Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton crash, Monza, 2021

Verstappen given three-place grid penalty for Hamilton crash

2021 Italian Grand Prix

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Max Verstappen has been given a three-place grid penalty for the next race for causing a collision with Lewis Hamilton.

The Red Bull driver will serve the penalty at the Russian Grand Prix.

The stewards ruled Verstappen was “predominantly to blame” for the collision.

“Car 44 [Hamilton] was exiting the pits,” they noted. “Car 33 [Verstappen] was on the main straight. At the 50m board before turn one, car 44 was significantly ahead of car 33. Car 33 braked late and started to move alongside car 44, although at no point in the sequence does car 33 get any further forward than just behind the front wheel of car 44.

“During the hearing the driver of car 33 asserted that the cause of the incident was the driver of car 44 opening the steering after turn one and ‘squeezing’ him to the apex of turn two. The driver of car 44 asserted that the driver of car 33 attempted to pass very late and should have given up the corner either by backing off sooner, or by turning left behind the kerb.

“The stewards observed on CCTV footage that the driver of car 44 was driving an avoiding line, although his position caused car 33 to go onto the kerb. But further, the stewards observed that car 33 was not at all alongside car 44 until significantly into the entry into turn one. In the opinion of the stewards, this manoeuvre was attempted too late for the driver of car 33 to have ‘the right to racing room’.

“While car 44 could have steered further from the kerb to avoid the incident, the stewards determined that his position was reasonable and therefore find that the driver of car 33 was predominantly to blame for the incident.

“In coming to the penalty the stewards emphasise that they have only considered the incident itself and not the consequences thereof.”

Verstappen was also given two penalty points on his licence, which are his first two for the current 12-month period.

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Keith Collantine
Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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394 comments on “Verstappen given three-place grid penalty for Hamilton crash”

  1. I think the stewards are about right

    1. Yes they are right, but it is just unfortunate he’s getting the penalty even if I believe he was clearly in the wrong. I was already enjoying how he was forcing Mercedes to lift up their game

    2. How is it right? Lewis had his front left wheel nearly on the line of the turn 2 apex. He left NO space for Max, thus forcing him all the way onto the curb, causing Max to bounce into him. One of the worst decisions I’ve seen the FIA take in 10 years. And for a championship fight ! Disgusting.

      1. Look at the flip side of the FIA coin…. when racing, only one wheel has to be on the track for the lap to be legal. Do you want all 4 wheels inside the line when racing? Like many pro-Max arguments, you can’t have it both ways. T4, L1, offered as evidence ;-)

      2. I think the stewards’ quotes included in the article make that pretty clear.

      3. Did max leave a full cars width at turn 4 on the first lap? Did Hamilton keep turning and end up in top of Max’s car?

        1. Did hamilton get a penalty on that one or was that ruled a racing incident?

          1. Hamilton avoided the crash by leaving the track and rejoining behind Max. What would he have got a penalty for?

    3. Verstappen on the radio after the incident “that’s what you get when you don’t leave the space”.

    4. Richly deserved. This was 80% Max’s fault. What’s more, he dished it out earlier in the race. Can’t have it both ways

      Red Bull have a lot to answer for here. They have been pumping Max up since he was (just) 17 with comments like ‘max will not give way’ or Íf you see max in you mirrors you know he’s coming through’. Blah Blah Blah.

      Meanwhile Dan is now a winner after leaving Red Bull.

    5. Coventry Climax
      13th September 2021, 2:09

      No they are not ‘about right’. To me, it was Hamilton who was moving in the braking zone, and cutting off room for Verstappen, who had greater speed, and nowhere to go but on the outside. Braking because someone is leaving the pits is a ridiculous suggestion. But Verstappen obviously still made the first corner and would -therefor- also have made the second. I distinctly remember the entire BBC crew praising Verstappen for being able to brake so late and still make the corner without any lockups or slides. Well, that first corner today looked very much like that.

      Obviously both drivers are not giving in. And rightfully so. We’ve had such a situation many times before in F1, and we called it fighting, then. The drivers involved then, are on most lists of highly admired, great drivers of the past.
      The drivers involved today however, are constantly whining to race-control (ugly word, sounds like there’s someone or something determining everything, which might not be too far from the truth) attempting to have the other drivers get penalties. And by the so-called fans of today, drivers of the ‘wrong team’ are called ugly names, and a steadlily growing number the comments on forums such as here are pretty sad to read. And then the FIA isn’t very helpful either, with arbitrary rules (like track limits), mid-season rule-changes, inconsistent penalties, ridiculous explanations for ridiculous decisions and allowing the use of inferior tyres despite a so-called quest for safety. If safety really was important, than the chicanes at Monza would have been made wider, it’s asking for trouble the way they are now. If racing as one really was important, we wouldn’t have races in debatable countries. If less controversy is actually the plan, I can’t see any decisions to back that. It’s plain hypocrisy.
      The FIA and Liberty are currently doing a very good job killing F1. Todt-, Masi- and Brawn-speak, it’s contempt of everyone and everything but money.
      So this is the ‘show’ they are all talking about and saying it is what the ‘fans’ want? Yuck.

      1. I couldn’t agree more.
        I’ve been a serious race fan for 58 years and competed a little as well.
        I can hardly believe some of the calls the stewards make. That collision was absolutely on Hamilton.
        What is the point of hard evidence if it’s just ignored?

        1. You made me add it up – serious race fan for 64 years: And Max simply has to stop expecting everyone in his path to jump off the track to make way for him (or be bashed off).

          1. It is true Verstappen had more momentum near the apex; as the stewards mention, he gets there by breaking very late to get alongside, at a point that chicane had no space for two cars. It is exactly why he gets a penalty I think.

      2. Blaize Falconberger (@)
        13th September 2021, 8:51

        So the way to win is to drive at full chat at everyone, and oblige them to get out of the way or have a crash? ((Facepalm))

        1. That worked great for Senna!

      3. Hamilton didn’t move in the braking zone, he changed his as is normal when exiting the pit and braked appropriately.
        Stop inventing nonsense because moving in the braking zone is only applicable with drivers who have been running in tandem up to that braking zone.

    6. I think they should remove those curbs which started the whole accident the rear left of max hit the curb the car get push up and to the right which the right rear of max toughed the rear which of the upgoing movement get launched over lewis.
      Without the curbs max would probaly rubbed lewis car and both would continue the race.

      The view of the stewards is a bit strange as Max should have a 10 seconds time penaulty nothing more.

      1. The view of the stewards should have taken the curb incident with the desicion.

      2. Every other driver knew what was there hence they aborted their attempt going round the outside on that part of the track. Only Max who decided to drive over it.

      3. How can he be given a 10 second penalty? That is not one available to the stewards if a driver is out of the race.

    7. With his do or die approach I think Verstappen is losing way to many points in this championship. He needs to get smarter if he is to maximize his talent. Championships are not just won by finishing in front all the time. Consistently scoring points as often as is possible is equally important. At Silverstone Max could have gone wide and then complained that Hamilton pushed him off track. Hamilton would have had to give the place back or get a penalty. Max chose not do this and continued to turn in knowing another car was there. Any smart racer knows this is highly likely to end badly. In Monza he was not significantly alongside when they approached the 1st corner, but continued round the outside anyway knowing full well that there was never going to be space at turn 2. A smarter driver would back out or go wide and stay in the race. In both cases a significant amount of points were lost just because he refuses to concede. There are also the financial implications to the teams having to repair the cars, which is more significant now there are cost caps.

      I think Max has tremendous talent, but if he is not going to wisen up, his chances of winning multiple championships is greatly reduced

  2. Classic maFIA

    1. The report is mystifying and inane. The contact is rear tyre to rear tyre, from that perspective the whole argument is mute. Both drivers made a better effort of making the turn than most contacts this Sunday, crucially nobody benefitted from it, until the penalty, now Bottas is most likely going to finish ahead of Max in Russia. The Giovinazzi penalty is also ridiculous, he was rejoining the track, he missed the corner because he was not in control so how can he rejoin safely, he did his best and Sainz who stuck his car on the outside kerb was running out of track and clipped Gio. Spinning waa more than enough penalty for Sainz not using his left foot.

      1. Spinning was more than enough of a penalty for Gio since Sainz cannot use his left foot.

      2. yeah, that penalty was a bit much. i was surprised sainz just drove into him. as much as i may agree with the penalty for max – if it needs a penalty, im questioning all the stewarding due to that call on gio

      3. Are you reading the article at all…

        But further, the stewards observed that car 33 was not at all alongside car 44 until significantly into the entry into turn one. In the opinion of the stewards, this manoeuvre was attempted too late for the driver of car 33 to have ‘the right to racing room’.

        Its so clearly max’s fault

        1. Please pass on this message to Brundle who is an experienced race driver and confounding his viewers with his statements.

  3. I’m not sure how this is consistent with the penalties at the Red Bull Ring.

    1. Consistency? From the stewards?

      Surely, you jest.

  4. For me, the right call.

    I love both drivers but I keep having flashbacks to Max talking about Lewis’s lack of respect at Silverstone when Lewis celebrated whilst Max was in hospital. It was interesting that Max didn’t check on Lewis despite landing his car on top of him.

    Anyway, game on!!!

    1. @sonnycrockett no, it’s not the right call. It’s clear that a driver cannot race Max for position and when you can’t race someone for position without risking your life, then that person shouldn’t be in F1.

      I think Toto realizes that this is going this championship is going to cost his team dearly.

      I would be ok if Mercedes concede the championship and state they won’t race Max on track. If he’s on track, he just get a clear green light and moves ahead. It’s a shame they have to end the championship but I think they should.

      It’s not going to look good for Mercedes if Lewis dies on track. F1 is done, of course, but they’d be fine with it since that’s what they want from Max.

      1. Is this irony or are you genuinely so overly-dramatic?

        Romain Grosjean took a low level flight over Alonso in Spa, 2012. Ferrari didn’t quit the championship the next day.

