Haas beating teams who have three times more staff – Steiner

43 comments on “Haas beating teams who have three times more staff – Steiner”

1. 

   Oxnard (@montalvo)
   4th July 2018, 0:11

   Well Guenther, it does help Ferrari develops your car.
   1. 

      Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
      4th July 2018, 0:43

      @montalvo I was about to say that too. That Haas is essentially a proven Ferrari. Sure it ain’t easy for a small team but that certainly helps!

      As for the time change, they should’ve known. The world cup schedule has been in place for a long time… They had time to plan it, it’s too late now. Tough luck.

      They always make a mistake with Silverstone. Either the World Cup or the Wimbledon’s men final… It’s time to finally learn that people are interested in other sports, specially those involving the host country!
      1. 

         JohnNik (@johnnik)
         4th July 2018, 7:42

         To be fair, nobody expected England to still be in the World Cup at this point.
         1. 

            Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
            4th July 2018, 13:43

            @johnnik it was a possibility anyway. You don’t need a bright man to tell you that England could be playing right during qualifying and a lot of people would switch to that instead.

            Besides, it’s not just the english people that are interested in the World Cup. It’s a massive global event… most people will always chose the World Cup instead of F1.
            1. 

               JohnNik (@johnnik)
               4th July 2018, 15:03

               It was a tongue in cheek comment.
               I thought that was obvious.
   2. 

      Todfod (@todfod)
      4th July 2018, 6:28

      @montalvo

      Argh… you beat me to it.

      I guess you don’t really need a lot of people when Ferrari makes your car for you. This isn’t anything Mr.Steiner should be particularly proud of.
      1. 

         Ian S.
         4th July 2018, 18:45

         So force India is a Mercedes and red bull and Renault have the same motor too. Stop hating.
   3. 

      Matteo (@m-bagattini)
      4th July 2018, 8:50

      @montalvo it is indeed true, but also something within the rules that other teams on the grid can do
      1. 

         Todfod (@todfod)
         4th July 2018, 9:04

         @m-bagattini

         Agree. But outsourcing most of your work (and reducing staff) and then having pride in the fact that your team is smaller is barely anything to harp on about.
   4. 

      grat
      5th July 2018, 17:58

      Sort of. Ferrari develops a car, and sells many of the components they use to Haas. But Haas still has to develop the listed parts. Sure, they’re going to have very similar chassis, since the outside of the car very closely follows the contour of the interior layout, but the aero is significantly different from one car to the other.

      Claiming the Haas is “just a Ferrari” is not only insulting to Haas, it should be embarrassing to the claimant.
2. 

   schooner (@schooner)
   4th July 2018, 0:51

   Those teams Steiner is referring to have so many more employees because they develop and fabricate (nearly) their entire car. I like Haas, and it’s cool that they are doing so well, but I hope their business model isn’t yet another straw that is slowly breaking the back of the true F1 privateer/manufacturer.
   1. 

      anon
      4th July 2018, 8:36

      @schooner, that is one critical difference – Haas can share the resources of one of those major teams (Ferrari) to give itself many of the advantages of one of those larger teams, whilst having the cost base of a smaller team.

      As you say, it’s something of a double edged sword – whilst, on the one hand, it makes it easier and cheaper for a newer team to get up and running, at the same time it creates a dependency of that smaller team on the larger one that then creates conflicts in how the sport is run and managed.

      For example, under the current governance agreement, the sixth and final position that is allocated to teams for votes on Strategy Working Group is allocated to the highest placed independent team – whilst Force India have usually held that position, if Haas were to get ahead of them in the WCC that position might then go to them instead. Force India have, generally, been one of those teams that has fought for more equitable treatment of the smaller teams, which hasn’t always gone down well with some of the larger teams – would a team like Haas necessarily be quite so willing to pick those fights if, by partnering with one of those major teams, it would have a potential interest in keeping the current status quo?

      Whilst it does help that team slot into the midfield battle and become competitive much more quickly, it does potentially impose a cap on their performance – it is very unlikely that they will ever be able to be on the same level of performance of the larger team they depend on. However, on the flip side, by being able to come in and compete immediately in the midfield, it puts much more pressure on the independent teams, such as Williams or Force India, and slowly choke them of the funds that they need to survive.

      As things stand, as Haas does still nevertheless undertake a reasonable amount of their own development work, not to mention also relying on Dallara to undertake work for them (a company that doesn’t have a vested interest within the sport and is therefore a more neutral party), it’s not quite on the limits of what is acceptable.

