy” bandwagon going. This bandwagon fuels the F1 media. Pompous pundits pretending to be authorative as they pontificate when in fact they’re just following the herd. Schumacher’s had just as many prangs as Hamilton this year but his “issues” don’t warrant their own bulletin. How pathetic is grown men gossiping about Hamilton’s love life? Compare these clowns to Murray Walker who was embarrassed whenever his pro-Mansell sympathies became apparent.

      3. @judo chop
        You can’t compare the two overtakes.
        When Vettel made the move on Hamilton, it was possible because it was into a slow corner where overtaking is actually possible.
        Hamilton tried the inside line from behind, into a super quick and pretty tight 5th gear corner.

        1. This is what matt90 wrote earlier regarding drivers being overtaken:

          “by losing the inside line they have forfeited their right to the apex. Either they try and hang on around the outside or they drop behind the overtaker”

          Massa, as Hamilton in Korea, has no right to any supposed “racing line”. If he wanted to be on his preferred racing line he shouldn’t have left it for Hamilton to drive on it. The speed of the upcoming corner is irrelevent (as it was in Monaco when Schumacher did Hamilton at the Loewes hairpin).

          1. The speed of the corner does matter. In slow corners there are usually several lines.
            In quite a lot of the high speed corners they either take the racing line, or drive straight off the road.
            If you look at the two overtakes the only similarity is that one driver go up the inside of the other. Like 99% of all other overtakes.

    29. Massa has been doing this ALL year, he thinks if he has the racing line and someone is beside him he can just turn in and they should back off.
      Hamilton could have easily done this during the start on the first corner but he gave Massa loads of room.
      Well done stewards for finally seeing what others should have seen in the past.

    30. For me the penalty was harsh, it was a racing incident but that’s just the way it is at the moment I guess.

      But for Massa to deny he did anything wrong is pathetic. Primary school stuff.

      In addition, for Ferrari to say the contact damaged the suspension is ridiculous, were they not there for free practice when the same suspension broke in the same way after not being rammed by a McLaren?

      Really, childish behaviour all round here.

    31. if what massa did is allowed then we will no longer have motor racing , we will have motor processioning

      I believe that if a driver allows another car to get it’s front wheels alongside his rear wheels he must give him room IF HE IS COMING UP THE INSIDE ; I believe that there is a big difference IF THE OVERTAKE IS ON THE OUTSIDE

      this is why I think that hamilton has been unfairly treated several times this season ; think back to Monaco for example

      MSC dives past hamilton at the hairpin ….hamilton gives him room as he should , no accident …I don’t think they even touched
      hamilton tries to do the same thing to massa …massa won’t give him room , then tries to push him into the barrier and they collide ..of course he then blames hamilton for the fact that he crashes trying to overtake him on the marbles , but that is another matter

      hamilton goes for an overtake on MSC at St Devote , MSC gives him enough room , no collision ; hamilton does the same thing to maldonardo [ in a slower car to MSC ] who promptly turns in to him and puts himself out
      Is there anyone here who thinks MSC doesn’t race hard ?

      it’s quite simple in my view , if you don’t want to have to give room to a driver coming up the inside , don’t let him get there

      on the other hand if someone is trying to get around the outside the driver in front is entitled to take the normal racing line …up to the overtaker to avoid an accident

      so , to summarise ,why not a simple rule ; if you get your front wheels up with the rear wheels of the car in front he must give you room on the inside ..if you try around the outside you must expect the car in front to take the normal line , no going wide to block though once the overtaking car is alongside

      1. I did think the Maldonado incident in Monaco seemed harsh, but then the views we saw weren’t very comprehensive, so I assumed the stewards found that Hamilton wasn’t going to make the corner rather than Maldonado running into him.

        1. If what Maldonado did in Monaco was done in India instead, Maldonado would be getting a penalty for sure, especialy how he cut the curb tighter than normal to block Hamilton off. I don’t know what the stewards at monaco were doing that weekend.

        2. My thoughts on Monaco were similar to your own. I also think that in Monaco, the earlier collision with Massa influenced the decision with Maldonado, and maybe that’s the way it should be: being in a collision is often both drivers fault to some extent, if you do it twice, maybe you should be more careful on track.

          That’s the way it seems to have worked out for HAM during the rest of this season certainly in the view of most stewards, I think.