        1. @sonnycrockett there’s very little in that comment that makes any sense at all. But I think he’s implying that the FiA are discouraging making moves on Max by ruling in his favour.

          As I say, basically incoherent, as it was Max that got the penalty for failing to make a move stick.

          But your guess is as good as mine!

        2. @sonnycrockett no, this is genuine concern. Romain was very heavily reprimanded for that and his continuation in F1 was called into question as a driver.

          1. I still think it’s ‘overly-dramatic’,
            But I reckon you need a professional to work with you on that rather than some advice from other commenters.

      2. Is this a joke? What utterly nonsense.

      3. @freelittlebirds
        What is it with you?
        Now is the time for a civilised debate, but you love the hyperbole, implying that Verstappen will kill Hamilton if they continue racing.
        What utter nonsense. You represent what is wrong with F1 fans currently.

        1. @Neutralino

          this is fair argument given that max’s response, he clearly intended to crash if someone doesnt give him the corner! he would have never made that corner, he made it extremely clear that if someone doesnt concede a corner, he will not hesitate to crash and play russian roulette! his gun is always fully loaded… almost all his races are like this, he is in front or he is behind his response is always ” i didnt do nothing wrong, if i did, i would be penalized” this stupid argument is the result of FIA encouraging the mindless driving win at all costs like his!

          1. @mysticone
            Why are you copying a link to the incident, I’ve seen it obviously. And as well, my position is that think the penalty is fair enough.

            It’s ridiculous Hamilton fans like yourself, who cannot even compose sentences or use grammar properly, who are bringing this sport down. You ought to be embarrassed, spreading lies such as this being a deliberate crash.

          2. @mysticus exactly, this is russian roulette with one driver having a loaded gun…

          3. @Neutralino

            since you understood everything i wrote, i consider your grammar cop mumbo jumbo to be bs. people like you are the ones bringing embarrassment to themselves by arguing grammar rather than points raised! which part is a lie?

            he has always been beyond aggressively defending positions regardless of his track position, and people were avoiding him like a plague until silverstone. now his back is hurt, he is out to drive even more dirty by deliberately crashing all thanx to FIA who never really penalized him in the right manner. all this light hand warnings and the minimal penalties he received made him think his driving is actually ok when everyone on the paddock disagreed! I for once thought he was getting better, but now he is driving like a madman without limits (all thanx to FIA for enabling him). It is turning into dirty Schumi era… I m sure MAX FANS like yourself are pretty fine with such driving as long as MAX is the one not loosing anything out of the incidents…

          4. @mysticus
            Keep lying, I don’t see why you’d argue that this crash was deliberate unless you have an ulterior motive.
            It’s clear that you’re a rabid Hamilton fan, and that’s fine. What isn’t fine is defaming other drivers.
            Drivers, being professionals, should be given the benefit of the doubt that they aren’t out to crash deliberately.
            Oh and by the way, I’m not a Max fan, so think again.
            Mate you can’t even spell (it’s losing not ‘loosing’), so how are you meant to think clearly and rationally about a complicated incident? It’s evident that you don’t have the mental capacity to do so.

        2. Consider that Horner basically accused Hamilton of being an irresponsible homicidal maniac in Silverstone.

          That caused a great deal of outrage focused at Hamilton, because Horner was basically trying to try the case in the court of public opinion, rather than at the FIA.

          1. Indeed. In this instance if it was not for the halo, Hamilton would be dead… Where is Christians moral comments? If Hamilton goes collides with verstappen, apparently Hamilton should have backed off and is dangerous for not doing so. If verstappen collides with Hamilton then simplymracing and Hamilton should have backed off. Basically if verstappen wants to overtake you or you want to overtake verstappen then you as verstappen has the God given right to be in front no matter what…

      4. It was the other way around at silverstone, both drivers want to continue and want to win points
        Imo hamilton got a blue flag that says fast drivers are coming..and cant brake so fast to let room for the one coming out the pit
        Anyway it will keep tough racing to the end

      5. ver has Never Been a Gentleman.

        Spoilt and Arrogant actually

    2. Max didn’t check on Lewis

      Who was busy trying to exit on reverse and very obviously OK

      1. So the car didn’t drop on his head again, perhaps?!

        1. The wheel was in front of him at that point.

          1. If you’d just had an F1 car on your head would you:

            A. Stay where you are; or
            B. Try to move away?

            Answers on a postcard…

      2. Damon Hill had it right. You can also tell that Christian is not fully on Max’s side. This was again a step too far…

        1. No he didn’t. He implied that Verstappen crashed deliberately. Hill’s biases have always been extremely clear, which is why his ‘punditry’ is scantly used. Even Sky knows his takes are persistently bad ones.

          1. No, Damon said that Max chose to not back out– and he questioned Max’s reasons for that, one of which is conceivably, if somewhat terrifying, that Max would rather crash Hamilton off the track than allow him to win.

          2. i think we claim “deliberate” crashes too easily. schumacher may have done a few. senna too. but many times, and in this case, max is guilty of “Wishful” thinking, and maybe some anger where he allowed a high chance of contact because he was seeing red. nobody crashes JUST to crash…..or very rarely.

          3. Verstappen seemed intent on contact with Hamilton when every sane driver in that lost position cut the corner instead. Why was that?

            Also add that Verstappen claims he should have been given space. When he also ran Hamilton off on lap 1 yet again.

            How does he do the mental gymnastics to make this make sense in his own head?

    3. He walked around the bavk of the cars to check and then left. What should he have done then, congratulate him for (in max’ view) turning into him and causing them to crash?

    4. Those comments still baffle me somewhat as I get the impression he wanted to take some moral highground that wasn’t there. There’s plenty of radio evidence to show Hamilton asked if Max was okay and he was told he walked out of the car, there for not seriously injured. Going to hospital for check ups means very little.
      We notice very quickly those insistent of blaming Hamilton for everything for some reason very quickly reason Max was morally right to walk away as “the engine was revving on Hamilton’s car, there for he was clearly alright” which is meaningless as for all he knew Hamilton could have been unconscious with his foot pinning the throttle.

      1. max didn’t even look as he left ; too embarrased at his stupidity

  5. A bit harsh but so was the penalty for Hamilton at Silverstone.

    1. Agreed. A reasonable, balanced comment. I think today I couldve accepted an outcome of racing incident or a penalty for Max. Maybe a little harsh that he did get a penalty but it was harsh on Lewis at Silverstone.
      My issue is that Max REFUSES to yield in any situation. This approach is costing him vital points in the championship. He should be out of sight now and his stubborn approach has contributed massively to him only being 5 points ahead. There will be more incidents between Lewis and Max this season, no doubt.

      1. @deanr
        The thing is that I don’t think this cost Verstappen any points today. The Mercedes was clearly quicker, plus Hamilton would’ve had the benefit of being on the mediums for the final stint, rather than the hards on Verstappen.

        1. Silverstone did, big time. And it will cost him in Russia.

          1. @deanr
            It remains to be seen what the cost will be in Russia, if anything.
            And I think the Silverstone incident has been done to death, which was more Hamilton’s fault, and was an incident that Hamilton was extremely lucky to emerge unscathed from.

          2. Don’t you think Max gets a new engine there…… so a 10 drop or 13 drop doesn’t matter much for Max.

            But i think those curbs must be adressed as those made Max fly up on the rear and with that movement the both rear did the rest. Otherwise Both would contine.

            I found it strange Lewis tried to reverse to contine to race i would think he would to exit as fast as possible..

        2. They probably would followed Norris around the whole race

        3. I think he did it partially on purpose. He had no chance if had had not taken Hamilton at that corner so took him out. He had zero chance of making the corner. He was practically off the track before turn two!

      2. I think the reason Max is only 5 points ahead is because Lewis took him out at silverstone benefitting from full points. Max was leading the championship ahead of Silverstone so clawing back those lost points to go five ahead now shows he’s got a better car and won’t back down to the desperate tactics Mercedes are playing.

      3. The one that should be out of sight is HAM.

        Let’s say VER only lost points at Silverstone, by not giving up the 1st lap fight with HAM and settling for 2nd. That’s 18 pts lost. That’s about it. Russia? RB expect them to lose out to Merc/Max may end up taking an engine penalty anyway which they will have to take eventually. Baku & Hungary was no fault of his own/out of own control.

        HAM? Let’s see – Monaco off weekend (finished 7th – car capable of finishing 2nd as per Bottas’ performance), thats 12 pts lost. Baku 25 pts lost. Austria lost 6 pts (damaged own car running over kerb – car capable of 2nd as Bottas finished there).

        Monza lost 9 pts – should have been a cakewalk for HAM in both sprint & race (should have finished 1st in both with VER finishing 3rd in sprint behind Bottas and 2nd in race (due to Bottas’ engine penalty), so HAM should have gotten 28 pts to VER’s 19 pts.

        So total points lost:

        VER: 18 pts – so should be 244.5 pts now
        HAM: 52(!) pts – so should be 273.5 pts now

        +33 pts advantage to HAM.

        This is similar to Vettel’s level of performance in 2017/18 for HAM if we’re being honest. Let’s not kid ourselves. HAM should leading comfortably.

        1. *Correction:

          VER: 37 pts (corrected for Monza pts lost) – so should be 263.5 pts now
          HAM: 71(!) pts (corrected for Monza pts lost) – so should be 292.5 pts now

          +29 pts advantage to HAM.


          1. Verstappen should have won Baku, Silverstone, Hungary and Monza. Boom almost 100 points that he should have had in the pocket!

        2. You’re Nadia Comaneci on the keyboard because this is some kind of mental gymnastics. Lists all of the times Hamilton lost points then all of the Verstappen ones are “out of his control”

        3. Verstappen only lost 18?!? You’re not serious right? 25 at Baku, 18 minimum at Silverstone, 17 minimum at Hungary. That’s 60 – all through no fault of his own. All of Hamilton’s lost points you’ve listed were all his own fault except Monza. He’s also gained 16 through luck at Imola. So I’m seriously struggling to comprehend your thought process here.