      Nevertheless, we are now seeing other teams threatening to start pushing those limits further – for example, Red Bull has suggested that, given what Haas and Ferrari can get away with, it might go back to a closer partnership with Toro Rosso and start sharing more components and design work with their sister team, which was one of the very reasons why the sport began introducing those restrictions in the first place (to stop larger teams abusing the development restrictions by getting smaller teams to do development work for them).
      1. 

         Mark in Florida
         4th July 2018, 15:35

         People like to harp on about HAAS driving Ferraris old F1 car. Great day do you give Ferrari that much credit? Do you honestly think that Ferrari racing that same chassis could win a race or even be competitive with all of the development that goes on in F1. Yes HAAS does source as much as is allowed under the rules, so what, they aren’t trying to reinvent the wheel. Their time and talent is better spent on other things other remaking parts that are readily available per the rules. If their car is competitive it’s because they made it that way. Any small team that doesn’t take advantage of the rules in place is on a fools errand if they think they can compete at all with the big boys who have bucket loads of money to spend. HAAS should be proud of their accomplishments, they came with a plan and it has worked, so why all the hate and derision for what they have done? If Red Bull wants to help Torro Rosso why not as long as it’s done by the rules. Maybe Mercedes could help Williams get back on track they have tried doing it their way and how has that worked out? They can’t find the barn door.
3. 

   Darryn Smith (@darryn)
   4th July 2018, 1:01

   That picture of the Haas team. What is wrong with this world? There was a time when a team winning a WCC wouldn’t celebrate this much.
   1. 

      Rhys Lloyd (@justrhysism)
      4th July 2018, 5:41

      What is wrong with this world? There was a time when people/teams could celebrate their personal wins without being criticised for their achievement.
      1. 

         Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
         4th July 2018, 15:55

         @darryn @justrhysism Probably the same time that people were able to watch F1 teams be successful without worrying whether the powers-that-be had built the platform they depend upon specifically to undermine other teams in more difficult circumstances. Now I believe Haas, for its part, has come by its success honestly, and deserves all the happiness it gets from competing as best as it knows how. (Also, I like how obvious its joy at its successes is).

         However, I also do not trust the motives of the FIA in enabling the platform that permitted that success. There seems to be constant testing to see how far the authorities can push things in an anti-independent direction, and Gunther Steiner has unwittingly underlined why the platform existing is a problem. It might not be Haas’ fault that there is mud being thrown about this, but I can see why the mud is being thrown. The mud really should be thrown at the authorities for trying to manipulate such successes into justifying series-destructive actions, though – not the Haas crew.
   2. 

      Martijn (@)
      4th July 2018, 11:27

      I agree but I guess that’s what you get when 3 teams are so far ahead that best of the rest is celebrated.
   3. 

      grat
      5th July 2018, 18:05

      Yes, how DARE Haas celebrate their single biggest points haul in their team’s 3 year history?!?

      You’d think they were in this championship to score points or something.
4. 

   Jay Menon (@jaymenon10)
   4th July 2018, 1:36

   Sometimes you just want to buy Seb a beer. He’s right, the drivers to whinge a lot, some more than others.
   1. 

      BasCB (@bascb)
      4th July 2018, 7:08

      And If i remember right, he was one of those in the “more” faction, right @jaymenon10. So I guess he is admitting to making a mistake on that in the past :-)
      1. 

         Joao (@johnmilk)
         4th July 2018, 10:29

         @bascb actually that is exactly what he said

         I think it’s a result of all the drivers, all of us, I think we’ve more or less all been there, whinging and complaining, ‘oh he’s done this, he’s done that

         The curious thing about the article is that it takes quotes from Vettel that were made after the race. You can see his conversation in F1’s youtube channel with Will Buxton.
5. 

   Robbie (@robbie)
   4th July 2018, 2:03

   @keithcollantine Thank you for cotd. Related to that from the articles referenced above, I’m not sure I can agree with Horner that Mercedes were complacent from being so dominant so long. It took me far longer to read the article than the team had to decide if they should pit LH once the vsc started. I’d be surprised if Mercedes aren’t quite aware these days of Ferrari’s strength and RBR’s outside chances of podiums taking pints away from the top two teams.
   1. 

      Robbie (@robbie)
      4th July 2018, 2:04

      Lol taking points away…perhaps pints too;)
   2. 