          And maybe here it also caught up with Massa, even if he didn’t carry much blame for most of those earlier collisions. I think there is something in that too.

      2. this is a brilliant comment :)

      3. +1, COTD.

      4. I can’t agree. Inside or outside, I think that if you know a car is there and avoiding them is possible, you have caused an avoidable accident.

        I think that there are times when both drivers should be punished. If neither car took any avoiding action, both knowing the other car was there and both having a reasonable knowledge that an accident was about to occur (as could probably be said of this incident, except Hamilton did appear to take avoiding action when he knew Massa was going to cut him up), then both should face a penalty. In many situations it is deamed as one driver’s fault or a racing incident, where many are actually both drivers’ fault and both should be punished.

    32. Feuds are entertaining when the drivers concerned are at the front, battling for race wins. This, by contrast, must be the most embarrassing feud in F1 history. It’s two frustrated, embittered drivers, each vying to show that he is more immature and irresponsible than the other.

      1. On the contrary
        30th October 2011, 16:43

        +1 both of them are sailing in same boat, falling lower in their teams pecking order, brilliant performances are things of past and they seem to be squabbling on stupid matters.

        Both are spending too much time with each other and that is affecting other aspects of their lives :D

    33. On the contrary
      30th October 2011, 16:40

      Hate to say this but its time Massa Sr. & Hamilton Sr. have to bring their toddlers together in the sandbox and ask them to “play nice”.

      Too much bad blood between the two kids results in mere racing incidents getting blown out of proportion….

      1. I say leave them to it. This is a sport after all.

    34. Obviously Massa collided intentionally.
      It is called revenge. Clearly as that.
      Eye for an eye.
      I like Felipe but Ferrari should fire him at the end of season.

      1. On the contrary
        30th October 2011, 16:44

        Similarly I like Lewis, but McLaren needs to ground him as well. Anthony Hamilton has a better driver to offer at the moment.

    35. Yet again, the stewards turn out to be reasonable and make the right decisions.

    36. It was Massa’s fault. If he did see Hamilton then he should have had a penalty but I like to think it was an innocent mistake and a racing incident like Suzuka and so the penalty was harsh in my mind.

      1. I also don’t think Massa intended to hit HAM, although I do think he was overestimating his changes, as DC likes to say, they all tend to do that at times. I also didn’t really need a penalty, although I think here it was probably consistent with earlier penalties this year where drivers were already harmed by the a collision.

      2. @Steph I’m sorry, but he looked over at Lewis 4 times. It certainly wasn’t innocent, at best it was mind bogglingly incompetent and stupid. In Japan, where he came up behind Lewis and parked his car behind, he screamed blue murder about dangerous driving. How does he explain his own actions here? I made the point a few articles ago that Massa has in the past turned in on people and then blamed them for hitting him. This is way over the line, when Schumacher walled Rubens last year, he apologised. If the master can do it, the stable boy can.

    37. I don’t know in what world Massa turning into the side of Hamilton’s car constitutes Hamilton hitting Massa. Hamilton has often been at fault in the past, but I’m getting bored by Massa’s whining in general- this weekend he broke his suspension twice and blamed the curbs that nobody else fell foul of, then crashed into Hamilton and blamed him. I’m glad he got a penalty then retirement to be honest- not very sportsmanly I know, but he is fast going from one of the drivers I care least about to one I actively dislike.

    38. Yes, Massa closed the door on Hamilton, but was his closing the door unreasonable? I doubt it.

      1) How often have we seen two cars going through turns 5-6-7? Not that I can recall. So, why would Massa think that Hamilton can just dive in with his nose as if it is a ‘traditional’ passing zone?

      2) How many reasonable racing lines are there through turns 5-6-7? I have only seen one. So again, why would Massa assume to take on the marbles to give Hamilton space because he puts his nose on the inside?

      3) History between Massa and Hamilton: they have had many collisions between them this year and accept for Japan, Hamilton came from behind and touched Massa’s rear (yes on Silverstone Massa was the person passing Hamilton, but he was already past and gave room to Hamilton). So why was Hamilton thinking that this time it is going to be different? This time Massa will give him all the space he needs in a corner where no passing for position has occurred?

      Comparing Webber’s pass on Alonso in Eau Rouge is different. Alonso was coming out of the pitt, whereas Webber was already racing. Webbers tyres were up to racing temp and he was up to racing rhythm. Alonso wasn’t. Also, both drivers are careful to nurse their cars home. Something neither Hamilton nor Massa are known for.