      4. I think the quote from the circuit that perfectly shows that Max expects people to “let him pass” was from F1 Race Director Michael Masi who told Sky F1: “The stewards assessment was that Lewis effectively had the corner, and the other element of it was that Max had other options where as we saw at numerous occasions today, drivers in similar types of scenarios took to the bumps beyond Turn 2 and re-joined the track.”

        He had other options …… but expected Lewis to concede the corner to him. Max is a brilliant driver, but if he doesn’t temper his arrogance, he will never be a great.

      5. You are exactly correct.

        At the beginning of the season, when Max said I’m going to look at the long game & make decisions accordingly, what did you think he was talking about. Answer: incidents just like this where you try a bump pass on purpose. Which is to say, a bump pass is totally unreasonable in a Formula 1 car and contrary it is not something any F1 driver deserves.

        Here’s an Idea, turn left cut the track like a normal human!

    2. It isn’t harsh, he could have got a 5 place for deliberately causing an accident. Every other driver in a similar situation, some even with more claim to the corner, bailed out of the move, only Max who wanted to make a 90 degree turn at speed.

      1. Yes the penalty is Too Soft.

        He goes into Impossible Spaces knowing that if it’s against Lewis, the Stewards will be lenient on him

      2. Exactly, Ricciardo in the sprint race was actually ahead of Verstappen going into turn 1. As was Hamilton fully alongside going into turn 4.

    3. 25 points to Hamilton, that was really harsh…

  6. I think this is very heavily punished. But it is what it is.

    1. Why? Even if you argue that the overtake attempt wasn’t malicious it was RECKLESS and he taken out his nearest rival in the WDC.

      If there is no punishment all max needs to do when lew is next to him is wreck him and go on to win the WDC..

      1. I think it was a situation where both could have done more to avoid this. Max got pushed on the kerb where Lewis could have done the same as in lap 1 with Norris. And Max was a bit optimistic to assume Lewis would give more room.

        And if you compare this with Silverstone I think the penalty is way too high.

        1. This is less of a penalty than Silverstone! Could max not have backed off at Silverstone? In todays incident Hamilton gave room for turn 1, max.went in far too hot and almost went off track! Look at turn 4 on lap one. Did max.give Hamilton any room at all? Did hamilton decide to back off to avoid a crash?

          1. Max couldn’t back off as he was the one in front in Silverstone (noone does that) that works only if they are next to each other and there is room to backoff.

            Here things went to fast as Max had the temp in his tyres but Lewis didn’t Max thought he could take him to drag Lewis after turn 1. Now i understand Max comment as both would be in turn 1 Lewis that better position but Max outdrag lewis.

          2. There is a reason why this incident is similar to Silverstone. Verstappen is on the outside, and rather than yield he still continues on. At silverstone he was just slightly level when he decided to carry more speed.
            Here is coming from behind and still wanted to take more speed on the outside and claim the corner.

          3. @macleod. So no one backs off… Are you sure about that? Did you watch turn 4 on the first lap? Max clearly left zero room for Hamilton and so Hamilton backed out of the move and went across the corner to avoid a collision. At Silverstone Max was ever so slightly ahead going in to the corner on the outside! He then came across to take a fairly normal racing line and Hamiltons car slightly slid out. They collided. Hamilton could have backed off quicker (He was backing off already before the contact) and Max could have took a wider line (He easily had over a cars width on his left). But in your mind it is okay for the lead driver to not back off at all… Okay so lets look at Monza. Hamilton lead into the corner, Max braked far too late to make the corner properly. Lewis gave plenty of room at turn 1 to avoid a crash. Max could have at that point took the escape road or took his car over the bumps as many other drivers did. He did not want to back off though so tried to stay on the track. By doing this his car was practically at a right angle to Hamiltons coming out of the corner. Hamilton was at the far right side of the track so could not have been further over. Max would have hit him no matter what but unfortunately was flung into the air which made the crash far worse. At no point was Max ahead of Hamilton through the corner and the only reason he was even alongside was because he was braked too late. So given that Max was behind and lewis was ahead, should max have backed off (Given that in your opinion no one backs off if they are the lead driver into a corner?) I remind you that Hamilton backed off considerably in at turn 1 and 2 but still could not avoid max hitting him.

            The only chance Max had of making the corner was to hope that Hamilton stopped and let him through (Something Max believes every driver should do for him).

            It seems that it is okay for max to never give in and bully his way through but it is not okay for any other drivers (Especially Hamilton) to do the same.

  7. Tit for tat. Move on to the next race boys

    1. You mean the predominantly part I guess.

  8. As much as I feel this was a racing incident and as a Verstappen fan, I accept the Stewards decision…

    1. Me too. Max was slightly optimistic here and again overestimating Lewis

      1. @Mayrton More like underestimating.

        1. Underestimating his stupidity or overestimating his skill level

  9. Surprised, as I had it down as a pure racing incident, but can understand the reasoning.

    Neither driver would have done what they did had they been up against someone other than their title rival, but I guess Verstappen had a better view and more opportunity to avoid.

    1. @neilosjames I agree. Yours is one of few objective, sensible comments I’ve seen this evening.

      Racing incident from where I was sitting. Max went for a move that didn’t quite come off, because he got firm but fair resistance.

      I hate to sound like one of these people shrieking about health and safety (because I want the sport to protect the competitors as best it can) but this sport comes with risks. This kinda thing is what we watch for. Two top level guys going wheel to wheel and sometimes crashing.

      Glad everyone’s safe and well.

    2. A bit disappointed by this decision, but it is what it is.

    3. @neilosjames

      Paul Di Resta’s (who in my opinion is one of the more balanced analysts on Sky) frame by frame analysis of the crash was very good. He did say it’s a difficult one to apportion blame on either one of them, but he did say Max was within his rights to go the for gap. He called it a racing incident, which is what the appears to be.

      The accident was exacerbated by the oscillations induced by Max hitting the sausage kerbs.

      But hey, where’s the fun if you cant be outraged at something!

      1. Paul de Resta, is a Verstappen fan boy, I wouldn’t listen to his analysis when Verstappen is involved.

      2. If Paul made those comments, then he should print it on his shirt so he doesn’t contradict himself when he accusses another driver of being in the wrong.
        He saw other drivers who were even level with the car they were side by side with yet bailing out, but he give a driver who was always behind and only got close because he refused to brake for the corner as being in the right? Come on Paul. Max was going too fast and badly positioned for the next corner.

    4. Neil, thank you for being reasonable.

  10. Crying Horner incoming…

    1. Max is a fantastic driver but Whinger Spice and his boss really spoil things.

    2. @ben judging by his interviews he knows max was at fault otherwise he would be calling for Lewis head if he thought Lewis was at fault

    3. Taking a penalty at Sochi isn’t so bad. How many times have we seen the pole sitter get slip streamed and passed into turn one? That’s a long start finish straight.

  11. Exactly the penalty one would expect for something like this, but you never know until they actually hand it out.

    1. RandomMallard (@)
      12th September 2021, 17:55

      @f1osaurus For once, [gulp] I… I… I agree with you! Worth penalising, relatively lenient penalty for a pretty minor incident hugely exacerbated by the placement of the sausage kerb

      1. @randommallard It’s shocking that you finally see the light yes :)

    2. Lewis had his front left wheel less than a meter away from the white line on the apex of the second corner. He left no space for Max. He ran into him. Look at the footage how close his FL wheel was near the apex. This is dumb.

      1. Hamilton didn’t need to leave space. That’s what that car 33 did not have ‘the right to racing room’ means.

        1. Oh BYW, did you see lap 1? Did Verstappen leave space for Hamilton?

          1. Ham locked up his cold hard tire.
            Some f1 knowledge would help.

          2. @f1osaurus

            ham always lock up or cold tyres/brakes or have no right any corner… pretty good argument for max fans, never fails…

            max the boy who has the right of way for every corner and straight in any f1 race, regardless of his track position… its his god given birth right!

          3. @erikje

            I did not remember the lock up by Lewis into turn 4 so I re-watched it. And you are wrong neither Max or Lewis locked up going in to or during corner 4 on lap 1. Max simply took the racing line and left zero room for Hamilton who was fully alongside him at the time.

      2. dude. be fair. max had no right to that apex. he dove in there. he was never making that corner. it was a move that could only work by scaring the other driver off their deserved racing line. he was heading straight to the gravel pit at speed. be reasonable.

        1. Exactly. It was a torpedo he was steering. The more Iook at his actions the more I believe it was deliberate, a Vettel moment like in Baku. Now I can understand what Hamilton meant when he said Max knew what was going to happen there.

          1. I know right. He just kept on pushing till he crashed into Hamilton. Just like he kept weaving in Baku until Ricciardo ended up in the back of his car.

  12. RandomMallard (@)
    12th September 2021, 17:54

    Yeah I think this is probably fair enough. Most detailed stewards report I’ve seen in a while I have to say. It’s probably just about worth penalising (especially as they penalised Hamilton in Silverstone), and 3 places is pretty much the most lenient they can give. 2 points as well seems fair. And good of them to note that they’re just looking at the cause of the incident, not the consequences because the main factor at fault for the consequences was a poorly positioned sausage kerb.

    Will be interesting to see if Max takes a new PU with the hit at Sochi, instead of having to take further penalties later down the line.

  13. An safe call for the stewards. Verstappen is seen to get a slap on the wrist and RB can just swap his engine out and start from the back anyway, which was likely to happen all along.

    So it doesn’t really change anything.