      ColdFly (@)
      4th July 2018, 7:04

      I’m with you that I’m not sure if it was a mistake at that time. They made a call which with hindsight proved to be wrong.
      And who would have guessed that a dominant Mercedes on softer (older) tyres could not drive away from a RBR, or who would have guessed that that their car on newer tyres could not catch the cars in front more decisively. @robbie

      I don’t think that there was too little time. If I was running their strategy I would at every second of the race (before something happens) know if I would pit or not under (V)SC and what tyres I would fit. And I’m sure they’re smarter than I am.
      I would not be surprised if their models still said that a single regular stop would be faster than a double stop (of which one under VSC), or having to drive on eggs to bring the car home on softs.
   3. 

      Dom (@3dom)
      4th July 2018, 13:49

      @robbie it was at least the 3rd time that they’ve been caught out by safety car or VSC in 9 races. Pretty bad stat, and seemingly lack of learning. To me it looked pretty obvious that they didn’t have the pace advantage to risk losing track position
6. 

   Jamie-er
   4th July 2018, 2:11

   Bit frustrating, World Cup is the most viewed sports competition in the world, F1 plans first triple header to be slap bang in the middle of it. F1 should’ve planned ahead to avoid a clash. They did in France and failed in Austria. I was planning to switch over once the game started last Sunday, ended up watching the full race because it was so blisteringly gripping, but as a result missed some football. Not the end of the world but could have been avoided through some planning – they had plenty of time. Thankfully there’s no match this coming Sunday
   1. 

      Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
      4th July 2018, 2:36

      Agree 100%, completely avoidable! ridiculous if they change it now…
7. 

   Phylyp (@phylyp)
   4th July 2018, 3:25

   I laughed at that headline about Seb and whingeing, because I have to say that Seb himself is one of those drivers. But then I clicked through and found that the sub-heading in the article alluded to him being one of those drivers as well, so that’s fair enough.

   In the same article, however, is this bit:

   Whiting had also intimated at the Red Bull Ring that stewards might in future look more at the consequences of an incident for others, rather than focusing on the scale of the perpetrators’ mistake or their intentions, when deciding penalties.

   “But that’s not something we are thinking about [at the moment]. We are thinking about talking about it, but it’s not something we do presently.”

   I am not a fan of this line of thought. It is a slippery slope, because “consequences” is such a loaded word. Was the consequence of Vettel blocking Sainz just that the latter might not have progressed in qualifying? Or would the consequence have potentially been an accident?

   I would like such incidents to be looked at purely from the perspective of the incident, and not the bigger picture. This is not a court of law where it can be argued that the theft of a loaf of bread by a starving person is a different type of theft than some big executive siphoning off a pension fund, and with the punishment scaled accordingly (quite often, a life/death sentence for the bread stealer, and a golden parachute for the exec!)
   1. 

      Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
      4th July 2018, 15:59

      @phylyp While I can see some circumstances where the nature of the consequences might legitimately grant relief from the full consequences of a penalty… …F1 stewards already do this (for example, unsafe releases are already scaled depending on whether prevention of the unsafe release was possible, and then whether the team did its utmost to mitigate the effects). I am concerned that Charlie Whiting has not noticde this.
8. 

   JohnLee
   4th July 2018, 4:03

   other teams should start buying merc parts to beat has.
9. 

   Tristan (@skipgamer)
   4th July 2018, 5:17

   Ferrari provide the listed parts, Dallara develops the rest. The team assembles it and calls it a HAAS…

   It makes perfect sense they have the results they do for 1/3rd the size of other teams as they’re only doing 1/3rd of the job of building an F1 car.

   How much money are they spending is what would be of more interest.
10. 

    Urvaksh (@thedoctor03)
    4th July 2018, 6:33

    A massive Vettel fan here but I have to call him out on this. He has certainly not seen anything wrong when asking for blue flags or talking about ping pong matches on radio to get the stewards’ attention. If there is a problem, he has contributed to it if not started it. You cannot have it both ways.
11. 

    ColdFly (@)
    4th July 2018, 6:44

    Horner thinks Mercedes strategist Vowles was put in ‘unfair’ situation
    “It’s always difficult to know the intricacies of other teams but I think the one thing you have to do as a team is win as a team and lose as a team,”

    I’m with Horner on this one. Supporting the driver is a team responsibility. And if a mistake is made then you should not single out one member, and certainly not on air for the world to hear.
    Toto should have come on air and tell Lewis that they made a mistake and play ‘shut up and drive’ by Rihanna.
    1. 

       Will Jones
       4th July 2018, 6:58

       Had what you say other people “should” have done (as if that’s reasonable) been what happened, I know I wouldn’t have the respect for Mercedes that I currently do.