      I think this incident was a racing incident between two drivers that clearly have beef with each other (despite their own words). Massa has decided that he is going to make Hamilton’s life as difficult as possible and Hamilton still thinks that he has unique right when comes done to how much space other drivers should (or must?) give him. This can only result in more collisions in the future. With two races left, they can add two to their contact-tally.

      Why I think a penalty was given to Massa? Well, Hamilton got a lot of comments for his overly aggressive driving this season, but he is a poster driver for F1. He makes sure that people keep talking about a race. Why would someone think that in the collisions between the two it would always be Hamilton’s fault. Not and to make this point let’s give Massa a penalty this time. Politics as usual. It is F1 after all.

      1. 1) How often have we seen two cars going through turns 5-6-7? Not that I can recall. So, why would Massa think that Hamilton can just dive in with his nose as if it is a ‘traditional’ passing zone?

        This was the first Grand Prix at the circuit so I think it is to early to be saying where it is possible for two cars to go through together or where it is possible to overtake.

        I am sure many thought racing side by side through Eau Rouge was impossible before Webber and Alonso did it this year.

        1. on point 2 you could say this about any corner but for someone to overtake they need to take a diff line unless they drive through someone, at a slightly reduced speed they could have gone round side by side but massa hit ham on purpose but anyone says he diddnt then hes dangerous and should not be in f1, lewis braked earlier thinking massa will still be on the outside when we exit so i better go slower so i dont run out and hit him, massa just thought he could get ham a penalty, maybe he thinks the stewards will take hams title away and give it to massa?

          1. +1
            The racing line is not unique, otherwise overtaking would be impossible. you can brake and push early. Eventually, you don’t maximise your speed of the exit, but the trajectory into the corner allows higher speed for the overtake. As best exemple is Alonso and Webber at Eau Rouge…

    39. Well, he would though wouldn’t he? He and Alonso are perfect team mates, both just winch about Hamilton and nothing else.


      In this scenario where the guy at the back could have had, and should have had backed off. Nowhere does Ham come any close to Massa’s front. Yet there are a lot of people who say it is Massa’s fault? Seriously? Where was Massa supposed to go? Leave the track? Or, leave room so Ham could overtake when he was clearly behind Massa? Without trying to be rude, who in their right mind would think that any self respecting racing driver will do such a thing?

      Stewards are entitled to make a decision, but i have my own opinion on this, and i side with Massa. Lewis should have had waited… to make another move. With this the stewards are setting a precedent, which doesn’t make much sense. Overtaking used to be about one man doing better than the other. Instead, what stewards are pushing is some unseen behaviour on track, where one behind could try and one in front doesn’t defend?

      1. No one said a driver can’t defend his position. The whole problem is Massa is past the point where a driver can legaly defend his position.

      2. Yeah he should leave the track.

        And go back to Brazil, sick of his re-enactment of “Convoy”, he is nothing but Alonso’s personal moving speed bump.

    41. Initially I thought that this was extremely marginal between the two of them. But upon seeing the footage back again I do agree with the stewards findings. Massa clearly had a look over his shoulder.

    42. Massa knew that Hamilton was gaining and went to close the door, hoping Hamilton would slam on the brakes and lose position. I agree with the stewards, Hamilton had the inside line, Massa could have left room and counter-attacked at the next corner. He deserved the penalty, and it’s about time the FIA stop penalizing drivers for ‘going for it’ outside the DRS zone that result in some contact. Massa should have yielded – he just couldn’t stand the flashbacks of Interlagos 2008 and flinched.

    43. Its about time somebody got the penalty and not Hamilton. I’m not saying he’s never to blame, but when you see people overtaking Hamilton he has always been 100% fair with them (eg Schumacher lap 1 Monaco, Vettel lap 1 Korea)

      1. >>when you see people overtaking Hamilton he has always been 100% fair with them (eg Schumacher lap 1 Monaco, Vettel lap 1 Korea)<<

        And indeed Massa lap 1, India.