    1. @squeakywheel i m not 100% sure, but there was some rule changes that if too many penalties applied in one race and it doesnt represent penalties given, it can be added to race after… (there were discussions and talks about this due to engine/parts etc penalties occured all in one race and accumulate like 20-30 place grid drops (like anything more than 20 makes sense at all, so they were gonna introduce extra penalties next race to avoid people abusing the grid penalty situations… and i hope they apply this as it makes no sense to hand grid penalty at all)

      1. That would be logical wouldn’t it? It’s been abused for years. I don’t think it’s been fixed though. How many grid penalties did Bottas have for this race?

        It does feel like engine penalties and disciplinary penalties should be separate, so a penalty for dangerous driving has to be served separately perhaps?

  14. I can’t really agree with the penalty, although i can understand the thinking of the stewards.

    An 11 second stop for Verstappen, a 4.5 for Hamilton, this accident was meant to happen

    1. Nothing to do with pitstops. Verstappen crashed needlessly into Hamilton.

      1. And Hamilton crashed needlessly into Verstappen at Silverstone…

        1. And they’ve both been penalised. Great, now into the next race.

          1. The greatest reply sequence ever lol

        2. Hamilton backed out on a similar corner on 1st lap and lost a place!!
          At Silverstone Hamilton caused it at 300kph and Verstappen at 50kph.

        3. Max crashed into Ham on both occasions.

          Each time he claims, not enough space was left

    2. The evil Toto and Christian perfectly (mis)timed those pitstops so Lewis and Max could come together!!

      Unfortunately Red Bull really screwed Max over with that pitstop, he should have been nowhere near Lewis.

  15. I might not agree with the specific decision but Verstappen needs to rethink his approach and the space he (doesn’t) leave to his opponents at times

    1. @miltosgreekfan I think he’s made it clear by now that he never will rethink his approach. His sense of entitlement to any corner is absolute. Only, perhaps, if he’s hurt by losing a championship for some such incident.

      1. @david-br Yeah, i thought he had improved a bit at this aspect but recently this year he has been pushing his luck in multiple occasions with the limited space he leaves(Imola,Spain, today at the start etc).

        1. i was so ready to accept max has become a mature driver, and I would start to work on my slight dislike of him. But, he has gone back to his old games. It is a shame. He has so much talent and doesn’t need to race like that. he has pace, he has car control, but this aggressive attitude is something i could never get behind – with him or senna or schumacher

          1. The ridiculous thing is that if Max had taken the corner normally and slotted in behind Hamilton he would likely have had better traction on warmer tyres and taken Hamilton on the long drag to the next Chicane.

    2. @miltosgreekfan why? Why should he change? F1 would marry him if they could. He’s been driving like that since the beginning and thinks everyone else is at fault. People actually like him for it. Then again, so many people loved Hitler, Hussein, and Charles Manson…. Those people also believe they are paragons of reason.

    3. I’m sure he would have backed out if it was Norris instead of Hamilton. He takes these risks because he knows he is ahead of Hamilton and if they are both out, it doesn’t really matter.

      Hamilton is the same, he would have probably done the same thing Verstappen did if the roles were reversed. To be fair, I’d say most drivers would in this type of situation where they are fighting for the championship.

  16. I don’t know, was probably a 55-45% blame for verstappen, so could’ve gone ahead as racing incident, in any case there’s plenty of grid penalties they can give and they picked the lowest (next would’ve been 5), while for hamilton in silverstone they picked the 2nd lowest (10 sec instead of 5) and the highest they could give that still allowed him to win.

    A 3 place grid penalty can or cannot give issues depending on the situation.

    1. @esploratore1 Would Verstappen have made that corner if he hadn’t crashed into Hamilton? He was aiming towards a 90 degree angle to the track. So how does the whole “he would never have made the corner so it was an assassination attempt” fit in?

      1. At that speed it hardly was a challenge.
        So yes.

        1. No he would not. Simple geometry, he wouldn’t even be able to make that turn anymore with an F1 car turn circle

        2. I doubt it. He was still going pretty fast and pointing in the wrong direction. He would have had to slam the brakes on and hoped it slowed down enough to make the turn.

  17. I can’t say I agree with this. It was for me a racing incident that didn’t warrant any further action.

    When you have 2 drivers pushing each other hard, Fighting for wins, For a championship you are going to see contact every now & again & that is for me just a part of racing. I said that after Silverstone & I feel the same today & will do for all similar racing incidents.

    To me penalties for racing incidents should be a last resort & something that isn’t done unless somebody does something really stupid, intentional or dangerous.

    1. For me it was also a racing incident, but I am now wondering if there isn’t some merit in giving both of them penalties (with a slightly harsher one for Max).

      Ultimately they both had some blame and as we saw it could have been very dangerous. Or at least the next one(s) could be.

      I doubt this was the last incident between them this year.

    2. @stefmeister I think Max’s wheel bouncing on Lewis’s helmet counts as ‘dangerous.’ Was it reckless on Verstappen’s part? Slightly, yes, he knew he’d lost the corner and kept going anyway.

    3. I agree 100%. This is racing! Could Hamilton have given more room? Yes. Could Verstappen have backed off? Yes.
      I wonder what the outcome would have been if there were no sausage curb?

  18. I despise hamilton for what he did at silverstone, however I can’t consider this too harsh, if they were gonna give any penalty to verstappen they took the most lenient, hamilton got the 2nd most lenient at silverstone.

    1. Don’t forget that at Silverstone, a drive through is more lenient than a 5 second penalty as you avoid the last corners – he got the third most lenient penalty

      1. Mmm, hadn’t considered this, are you sure? Seems very low time lost for a drive through, you go very slow in the pit lane.

        1. RandomMallard (@)
          12th September 2021, 18:04

          @esploratore1 I’m not 100% certain, but I think they might have lowered the pit lane speed limit at Silverstone to offset this scenario

        2. I was sure, but I’ve just checked the lap times & pit stop times for that race and it seems that a drive through would have been a 6 second penalty – so I was wrong!

  19. Anyway, time for bed. You’ve got school tomorrow and we don’t want you all grumpy…

  20. Good. Max should be punished, he races on the wrong side of ‘hard but fair’, and doesn’t have enough respect for other drivers.

    1. short and sweet. exactly.

    2. That racist Crashtappen won’t learn a thing, he has used racist term to describe steward to media outlet who penalised him for gaining advantage by going off the race track .

  21. I don’t agree, but I understand why. Unfortunate that Verstappen’s taking a harder loss for this collision than Hamilton took in Britain, though. I suppose Red Bull will engine change, they have nothing left to lose in Sochi.

    1. RandomMallard (@)
      12th September 2021, 18:02

      @rocketpanda I don’t think we can necessarily say it’s harder loss than Hamilton at Silverstone. He could still win in Sochi despite the penalty (although it would be a tough ask). I’d wait until then to give that judgement

      1. That is in two races. In the predominantly case of Lewis it was in 1 race.
        So not comparable.

    2. @rocketpanda How is 24m a harder penalty than 10s on track?

      1. I’d bet more on stretching a 10s gap in clear air from pole over being stuck behind Hamilton, Bottas and random other driver and trying to overtake a reasonably equally powerful car at Sochi of all places.

  22. I should penalize the FIA for allowing such kerb positioning.

    1. RandomMallard (@)
      12th September 2021, 18:02


    2. Agree. What’s the point of these curbs anyway?

      1. To flatter an even more pointless chicane existence.

      2. @rvg013 To make sure that drivers yield when the overtake is lost. With 19 out of 20 drivers that works.

  23. Whoever insisted on putting the halo on F1 cars can sleep soundly tonight knowing they made a difference.

    Also, in my opinion it was a racing incident and no penalty was required, same as Silverstone.

    1. I absolutely agree.

      Without a doubt, Hamilton would have been in serious problems without the halo today…

      1. Don’t want to sound too dramatic but I think he could have died today without the halo.

        1. AJ (@asleepatthewheel)
          12th September 2021, 18:57

          @macaque A complete spinal cord transection and a permanent vegetative state was on the cards today

  24. member when we just had racing incidents….. i member

  25. Stewarding has been inconsistent for a long time now.

    1. @maxv What was inconsistent about this? This is exactly the penalty you’d expect.

      Maybe a 5 place grid drop if they had had seen the intent in Verstappen’s persistent pushing long after the position was lost instead of cutting the corner (as every sane driver did in that same situation), but that’s hard to prove so it makes sense they didn’t go there.

  26. Fair reasoning by the stewards. The move was really late.. He was not in front of Lewis at any point or even exactly alongside him in turn 1. He was on the kerbs and behind the driver he was trying to overtake.
    Max and Red bull need to just accept this mistake and move on instead of whining.

  27. RandomMallard (@)
    12th September 2021, 18:00

    @sylversurferr I’m not what one would call a Hamilton fan, but this is extremely far fetched.


    First they let him go unharmed and win race where he ram his opponent to wall at 270+kmh

    He was given a penalty, served it, and won the race. All fair. Max could still win at Sochi despite the penalty. Again, would be fair and square. Also by saying going “unharmed” it sounds like you wish he got given a good beating. I know you call them the maFIA, but they aren’t the actual Mafia.


    then they punish harsh

    Nope, this is pretty much the most lenient penalty they could have given. And is probably the right decision

    1. Ahaha, fun the beating thing!

  28. Verstappen will most likely change his engine at Sochi now, which will make the pain a bit less. Starting from the back of the grid anyway.

    1. @jesperfey13 A three-place drop alone means P4 at the highest, but yes, I can also foresee RB using this small opportunity for the inevitable PU component penalties.

    2. Yes, a 3 place grid penalty can potentially cost even 1 position or 0 eventually, but since they’re fighting at the front and mercedes probably has the upper hand, there’s already 7 points lost, so it could certainly be worth looking into that, I especially think taking an engine penalty is better on a track you’re not strong at, you can more easily do damage limitation overtaking midfield cars than fight for the win without penalty.

    3. I wonder if Mercedes might be thinking the same for Hamilton. If Sochi is good for them maybe minimize the loss to verstappen since he’ll have a penalty?

      1. @dmw They should avoid taking a penalty for the same race as this way Hamilton would have an open opportunity for retaking WDC lead.