       Corporations refusing to admit a mistake and bending over backwards to try to maintain a PR sheen are ten a penny and don’t seem to realise how transparent they are. Corporations who allow their employees to admit error and still flourish are to be commended in my opinion.
    2. 

       Phylyp (@phylyp)
       4th July 2018, 7:50

       @coldfly – +1 to Toto coming on air if required. The typical radio comms have usually been race engineer, with the team principal stepping in if required (e.g. 2013 Malaysia for both Mercedes and RBR, Steiner’s “shut up!”, etc.). At this rate we’ll soon have the rear jack man also coming on air to apologize for dropping a car off its jacks by mistake.

       It’s not just win as a team and lose as a team, it is also – publicly share your successes with your team, but shoulder the blame.
12. 

    bob (@riptide)
    4th July 2018, 8:31

    Other than the driver engineers Mercedes have had Vowles on the radio in the past, Paddy Lowe, Jock Clear talking to the drivers from the factory; and so on. That’s the way they go about their business. Odd that after all these years it’s suddenly an issue for some. I can understand where Horners coming from though. He spent four years on the pit wall as Marko’s messenger boy. But maybe Mercedes could go the full RB route on this and Wolff could give Hamilton a cuddle on the pit wall like Horner did to Seb everytime something went wrong?
13. 

    Andy (@andycz)
    4th July 2018, 9:03

    I would like to write few points about my first live grand prix. I know it’s bit off-topic but I’m writing it mainly because of the Mercedes strategy. Sorry for my english, I’m not a native speaker.

    Finally after 19 years of watching Formula One only in TV I managed to see Grand prix live in Austria.

    We were watching the race in turn 3 without any access to TV/F1 TV/commentary and we even did not know the lap count. But when Bottas stopped almost in front of us I told my father they have to pit. All of them. Even without any info what is going on it was quite clear they should use this VSC to pit. It was quite a surprise when Hamilton did not pit and after that we were concern about another pit stop for everyone in front. But then Hamilton stopped as well. So my point is that maybe too much info on pit wall can force you to make a mistake :-).

    Just few more points about the GP itself:

    1. We watched Quali at last two turns and it was amazing. The speed is incredible compared to TV coverage.

    2. But even more astonishing was to see cars brake to turn 3 from side (from the straight between turn 3 and 4). It was like a special effect from some movie! They stopped just on the spot! Amazing…

    3. The sound was awesome. I did not hear V8 or V10 live, but the sound of F1 was just great. It was quite interesting to listen different engines in first practice (maybe they were using older ones?) For example, in Practice 1 Honda has the best sound from all of them, but after that it sounded more or less the same like other engines. Another interesting point is, that Ferrari (I mean like the Team Ferrari, not all engines) was the loudest sometimes. Maybe something with different settings.

    4. Another point to sound: GP3 were quite fine, actually the loudest and races were really fun to watch. Formula 2 has the worst sound, but flamethrowers from exhaust have compensated the sound. Great show! And Russel was unstoppable.

    5. If you want to go to some GP, watch Quali in the fastest corner you can get and watch the race in some spot, where is a lot of action :-). I think we managed this quite well and the feeling when Kimi overtaken Daniel and lap after Seb overtaken Hamilton was one of my best sport experience ever!

    Sorry for long post, I just don’t have anyone around me whit whom I can share this experience!
    1. 

       Sweatshop
       5th July 2018, 23:47

       awesome to read, living in CZ too and probsbly missed the opportunity to watch a gp live but from your comment it sounds like i’d enjoy it a lot
14. 

    socksolid (@socksolid)
    4th July 2018, 9:16

    When it comes to the new lmp1 rules the costs for manufacturers may be going down but for privateers I’ve seen numbers like 3x the costs compared to now. Hybrid drivetrains are simply super expensive and weigh a lot.
    http://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/wec-2020-2021-regulations/
15. 

    Jere (@jerejj)
    4th July 2018, 9:55

    In response to Jon Noble’s tweet: Yes, it’s too late to change the schedule anymore. Altering the timing with this short-notice isn’t really doable as William Esler, and Chris Medland point out.
16. 

    Adam (@rocketpanda)
    4th July 2018, 10:26

    Its my birthday too! :D
    1. 

       Joao (@johnmilk)
       4th July 2018, 10:41

       Congrats Adam
    2. 

       Pat Ruadh (@fullcoursecaution)
       4th July 2018, 12:31

       Happy birthday rocketpanda!

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