    44. Massa never leaves space he just turns in regardless ! Think back to Monaco 1st lap at the chicane Schumacher seems one up the inside of Lewis , Lewis doesn’t want to let him by but rather than cause a crash he leaves space then attacks schumacher in the tunnel . Germany : Hamilton gets a bad run out of chicane and webber passes him Hamilton pulls in behind and then attacks down start Finnish straight and re-passes ! I think Hamilton is very poorly treated by massa and stewards ! Massa is an accident on wheels , he’d rather crash and moan than yield and try to re-pass ! Button , alonso , webber , vettel and Hamilton all give each other room !

      1. That’s exactly how to distinguish the top drivers from the rest. It seems like Massa had been causing Lewis problems all year but finally the stewards have taken a proper look.

    45. Massa, although he looked in his mirrors, and certainly saw Lewis, didn’t change a thing to his driving to adapt. He just went careless into the corner, disregarding the other cars around him … not first time for him. When a car is in your inside, you cannot reasonnably look for the apex. For me it is very similar to Monaco, where I do believe Lewis was not 100% at fault.

      The fact that he broke his suspension, again, on a kerbs, just show how little he is questioning his driving! It is always simpler to blame other, and even the kerbs have to be blamed, just for existing. He is the only driver who got a problem with them but requested changes for next year! He is not even at the level of an HRT driver … what a shame for a Ferrari driver!. I do understand that he is under some pressure for his future contract, but c’mon, he is of no use at Ferrari.

      And last but not least, his attitude toward Lewis is a bit childish. I don’t think the grudge between them will ever be solved. He is a spoiled kid, and having all the time his family around him on track might not have helped him grow up!

    46. So I made an effort, I put my arm around him and said ‘good luck for the race’.

      Apart from the fact Lewis shouldn’t go around telling these things, because it seems like he wants to tell everyone he is the good guy and Massa is the bad guy, if this is true then I feel sorry for him. The way Felipe reacted to losing the title in 2008, mantaining his respect for Lewis, and the way they didn’t hate each other, made me happy, and I’m sad that after three years Felipe is letting his anger burst out. Sure, the Singapore crahs might have been frustrating, but this time not only does Felipe not need to be upset with Lewis, but Lewis should be upset with Felipe.

    47. All the Italian press and media present at the race, which, I admit, is biased, concluded Massa was not at fault and neither should have been penalised – some said Hamilton was at fault – but Jean Alesi and Ivan Capelli, which I don’t regard as biased, and have more experience as they’re ex-drivers, made interesting points in Massa’s favour:
      1. – Felipe was ahead of Lewis (Lewis’ front right his Felipe’s rear left);
      2. – Felipe left some space between him and the kerb;
      3. – Felipe stayed on the racing line as if he had driven on the outside he’d have run wide.
      Personally, I think the space Massa left was unsufficient for Hamilton to fit in. But the Ferrari driver was ahead and thus had the right to decide his trajectory before Lewis, as has happened always. There is no real braking zone at that corner, and a pass there is really difficult. If Lewis hadn’t slowed down he and Felipe might have touched, side-by-side, with no real consequence, or Felipe might have swerved right in the end. But Lewis braked and Felipe was ahead. At that point he turned left (of course – the track goes left) but Lewis hadn’t braked enough to stay behind him, just to be partly alongside him, in a position which is difficult to judge by the driver ahead. I wouldn’t have given a penalty to either driver.

      1. (Lewis’ front right his Felipe’s rear left)

        *Lewis’ front right hit Felipe’s rear left

        1. Two things though: Massa lifted off the breaks a bit to get further ahead into the corner, bc. HAM was far enough along side that MAS wouldn’t have been able to get through the corner and stay ahead of HAM; that was different to the normal approach, so he knew enough to change his approach, but then not take care to leave a car’s width on the inside; on the outside there was plenty of space for him, but not to take it at the pace needed to stay ahead – defending on the outside is hard, he should have defended before the corner to keep HAM on the outside, after that it was a bit too late.

          Also, Lewis front right was about the height of Felipe’s sidepod when they hit as far as I recall from rewatching the race.

      2. “2. – Felipe left some space between him and the kerb;”

        No he never, he just hadn’t reached the corners Apex yet. The collision happend on corner entry. Massa was attempting to take the normal racing line.

    48. Felipe was not in the wrong, he was clearly ahead of Hamilton, Hamilton was Not alongside Massa, he was behind.

      This is exactly what would have happened if Alonso hadn’t backed off when Webber passed him at Eau Rouge (Spa). Alonso knew better, so should have Hamilton.