    4. The penalty means nothing, sadly. He’ll go to the back anyway, it’s a grid penalty, it essentially means nothing.


      1. So a fair penalty then – no effect just like Hamilton’s at Silverstone.

  29. Is this a joke, it was a racing incident.

  30. -Aggressive Max forced Lewis into evasive action on the first lap
    -Lewis made a fair clean overtake on Lando(clueless race director missed this..)
    -Max crashes into Lewis when he launched himself driving over the sausage kerbs.
    But somehow Lewis is the aggressive unfair driver that leaves no space max??

    Spice boy and helmet need to stop the love fest for wunderkind and force him to be a more fair and less of a full aggression never-yield driver because he is going to get himself or another driver killed one day.

  31. Clearly a decision made to spice up the championship. Extraordinarily inconsistent stewarding, as usual.

  32. The right call, although I would’ve been okay with classing this one as a racing incident.

    1. @jerejj But then only if they had called Silverstone a racing incident too.

  33. I would have called it a racing incident and maybe reprimanded both of them so maybe put a stop to this escalating war. One time a guy went into the wall at 54gs. This time Hamilton almost got his wig split. They both need a chat. Not beciase both are being reckless but because we all need them to be both alive.

  34. How about you have to give the other driver one car length of space in case the other car’s front wing is at least alongside your rear wheel?

    Hamilton should have squeezed Verstappen earlier in the corner or should have given him space. Hamilton would have accelerated much better and would have overtaken Verstappen had he given the Dutch enough space.

  35. ‘Twas ever thus, and a slap on the wrist in my opinion. max has a penchant of showing his hand on the table too soon, and now the whole grid grid will know how to play him in the future.Just like Jos, all hat no cattle into every encounter. Max is rattled

  36. I had predicted either racing incident or Max slightly to blame. That I saw predominantly to blame was a surprise to me, but acceptable after reading the stewards judgement.

    This proves once again that it is a thing, as LH has proved numerous times and as Max has taken a page from, that you can lead going into a corner and if someone is beside you have to leave then room, but that obligation diminishes as the corner action goes along. The hard racing part becomes for the lead driver stamping his authority by in essence saying back off, go off, or hit me. In this case Max didn’t back off, he went off and got unsettled by the sausage kerb and hit LH. That’s the risk the lead driver takes too, when forcing the trailing driver’s hand by taking the real estate he does in these situations. Max has forced LH’s hand numerous times this year and LH has more often taken the decision to go off or back off, but of course not always.

    1. @robbie Slightly and predominantly are basically the same thing in this context.

      I agree with your analysis, but there’s a key difference between outside and inside: Verstappen could ‘afford’ to keep insisting when he’s on the inside to the second corner as any contact is certain to be prejudicial to Lewis (too) while insisting on an overtake on the outside is more likely just to see you shunted off track. It was why a race-ending collision for both already loomed in my mind as they approached the corner.

  37. I still think racing incident, but someone needs to have a word with Max that you can’t moan about a driver not leaving space, but then do the same yourself. Unfortunately he’s surrounded himself with people telling him he can do wrong.

  38. About fair enough.
    Just amazes that F1’s penalties, deliberately designed not to take consequences into account, lead to a grid penalty here, and to a win for Hamilton in Silverstone. Just not fair on balance.

    1. @hahostolze true. There were other drivers in the race at Silverstone though, the win wasn’t guarenteed until Leclerc had his issue. I guess it depends on how much of an effect a 3-place grid penalty really is, who knows it might mean he avoids a Bottas type ten pin bowling collision that Max subsequently avoids. We just don’t know.

    2. Max cost Lewis a shot at a win today. No question. Vice versa at Silverstone, although Hamilton also looked to have a good chance to win at Silverstone if they hadn’t collided. Difference is Max also took himself out today. How do you balance that with penalties?

      1. Oh I’m not saying I have an answer. I’m a lawyer by trade – I know laws and consequences need to be level across the board. But that doesn’t always lead to individual justice, even if it does to collective justice.

        1. Thus the axiom among us: hard cases make bad law. Trying to chase justice by revising the rule for a particular incident can go wrong. That’s why I don’t like the factor in consequences idea. Especially as it involves seeing the future; it can’t even be usefully implemented.

          1. @dmw absolutely.
            Then again: what if this season is decided by Silverstone?

    3. @hahostolze Which is worse in F1 – losing 10s or 24m?

  39. This incident looked a bit more Hamilton’s fault to me. Verstappen was far enough along side Hamilton to have a right to be there and Hamilton didn’t give him quite enough space. However, in the wider context, Verstappen has a history of running drivers wide at the exit of corners, just like lap one, so I don’t have a problem with penalizing Verstappen.

    1. Did you read the Stewards verdict and your “Alongside” thing.
      Verstappen was still behind Hamilton when they turned in but accelerated into a closed position.
      His front wheel was always behind Hamilton’s.
      The stewards have worsened people’s perception of these kind of incidents because they usually forget that a driver who has already made his corner entry ahead is committed to his line and a car coming from behind has to take that into consideration. They have penalised so many drivers wrongly in the past and may yet continue to do so.

      1. No, I didn’t read the stewards verdict. I can clearly see it on the video.

        1. Wow, you should really read it and learn.

          1. So now you accept the stewards..
            Interesting, double standards I see :)

    2. Time to invest in some glasses @sprintcarfan

      The replays don’t lie and Max was no where near along side going into T1.

      Max was at fault.

      1. I’ve watched it again, and he was more than enough alongside regardless of what the stewards say. If his front wheel was even with Hamilton’s rear, then sure, he’s not entitled to be there. His front wheel was nearly even with Hamilton’s front wheel. Verstappen can’t disappear when in that position, and if he can’t put himself in that position in the first place without getting a penalty, then all overtaking apparently now needs to be done in the braking zone. That is not how racing works, or has ever worked. The stewards levied that penalty at Verstappen as a precedent because when the boot’s on the other foot, Verstappen won’t leave enough room, like lap 1 with Hamilton and countless other instances.

    3. @sprintcarfan

      By that same logic, you think Max was to blame for pushing Hamilton wide at the 2nd chicane on L1?

  40. Ridiculous penalty.
    This vocational shooter has to be stripped of his license and thrown out of Formula 1.
    He is the worst driver in the history of Formula 1 from a sporting point of view.

    1. Are you talking about Mazepin @jorge-lardone because he was penalised during the race from what I remember?

      1. Interesting BTW, he was penalised for causing a collision but did not hit a car but the foam board.
        Never seen before

        1. If the stewards did that then its a joke because other drivers who lose control of their cars have hit it years before.

        2. He did collide with Schumacher, just the director showed the wrong incident on the replay when Mazepin was given his penalty.

          1. Ah, it already sounded strange

      2. Brilliant! Ex dee

    2. Are you talking about VER? I agree.

    3. You mean Hamilton? I agree. Or did you mean Alonso? You seem to have a vendatta with some drivers.

      1. Pot – kettle- black

  41. Where did these stewards get this (apparent) citation from that references ‘the right to racing room’. The phrase does not occur even once in either the F1 sporting regulations, or in the FIA code of conduct for circuit racing.

    1. Racing room AKA a car’s width.

    2. @cashnotclass That’s in the stewards guidelines for overtaking. These are not publicized, but from drivers, stewards and team bosses talking about incidents over the years we’ve gotten a decent picture of what’s in it.

      An overtaking driver on the inside of the corner needs to be halfway alongside while an overtaking driver on the outside needs to be fully alongside. If they are then the defending drivers needs to leave them space, if not then they need to yield and the defending driver will take the racing line.

      That’s how drivers “legally” keep running each other off track.

      1. @f1osaurus Article 16.1 of the F1 sporting regulations does indeed state that ‘the stewards or Race Director may give instructions to Competitors by means of special circulars’ but stipulates that these must be ‘in accordance with the Code. They are not allowed to randomly make stuff up about how drivers should behave, as the Code has a special appendix that governs the driving conduct during circuit races.

        Anyway, one of the problems is that the FIA somewhat recently put into the F1 Sporting Regulations the provision that there will be no penalties ‘unless it is clear to the stewards that a driver was wholly or predominantly to blame.’ This no doubt as part of their “let them race” stance. However, there are of course quite a few incidents on race tracks where both parties acted in a clumsy, or deliberately stubborn, manner which then resulted in an entirely preventable collision.

        The stewards like to say they judge each incident independently of anything else, but that’s not necessarily a good thing. Here F1 has two drivers who seem determined not to give each other an inch, while they show themselves to be capable of doing that without problems with other drivers, even in the same race. There’d be nothing wrong with the FIA setting Hamilton and Verstappen aside and making sure they both clean up their act.

        1. @cashnotclass This has nothing to do with directors notes. This has to do with the way the stewards are supposed to rule on incidents. They have guidelines for doing this so they all judge it similarly. Why they keep these guidelines hidden is beyond me, but they do.

          The drivers know them, the team bosses do and they do state parts of it. In this case they actually incorporated some of them into the document.

  42. Difficult one to judge but in my opinion, just a racing incident. Both suffered as a result and neither gained an advantage from the crash, so just let it be and move on to Russia. Irrespective of who you think is to blame, the curious thing in my humble view is the how the stewards reached a decision on the penalty to be applied.

    At Silverstone, we saw an incident where ‘the driver of car 44 was judged predominantly at fault’ ie Lewis Hamilton. The consequences of the crash there were that:
    a) Verstappen retired and scored no points.
    b) Verstappen’s engine was destroyed in the crash, ensuring he takes a 10-place grid penalty later in the year.
    c) The consequential red flag allowed Mercedes to repair race-ending damage to Hamilton’s car.
    d) The 5-second time penalty had no influence on Hamilton’s finishing position, and he took 26 points out of his championship rival. Hamilton carried no penalty into the next Grand Prix.

    Today we saw an incident where ‘the driver of car 33 was judged predominantly at fault’ ie Max Verstappen.
    The consequence of this is a grid penalty that will directly influence the outcome of the next race, plus penalty points on the driver’s licence.

    I can’t see the consistency and the fairness really in the decision reached by the stewards. If Hamilton suffered no penalty and actually benefitted from an impact he was judged to have caused, then Verstappen should not suffer for an impact from which he didn’t benefit at all.

    It is what it is though, let’s just see what Sochi brings.

    1. Other drivers who could not serve penalties at the race the infraction took place have had it transfered to the next race nothing new there.
      Speaking of the Silverstone incident, Max did the same thing here but this time he was the driver coming from behind.
      Unwillingness to yield from a position that is essentially lost or never was going to be.

    2. A lot of your a-d were not known or foreseeable at the time of the incident. Sonia doesn’t make sense to use those as factors that should have been weighed. Stewards don’t have a tardis.

    3. “Fairness” is an abstract concept based on people beliefs and perceptions. “Fairness,” in all instances, should be derived from a set of rules and based on the incident in question only , not on the outcome of the incident nor any previous incidents. This is what happened today AND at Silverstone

    4. @anthonyfrench That’s not how it works. Besides, Verstappen knows this when he goes into Hamilton after failing the attacking. The sane thing to do would have been to cut the corner. Just like Hamilton did on lap 1 when Verstappen didn’t leave Hamilton any space.

      1. @f1osaurus Of course, everyone will have different opinions on it like other incidents from the past. Personally I don’t like and don’t agree with being able to run your rival off the track if they have any part of their car alongside but it seems to be an acceptable part of the sport these days. I think if Hamilton had opened the steering more to run him out wider earlier in the corner as Verstappen did on lap one, Verstappen would have had no choice but to take to the kerbs. By leaving enough of a gap for Verstappen to stay in there, you can understand why he thought he had a chance to go for it and by the time he realised he couldn’t, it was too late to avoid that damned sausage kerb (without which there would likely have been no crash). Its just hard racing at the end of the day and easy to say both should have played it differently but these decisions and movements are made at lightning speed under huge pressure and mistakes unfortunately happen. Main thing is nobody got hurt.

        @DeanR I hear what you’re saying and that makes sense. Stewards have to judge incidents in isolation. I do think however there is an argument that when the championship is at stake, a degree of awareness of how past incidents/penalties have affected the outcome (or not) should be taken when considering things like this. But that’s just my own opinion.

        1. @anthonyfrench

          Personally I don’t like and don’t agree with being able to run your rival off the track

          The thing is the drivers commit to a line when they enter the corner. You can’t expect a defending driver then suddenly to go off the racing line and make space when they are already on the limit. That’s how incidents like Silverstone and Monza happen.

          So that’s why rules exist to explain who has the rights to the racing line. If an attacking driver is not sufficiently enough alongside the attack is deemed to have failed and the attacker should yield the racing line. If the attacker is sufficiently far enough alongside the defending car should leave space.

          The cars that then get pushed off are either bullied by a dirty driver (ie Verstappen in turn 1 of the sprint race on Ricciardo or in the race turn 4 on Hamilton) or the attacking driver failed to yield as he should(ie Rosberg in almost every “attack” on Hamilton and Verstappen in that turn 1 incident)

    5. @anthonyfrench I don’t see why this is so hard to understand.

      In Silverstone Hamilton was still in the race, so he got a time penalty.

      Yesterday Verstappen retired so a time penalty could not be applied. The alternative is a grid penalty. If the event that Verstappen was able to continue he would have got a 10sec time penalty. Masi explained so himself.

    6. Exactly
      Ham at fault at Silverstone
      Max at fault here
      Exactly the same fault on each of them
      Completely different sanctions, balanced very much in the favor of one.

  43. Not a Hamilton fan here at all, but does anyone honestly think this would have happened if it was Alonso, Ricciardo, Norris, Vettel or any of the other top drivers trying this move on Hamilton? No. Verstappen is a Hazzard.

    1. You don’t have to be an Hamilton fan to recognise Verstappen is a desperate and dirty driver unworthy of the mantle of Champion. Today he proved we’ve always known. Hopefully this incident will silence his booing fans.

      A bully of a driver seeing red.

  44. So, a driver at full race speed is now expected to defer to a driver leaving the pits???

    I’ve been watching Grand Prix since 1956 and never have I seen such ridiculous decisions as this year – not just Silverstone and Monza, but complete inconsistency and farce (Spa) all round.

    Total disgrace that the sport is being damaged…

    1. When he’s behind at the braking point then yes of course.

  45. Whatever, still a good result for Max.

  46. I primarily put the blame on the Red Bull pit crew, who through their 11 second pit stop, put Verstappen in a position to have to make such a risky move…. Had everything been normal they would have had him ahead. Not a big Hamilton fan, but Red Bull as a whole have to wear this.

  47. Outrageous. Race direction is a joke, years and years of this. We miss Charlie, in a multitude of ways.

  48. Crazy to say you’re not entitled to space unless alongside well before entering the corner, and therefore fine to push people off even if they are alongside in the corner. Another disaster steward’s ruling.

    1. The point is, you can’t be given space if you come to the corner late.
      What you are asking for is a late ticket buyer replacing someone already on a seat with a valid ticket.
      A driver who is ahead and commited to his racing line can not be expected to make room.
      If they were side by side before the corner entry, then they can expect room.
      Lap one Hamilton was side by side with Verstappen perhaps even just momentarily ahead, but he yielded at the apex.
      Verstappen was behind at the apex and expected room that is ridiculous likewise his perpendicular line.

      1. Lewis may have “entered the corner first” but he was not going even close to as fast as Max. From Max’s POV, he’s racing Lando, and they enter the corner with the exact same delta. It’s Lewis that’s making a slow-merge into the racing line. And Lewis knew Max was there, why would he (or the stewards for that matter) think that Max, carrying more speed, would completely yield the corner without expecting a side-by-side exit?

      2. This is nowhere in the rules and just made up

        1. @balue It’s in the stewards directives. Just as they explained in their verdict

          1. @f1osaurus It literally says “in the opinion of the stewards” so you just made that up that lie.

            Don’t you even care anymore? Just kneejerk left, right and center uncontrollably?

          2. @balue Wow you don’t even understand how the stewards work. You depress me with your never-ending lowering of the bar of stupidity. On the other hand it’s just as much fun as watching especially dumb monkeys in a zoo.

    2. @balue What makes it even more odd is that they mention that Verstappen was so far alongside that they resort to an obscure phrase like ‘just behind the front wheel of car 44′ – which given the length of F1 cars means there were multiple meters along which both Hamilton and Verstappen were indeed side by side.

      As for the second point, the stewards note that Hamilton ’caused’ Verstappen to go unto the kerbs, but shy away from saying he crowded him off track – which is indeed ‘strictly prohibited’. Strictly being a rare addition to the FIA’s rules, but used explicitly in that part of the rules on driver conduct. They don’t explain the difference.

      1. This is exactly it. He was alongside and got crowded off as against the rules, but they have just made up that this doesn’t count if he was not alongside before the corner, which is nowhere in the rules.

    3. You do surprise me Balue! I thought you would have Verstappen at Fault 😂 Still… at least you’re consistent.

      1. @deanr The only consistent thing here is a Hamilton fan going after person and not the argument. It’s one of the universe’s fixed laws. Simple, shool yard bullying that they still think work in the adult world. For some reason Hamilton attracts these types like a magnet. Quite revealing that.

        1. Bravo Balue! Very entertaining 👏

        2. @balue Says the ones going after the stewards personally rather than actually understanding that what they are saying is correct.

          1. @f1osaurus lol, what a desperate non-sensical argument

          2. @balue Agreed, that’s exactly what you always post. Fictional nonsense grasping at straws to excuse the inexcusable, blame shifting the fault to others. Just like Horner/Marko/Verstappen always do.

  49. Fair would have been 5 sec to Max time, right? Like at Silverstone, haha.
    For me, racing incident. Lewis could have left more room, so Max, position was on dispute, neither give a break, both DNFed, good for everyone watching the race.

    1. 10 seconds given at Silverstone

    2. @jpvalverde85 5 seconds time penalty reverts to a 3 place grid drop if it cannot be served in the race.

  50. They are equalizing the points now. Aren’t they?

  51. That’s why he hit Hamilton. It’s better for Verstappen if neither scores points.

    1. This was meant in response to Erik above.

  52. The announcers were discussing today that both Hamilton and Verstappen will need to replace power units soon a la Bottas, so exactly how much of a penalty is this really?

    1. It’s not, sadly.

  53. I’m quite shocked by the consensus of opinion on here. To me that was the most ‘racing incident’ of racing incidents you could wish to see.

    The driver in Hamilton’s position is seemingly always allowed to run the other car out of room, not something I personally agree with but it’s consistently allowed by the stewards and all the drivers do it, especially Verstappen. In running Max out of space Lewis must know he is pushing him onto the big sausage kerb. That kerb is simply too tall to just cut across, it keeps Max track-side and having not left enough room for Max between himself and the kerb, contact between the pair was inevitable.

    This is a completely inevitable consequence of allowing the defending driver to run the other out of room. How the stewards can penalise the attacking driver for the resulting contact from being forced into a kerb that you can only bounce-off rather than run-over is beyond my comprehension.

    1. Amazing that the consensus is wrong and that you are right. Lucky you.

  54. In many ways the incident reminded me of another one involving Hamilton, his collision with Maldonado at Valencia 2012. In both cases Hamilton had a car partly alongside on his outside, with the other car having the inside line for the next bend. Rather than leaving room, Hamilton chose to take a largely normal line into the second part of the corner, apparently expecting the other car to disappear. In both cases the result was that he was out of the race, having been on for a podium finish.

    Maldonado got the blame for that one, too, although I’ve never known why.