      1. Seriously, you can’t just turn in on drivers and expect them to slam on the brakes because you are half a car’s length ahead.

        He should have gave Lewis room and then just kept ahead into the next corner. They could have gone two abreast quite easily. It’s called having respect for each other when racing. Likewise, perhaps Lewis should have realised Massa was just going to turn in on him and driven accordingly.

        Personally, although I think Massa was more to blame it was also just a racing incident in a car race that didn’t require any penalties.

        1. No, it’s called, “I’m Lewis and everyone should get out of my way”. How many crashes has this guy had this season? It’s nearly every race.

          1. I don’t agree.

            They should each give each other space to race alongside each other.

            Hamilton was clearly at fault with Kobayashi at Spa because he didn’t give him enough room. He was also at fault in my opinion when he drove into Massa at Suzuka.

            But this time Massa was at fault for basically turning into a competitor that was occupying a piece of racetrack and hence causing an avoidable accident, however I do see how it’s easy to view it from a different perspective due to Hamilton’s record this year.

      2. The clue is in the if alonso hadnt backed of when webber PASSED him, massa should have seen him up the inside backed off then got the cut back for the better drive. Where did this silly rule of hes infront, i theory ham was infront because he was closest to the apex, massa was infront if they were heading straight of the track but they wernt they were turning left! God i remember all these arguments with my uncle about senna.

      3. This is exactly what would have happened if Alonso hadn’t backed off when Webber passed him at Eau Rouge (Spa). Alonso knew better, so should have Hamilton.

        I was going to make this point @t3x and I’m glad you see it in the same way as I do. Once Lewis backed off, he should have got out of Felipe’s way, not half-way alongside him.

    49. Wow, am quite surprised the No. of people supporting HAM over another one of his foolish ambitious moves.Totally agree with you Infy.

      1. I can’t believe some people are still supporting MAS on this one for one of his foolish ambitious moves!

        Perhaps I’m wrong, but from where I’m looking he looks in his mirrors 3-4 times, clearly knows that Hamilton is alongside and then just drives the corner as if he’s not there, turning into the McLaren and causing the accident.

        But I guess that’s why the world’s such an interesting place – we all see the same event differently! Fair enough.

        1. Just because he looks in his mirror it don’t mean that he knows where he is.
          If Hamilton was in his blindspot then it wouldn’t matter how many times he looks in his mirror, he would still not be able to see him.

          1. @mads If Massa didn’t think Hamilton was there, why did he move off-line to defend his position?

            1. @Keith Collantine I am not saying he didn’t know he was behind him, of cause he did.
              I am just saying that he might not know where he was. I doubt he expected Hamilton to go up his inside into that corner, and if he can’t see him in the mirror as he turns in there is not much he could do about it.
              Not that I know that, that was what happened, I am just trying to say that just because he is looking in his mirror it isn’t a guarantee that he sees him.

            2. I am not saying he didn’t know he was behind him, of cause he did.
              I am just saying that he might not know where he was

              I am saying Massa knew Hamilton was alongside him – not just behind him, but drawing far enough alongside his car to make a pass. That is clear not just from the fact that Massa was looking for Hamilton but that he moved his car off-line to defend his position.

              That he did this, and then turned in as if Hamilton wasn’t there, proves why he deserved the penalty.

    50. Martin Brundle and DC both said it was a racing incident and there was nothing Massa could have done. I agree with this. These guys have a large amount of F1 experience so I trust there judgement.

      1. Brundle also said somewhat cryptically after the race that the replays shed a little more light on the incident. During the race DC was going on about Hamilton being in Massa’s blind spot, but the replays showed that Hamilton swept across both Massa’s mirrors and that Massa was looking at his inside mirror as he squeezed Hamilton. I reckon it’s for this reason that the stewards decided that Massa should be penalised.

      2. there was nothing Massa could have done

        That’s obviously rubbish. He knew Hamilton was there, all he had to do was leave him a little room.

    51. We all have seen the tapes, I saw live that Massa had clearly known Hamilton was there and deliberately slammed the door shut, fully knowing what would happen. Lewis was along side him, and you can see him backing out towards the corner (otherwise theyd have touched front wheel to front wheel) and hit his front corner on Massa’s back corner. A proper penalty was given. Massa has been slobberingly mad about Lewis and their contacts, and this was Massa saying “alright well you wanna stick your nose in? I am going to turn in anyway” except this time Hamilton had the corner. A proper penalty.