    1. It’s because Lewis does not drive side-by-side thru corners. He just assumes whoever is next to him will back-off. You’re right, this is a lot like the Maldonado incident, which I remember leaving such a bad taste in my mouth that I could never really get on Team Lewis.

      Many many years of him in front, with no real rivals (besides Nico), his flawless driving kinda got me on board with the whole GOAT thing. By last season I was believing the hype. Now, with rivals to fight again, I’m again seeing the entitled, whinging brat of old.

      1. “It’s because Lewis does not drive side-by-side thru corners.”

        Oh really, you might wanna watch Hamilton v Raikkonen at the very same circuit a few years back.

        1. Ask yourself if Kimi would have given Max a car’s width around T2.

          I watched the replay again just to see if I’m crazy. LH may have been a tire’s width ahead at the entrance, but Max is carrying so much more speed than Lewis, who has just come out of the pit. By the first apex, Max is clearly alongside and Lewis knows it. If you freeze frame as they’re exiting the corner, you can see Hamilton pointing directly at the T2 apex with intent to squeeze Max off, who again, is right alongside him.

          1. Blaize Falconberger (@)
            12th September 2021, 21:21

            Kimi would have had the good sense to not be in that posiiton and not to lunge like Max did – he’s a wise head. Max has huge tallent but he’s still a hothead sonetimes.

          2. Yet all the data available to the stewards (which is.mich more than you have) suggests otherwise.

          3. The problem is, when your on the outside, being slightly behind, or even alongside is not good enough. Just like Hamilton in Silverstone Turn 6, or even Hamilton on Max in lap 1 at the 2nd chicane in Monza. If Turn 1 was a left hander and Max was where he was, then it would definitely warrant a pass, but its a right hander. When you’re passing someone on the outside, you need to have your car further ahead than he was, in order to dictate the corner. Max was only where he was at Turn 1 because he jumped off the brakes in order to attempt a ‘block-pass’, even if Hamiltons car is not there, Max is still having a hard time making Turn 2.

    2. Yes, that sprung to mind for me as well. I remember watching Lewis throw his steering wheel away thinking “Well, what did you expect?”.

      1. More fake news! Maldonado left the track after a failed overtake and torpedoed lewis when he dangerously re-entered the track. pastor got a 20 second penalty for unsafe re-entry so i don’t understand why you and Chasm
        are fixated on a revisionist view on the 2012 European GP painting Lewis as the guilty party . Lewis thrown his wheel because he had his race destroyed by a talentless paydriver who Hugo Chavez paid €30m a year for his williams seat.

        1. @ccpbioweapon I like your style :)

        2. What news? We are recalling our opinions from the time.

          And that’s Grand Prix winning talentless pay-driver by the way.

  55. I feel the penalty was justified. The corner was closing, Max had the chance to yield, but instead took the gamble of driving over a large sausage kerb that would very likely cause him to lose control of his car. Indeed he did lose control of his car and as a result caused the collision = predominantly at fault.

    Sometimes being uncompromising is justified and that’s part of what so many fans like about Max. Sometimes it can have dangerous consequences. We’re lucky that this incident didn’t happen a few years ago before the Halo.

  56. The stewards observed on CCTV footage that the driver of car 44 was driving an avoiding line, although his position caused car 33 to go onto the kerb. But further, the stewards observed that car 33 was not at all alongside car 44 until significantly into the entry into turn one. In the opinion of the stewards, this manoeuvre was attempted too late for the driver of car 33 to have ‘the right to racing room’.

    “While car 44 could have steered further from the kerb to avoid the incident, the stewards determined that his position was reasonable and therefore find that the driver of car 33 was predominantly to blame for the incident.

    Excellent excellent analysis of the incident, top job there
    BUT does the punishment to car 33 fit the crime? Absolutely not

    1. It does not fit the crime. Should be five grid spots.

      1. It doesn’t matter, the penalty means nothing – he’ll be taking a new engine anyway.

        1. Tactics like engine changes to nullify penalties should not be allowed.

  57. Hamilton did not leave a cars width on the straight, max got a penalty for that vs Bottas a few years ago. Stewarding, every day different options.

    1. You should re-watch the footage.

      Hamilton did actually leave more than a cars width on the outside, it was Verstappen who chose to go even wider in order to carry more momentum into Turn 1

      1. The point of the Bottas and Max collision few years back was that the green part wasn’t considered part of the track. Max now had to use it, Bottas didn’t and they collided. Max got a penalty. Yeah weird rules annoyed at how inconsistent and subjective they get applied. Including the random values of penalties. Let em race would be simpler.

        1. “Max now had to use it,”

          No, that’s why i said you have to re-watch the footage, Max did not have to use the green run-off. There was a cars width between Hamilton and the white line, Verstappen chose to use the run-off so he could try to carry more speed into Turn 1

  58. This is the same Max Verstappen that was taken out by the same team twice.I don’t even like Max, but this penalty s absurd. When he finally wins I’ll be over the moon, he is clearly the best driver out there. Lewis torpedoes into him in the British GP, no penalty. Bottas destroyed his car. What did Max do today to waren’t that penalty?

    1. It’s basically the same incident as Silverstone. The driver behind wasn’t fully alongside and the driver in front took the racing line. That left the driver behind no space and they didn’t back out so contact was made.

      I’d call it a racing incident but I think in both cases, the driver behind thought “Leave me no space? Fine, I’ll punt you off then.”

  59. Most disturbing as an indication of Verstappen’s character was him walking past Hamilton (who was still seated unmoving in his car) without a glance in his direction.

    Verstappen’s car had been over Hamilton’s head with a back wheel still spinning leaving a damaged halo. But not a glance.

    Compare to Vettel. Or those racing Lauda at the time of his fiery accident.

    1. Don’t make things up, Hamilton was busy trying to reverse away.. In your style :he was trying to drive over Max, who was behind his car. What an awful character that Hamilton. See..

      1. @maxv exactly right

  60. Fair decision.

  61. This is going to be unpopular, but I absolutely do not agree that this was not predominantly car 33’s fault. The delta between Max and Lando going into turn one is steady, compared to Lewis who is accelerating out of the pitlane and still has negative delta to both of them. I mean, just watch the onboard and put your eyes on the Papaya ahead of you and think at what point does Max have to stop racing him, and start letting slow-merging traffic into his line?

    So. Max takes the outside, maybe late brakes a bit, but Lewis knows he’s there right alongside him. This is the moment that he always assumes his rival is just going to concede the place by backing out. Same as in Silverstone, which was an almost flat-out corner – how in the heck did he think he could pull a late apex pass on lap one at Copse? He just always assumes that the other guy will yield.

    Back to today. Had Lewis given Max room, Max would then have had to avoid t-boning the former coming out of turn 2, and there’s no guarantee he would have been able to do that. And if he had, Lewis almost certainly would have had a better exit and run down Biassono. But the point is that Lewis never lets the race get to the next corner.

    Don’t even get me started on the unequal treatment on penalties from the stewards. TonyF is precisely correct.

    I for one am planning on a Costco run to stock up on popcorn for next season tho. Lewis haaaaaaaates being beaten by his teammate more than anything in the entire world. Should be fun.

    1. I meant car 44, Lewis at fault obviously. Management regrets the error.

    2. Yes that’s what the stewards said too. Hamilton could have given more space (if you imagina that would have actually helped since no way Verstappen was going to make that corner), but then they rightly added that Hamilton shouldn’t have had too leave space since he was ahead and instead Verstappen should have yielded as he was not entitled to the racing line.

  62. Well, what da hell? (Says Verstappen fan)

    In any case these two are at eachother like two teen brothers, constantly banging wheels.

    It makes the races more fun? Would it be better if they were alongside one another and gave eachother space? Other drivers managed to do that just fine.

    Bottas, Perez did many great overtakes..

    Meanwhile, what we believe are superior racers crash whenever they get close.

    They are however fighting for the championship, in that regards a slight penalty for Verstappen is good for the show.

  63. Any word on the slow Hamilton pit stop…. had that been faster this collision would not have happened.
    We might have had a thrilling end, although I suspect Verstappen would have found some other opportunity to have a lunge.

    1. Mercedes pit crew has been horrendous for a few years now. Their average pit is probably around 3.0 seconds. To get that average you have a few sub 3 secs and a few plus 4s so this slow pit stop is within their normal range.

      1. So true @jimfromus. You’d think they would have addressed this by now. All that expense chasing tenths from the car and they don’t see to address the whole seconds lost at pit stops that are haemorrhaging them points!

  64. Wth was that nonsense in the ruling about being ahead by the braking zone for an overtake to be valid? Do they not remember pre-DRS? All the lauded overtakes by Ricky/Kobayashi et al?

  65. Wow finally we’re racing. With racing comes incidents. Sometimes Ham is stupid the next time Ham is stupid again. Moto gp style.

  66. I was so happy to see max maturing at the start of the year. i really started to appreciate him, and forget all the aggressive/dangerous driving. But, its coming back and the crash at T1 made me furious. With that said, and even though I wanted Max to be penalized, it is so sad to actually see it. A young man like himself with so much pressure racing his heart out, and it ended up like this. There is so much more profit in him being cautious there and surviving for the next corner. He pushes people out, and can’t yield himself. I really dont like to see max penalized, after tempers cooled. But, he probably deserved it. It was certainly a more aggressive move than lewis at silverstone, forgetting the dangerous outcomes of both.

  67. But further, the stewards observed that car 33 was not at all alongside car 44 until significantly into the entry into turn one. In the opinion of the stewards, this manoeuvre was attempted too late for the driver of car 33 to have ‘the right to racing room

    This is very tricky. Now suddenly, attempting a manoeuvre too late is a punishable offense. This is something Verstappen does quite often (e.g. Start of Spain 2021, His 1st attempt to overtake Leclerc in Austria 2019). And its not just Verstappen, even Ricciardo’s late braking overtakes are examples of ‘manoeuvres that start quite late’, Also look at Leclerc’s attempt to overtake Verstappen on lap 24 of Britain 2019. These are all examples of overtakes that started really late (usually on the inside of a corner) but did not result in any crash because either 1) the driver ahead avoided or 2) The move started so late that the exit from the corner was compromised and the overtake never succeeded, 3) there was space for the driver ahead on the outside – without any kerbs – which can be used to maintain momentum and track position.