    52. I blame Massa for that incident,Hamilton had more then half the car side by side to Massa before they brake,it was Massa job to avoid as he was on the outside going in the corner.Not sure whether he did it for frustration on Hamilton or not but it didn’t help him by any mean.

    53. kenneth Ntulume
      31st October 2011, 6:01

      For Massa the rule is plain………..DO NOT let Hamilton through or crash with him if possible…..”Lewis Never Pass me”
      its so intense a rage in him, that Psychologically its valid for him. Like a high skool kid that provokes and starts a fight, then complains that he was hit back…..
      Iam really feeling sorry for Massa here!!!!

      1. Its a direct team order…

    54. I think that’s probably the case. If a driver loses something in an incident like this, the other driver will get a penalty. It’s not fair and I think it will hurt the racing which we all love and want to see.

      Speaking about this incident alone, I can’t see any reason Massa should be blamed here:
      1) He was the car in front as demonstrated by earlier pictures.
      2) He had the RACING LINE. Maybe it’s not clear for some of the other posters, but there’s a good reason why it’s called the racing line. It gives you the best speed through the corner. It’s not a question of how much room is on the outside of the turn, because this is racing, not cruising, and every driver wants to take as much speed through the turn as possible and that’s doable only when clipping the apex, like Massa did.
      3) I also think that it would’ve been impossible for Massa to know the exact position of Ham’s car when he turned in. Watch it frame by frame and realize that you’re talking only about hundreds of a second between the moment when Lewis was alongside Felipe and the moment when Massa got his nose in front benefiting from the better entry point he had chosen.

      The problem is that the incident is between Hamilton and Massa. If there were any other two drivers, there wouldn’t have been any penalty and they would’ve just shaken hands after the race and apologized to each other. Unfortunately, these two really have a history together and it’s a shame, because they’re really good drivers.

      1. Sorry, this was a reply for a previous poster.

      2. So what you are saying it that noone can ever overtake in a corner because the leading car can at anytime move to the other side if the holy RACING LINE dictates it.

        FYI You are at the wrong sport, Drag racing is your preferred sport…

        This is racing, not monday morning traffic, all inches of the racing track is in play, see a hole? GO for it.

        1. Of course you can overtake, but why say it was Hamilton’s corner? Was he in front or even alongside Massa? No. Was he on the racing line? No. Of course that many drivers would have AVOIDED Hamilton, but that doesn’t say he was entitled to go first into the corner.

          I agree with you that they should be racing each other, but stop and think for a second: 90% (if not all) of Massa’s incidents have been with Hamilton. On the other hand, Hamilton had incidents with half of the grid: Maldonado, Massa, Button, Webber, Kobayashi and that’s only what I remember for the moment.

          FIY, both David Coulthard and Martin Brundle said that a penalty wasn’t necessary here and I don’t think you can put into question that they like Massa more than Hamilton.

          Racing is all about precision, strategy, not driving like crazy and diving into corners with your eyes closed hoping you’ll get it right.

    55. I’ve no doubt there will be some disagreement – but I want to cast everyone’s mind back to Australia 2011.

      Button, alongside Massa, heading to a corner. Massa turns in as if the car to his side isn’t there. On that occasion, there was an escape road for Button to use to avoid a collision (unlike in India for Massa v Hamilton). But in that situation, Jenson got the penalty, not Massa. Yes, JB got an advantage and took the place, but, looking at the decision in India, doesn’t that show Massa should also have had one for putting a competitor at risk?

      Rules may be modified on reflection, but this is yet another example where a consistent approach from the stewards is sadly lacking.

    56. Racing incident for me, but I veer slightly to Hamilton’s fault. I think it was harsh on Massa and I don’t think Hamilton “had the corner”. He wasn’t far enough alongside. If I was Massa I’d’ve done exactly the same thing. He has to set his stall out for the future.
      We might see these moves in BTCC where the result is the inside guy T-Bones the guy turning in, but not in F1 thanks.

      On the plus side I think this is great for F1. We need more driver grudge matches. It’s been far too long since we had some proper bad feeling amongst drivers.

      1. “If I was Massa I’d’ve done exactly the same thing.”

        Then you too would have been penalised.
        The decision has been passed, not to the agreement of the whole F1 fan base, so let it go.
        Massa had been looking good for a penalty for a while, he should of been given one for simply pestering the stewards and Charlie Whiting with his witterings.
        Of course my opinion only.

    57. Ferrari believe the collision with Hamilton contributed to the suspension failure that put Massa out of the race.

      That’s a bit rich, Massa did exactly what he did in qualifying – took all the curb and clobbered the raised concrete bump. No other driver managed to do that, yet Massa did so twice.

      Massa has only scored half the points of his teammate this year, that’s costing his team a lot of prize money. His performance is not good enough to retain his seat and so he seems to be looking for scapegoats. If I were Ferrari I’d be looking to take whoever gets the shove from Toro Rosso or Force India. Ferrari’s the only top team without a balanced line-up: Red Bull, McLaren and Mercedes all have two drivers capable of regularly getting the most out of their car, Ferrari only has Alonso. Whether Massa continues this vendetta or not won’t change the fact that he’s badly under-performed this season.

      1. “That’s a bit rich, Massa did exactly what he did in qualifying”

        I am getting quite sick of tripe certin teams come out with. In a sport where everything is seen/heard/monitored/analysed. Honestly, do they think we’re effing blind and/or utterly stupid?

        Massa ****** the kerb like he did in qualifying, noone to blame but himself.

    58. kenneth Ntulume
      31st October 2011, 10:36

      Massa has somehow how created his relevancy by being seen as feuding with Hamilton, I somewhat think Massa is not worthy of his new found recognition……..
      genius if he intended to achieve this level of attention

    59. Looking at these posts, I think its obvious that most agree with Felipe Massa’s penalty. I am of the opinion also, it was petulent by Massa to be honest, and wrecked both their races. I know Ferrari favour Alonso, and after the Indian Grands Prix performance by Felipe I can see why! To be honest, I don’t think Ferrari can be all that impressed by Massa this season, as they need both cars to do well if they ever want to win the constructors championship again. For instance, Rubens Barrichello may have been the perfect foil for Schumacher years ago, but he always got good results for the team and seldom made mistakes.
      This is harsh I know, given the circumstances of Massa’s near fatal 2009 crash, and the fact that he came back into Formula One when others would have quit. But how much longer can the excuse be coughed up by a driver who consistently keeps underperforming? At the moment, he looks like the rookie he was back in 2002 at Sauber, and not championship worthy material that he was for Ferrari in 2008.

    60. I do a lot on online racing and here’s a nice description about ‘Corner Rights’, that should be noted by all racers.

      “you must establish substantial overlap with the car ahead before a corner’s turn-in point to have the right for room to be left for you by the ahead driver”

      Looking back on the replay, Lewis had this overlap.
      Also the car on the inside will have to slow down more to make the corner, hence Massa being able to brake later in this instance.

      1. To further add to this, despite braking early, and trying to avoid a mad man, Massa’s sidepods still made contact with Hamilton’s front wheel. Can someone tell me how Massa would have made that corner if Hamilton’s car happened to be a barrier?
        I have never seen people lie so openly in the face of clear facts.
        If Hamilton is ahead, it’s always his fault.
        If Hamilton is behind, it’s always his fault.

        Obviously there is something about Hamilton people just don’t like. Even when he isn’t saying anything.

    61. Massa braked later and made the corner first, prooved by the fact that Hamilton hit Massa’s rear wheel. They were not side by side in this incident.

      Its was upto Hamilton to over take safely, not to force Massa to go off the racing line to avoid contact.

      We may aswell say to all drivers, just take a late lunge up the inside and the driver infront will have to yeild or be penalised, will be good to watch.

      1. “not to force Massa to go off the racing line to avoid contact.”

        With all due respect, thats precisly what racing is, on a fundimental level, you want to position your car in such a way that the guy infront either has to back off in speed, or take another line, to avoid contact.

        This is what hamilton did, he let Massa know that he was there, Massa drove into that apex as if he was driving around on his own with noone beside him. This is just poor racing.

        Hamilton and Webber had some great wheel-to-wheel racing in Korea through med/high speed corners because they positioned their cars in ways that they other guy couldnt just cut him up into the apex, so therefore gave each other room enough for 2 cars.

    62. Johnny Herbert, one of the three stewards this weekend, explains the reason for Massa’s penalty:

      Herbert explains Massa’s penalty: “He knew where Hamilton was”

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