    This can set a bad precedent and can increase the penalties being given to drivers trying to overtake on the inside.

    1. And BTW, once again, this is a penalty not for the action, but the consequence of the action. Had Lewis and Max continued without any pit-stop, I am sure this would have been called racing incident.

      1. Exactly, despite the stewards saying otherwise…
        If it resulted in a lucky wheel bang there would’ve been a “no further action”

        1. Which shows how political and part nonsensical stewarding has become.

      2. Well there needs to be an actual incident before they can investigate an incident yes. The point is that they don’t weigh the consequences like whether Hamilton could continue or not.

        They don’t dish out a harsher penalty because Verstappen eliminated Hamilton from the race as opposed to just tapping him on the wheels punting him off for a bit and both continue. The penalty is regardless of those kind of consequences

        If it resulted in a lucky wheel bang there would’ve been a “no further action”

        That is not true.

        What is sad though is that offences without an actual “incident” go unpunished. That’s why Verstappen does this dirty driving over and over. Ricciardo was ahead going into turn 1 for the sprint race. Verstappen just barged him off, but Ricciardo managed to evade Verstappen. Still Ricciard had the line and should have been left space -> 5s penalty for Verstappen. Same with Verstappen barging Hamilton off in turn 4 when Hamilton was fully alongside going into the corner.

        If the driver gets bullied of by a dirty driver then the dirty driver doesn’t get the penalty. Only if they let the incident happen does the penalty get handed out. That’s just daft. It’s like driving through a red light and claiming you did nothing wrong since you didn’t hit another car.

        We’d get much better racing if drivers were held to decent driving etiquette.

  68. I think it’s a bit harsh from the stewards. It’s one thing to not have earned the right to racing room—it’s another to be penalised for causing a collision.

    A driver going around the outside does so at their own risk. But when the inside car runs them wide and hip checks them, the outside driver is not penalised for causing a collision.

    I think Verstappen took a risk by going around the outside, left himself exposed under the rules, and at Hamilton’s mercy. Hamilton has no liability for what happens to Verstappen at that point. But I don’t think that Verstappen does anything wrong at turn 2. If he had pulled out of line after turn 1 and stuck his nose down the inside at turn 2, I could understand this sort of penalty. But he got an overlap at the entry to turn 1, gained on Hamilton all the way around the outside of that corner, and obtained a significant overlap by the time they reached turn 2. A racing incident, in my book.

    I also find it a bit strange that the controlling language is that “the manoeuvre was attempted too late”. Not that Verstappen was “not far enough alongside,” but that he made his manoeuvre “too late.”

    But this was an outbraking manoeuvre — the entire point is to brake late!

    I think scenarios like this should be judged on whether or not the car has a significant enough overlap by the turn-in point, and whether the overtaking driver is sufficiently in control of the car to make the corner without causing a collision. Though Verstappen does not have a significant overlap by the turn-in point of turn 1, he is in full control and not causing a collision, making full use of the space on the outside. And again, I think he clearly has enough of an inside overlap by the entry of turn 2 to have earned racing room.

    I think if the stewards think that you can be held liable for contact in turn 2 if you don’t have a significant overlap before turn 1, they should come out and say that.

    1. I think scenarios like this should be judged on whether or not the car has a significant enough overlap by the turn-in point, and whether the overtaking driver is sufficiently in control of the car to make the corner without causing a collision. Though Verstappen does not have a significant overlap by the turn-in point of turn 1, he is in full control and not causing a collision, making full use of the space on the outside. And again, I think he clearly has enough of an inside overlap by the entry of turn 2 to have earned racing room.

      @markzastrow The difficulty here is the fact that it’s a chicane, it’s the having to take account of the exit of one corner and the entry of another.

      Personally, I feel tat Max can see very well that the spec is closing up too much and that his choices are either bail out and cut the chicane or run over the sausage kerb and lose control of the car. He chose to lose control of the car, whilst alongside another car. He knew it would end in a collision. If you cause a collision when out of control and you could have avoided it, when you weren’t actually entitled to the room, then surely you have to accept a penalty

      1. You know, like have you ever driven a single seat race car in the heat of battle? I have, and it’s not like you calmly plan things, with what if’s. You are on the edge and have to react in an instant. This is not a video game……

  69. I’m here for all the comments from the Dutch!

  70. I think he deserved the penalty as Lewis deserved his in Silveratone. Hamilton was ahead so he could take the line (although if we’re applying the Austrian GP rules, Hamilton should be penalised….)

    Ultimately, I think Max knew it was do or die – take him out and keep the points lead or get overtaken and lose points. They’ll change the engine now in Russia so there’s in effect, no penalty anyway.

    1. Exactly Pete, very good analysis. Personally I’d just chalk it down to a racing incident but you can’t really complain with the punishment. Both here and Silverstone the driver behind knew they had to make a move there and then to get ahead or it was over.

  71. Hopefully the stewards apply this standard going forward. If a racer is ahead by half a car or more and commits to the corner, the driver behind must adjust or be predominantly at fault for the crash. Based on the stewards decision, the data must show that Max’s speed and line into the corner was never going to work regardless of where Lewis was.

  72. Why was Max spinning his rear wheel when his car was on top of Hamiltons?
    Did he not think that his right rear was near his head?
    Presumably the diff was why the right rear didn’t rotate.
    Was it not needlessly dangerous? Should the stewards have looked at that?

    1. Why was Hamilton trying to move his car when Verstappen was stepping out?
      Was it not needlessly dangerous? Should the stewards have looked at that?

      1. Yes.

  73. ‘squeezing’ him to the apex of turn two.
    So you were on the inside and not ahead… give up the position.

  74. I think they should be penelized to watch the last 5 laps of the motogp race today. That was racing on the limit with respect.

    1. I thoroughly enjoyed the MotoGP race. Great racing by both Bagnaia and Marquez.

  75. It’s weird to me that no comparisons are being made to the start of the race.

    Max took the racing line and Lewis bailed out and went over the curbs. It was a touch rude, imo, but I think a fine, hard racing move for two drivers competing for the WDC. Then later in the race, Lewis gives Max just as much room as Max had given him, ie. very little, and Max doesn’t bail out and go over the curbs and, instead, runs into Lewis.

    If Lewis “should’ve left Max room” for that incident, then Max should’ve left Lewis room on lap 1. If the lap 1 incident is tough but fine racing then Max should learn to bail out of a move and take the pain of going over the curbs like Lewis did.

    The penalty fits, imo.

    1. @treize131 Exactly! It’s mind boggling how Verstappen of all people can claim that he should have been given space.

      1. mind boggling

        Indeed :)

    2. @treize131 Arguably, Verstappen did take the pain of going over the kerbs—he had to retire his car because of it.

      If the takeaway from the start is, as you point out, that Verstappen was not punished for not leaving Hamilton room, then we would conclude that in the later incident, Hamilton should not be punished for not leaving Verstappen room. That I fully agree with. But it’s a leap to then say that Verstappen should be punished for it.

      1. You were getting on fine before you arrived at your conclusion.
        Hamilton left enough room for Max to bail out because Max was coming from behind and was never side by side unlike Hamilton was on lap 1. So Max had no claim for room and should have bailed out, but he chose to cause an accident.
        I’m surprised he wasn’t expecting Ricciardo to give him room even being several cars behind.

        1. It’s fine if that’s your opinion on the pit out incident, but my point was that none of that necessarily follows from the way the stewards treated lap 1 — unless you think Hamilton was obliged to bail out on lap 1, and should have been penalised if he did not. I do not think he was obliged to move out of Verstappen’s way on lap 1. He had a significant overlap on Verstappen and could have forced the issue.

          1. The thing is, the penalty was for causing a collision not forcing a driver off the track and that’s the original point I was making.

            If Max had bailed out in turn 1 like Lewis did on lap 1, then there wouldn’t have been a collision and both drivers would’ve been able to continue in the race. You have to go for gaps you think you see but you also have to recognize when it’s not going to work. I won’t try to fully understand the F1 Steward’s reasoning, many of us are confused by them on a regular basis, but in situations like this I imagine they’re trying to ensure as many drivers as possible stay in GPs by penalizing moves that are overly ambitious and more often than not remove drivers from races.

            Max is an incredible talent but sometimes he gets fixated on “getting the move done” as a principle thing and it costs him; he’s been better at it over the years but it still shows up now and then.

    3. @treize131 very well said.
      This is the main argument. Max just won’t give anyone space and he feels he is entitled to all the space. Even if the other driver has backed out twice to avoid collision with him in the same race, when the third time comes, Max will still not back off.
      Don’t know who are his racing mentors who taught him such crude racing etiquettes. My guess is his father and Marko.
      He always puts the other driver in a position to let me pass or be ready for a collision. This is not 80s and 90s anymore. The rules have matured and so are the drivers. Max is single handedly the most crude immature driver on the grid.

      1. Max gave plenty of space in Silverstone Hamilton just ran out of talent.

  76. People here forget that Max almost killed Lewis in that crash!!! Max punishment should be more severe.

    1. All teams agreed consequences should not be taken into account.
      If drivers need to think each time they do a manoeuvre of how it all can go wrong, then we will have no racing anymore.

      And besides: Hamilton could also have killed Hamilton in Silverstone. People have died from a 50g impact.

      1. Well said @ChrisVB – what you intended to write was “Hamilton could also have killed Verstappen in Silverstone.”

  77. What the stewards and most fans fail to realize is that Max never makes the wrong decision whilst racing. When Max is ahead of other drivers, he has a right to not leave any room as demonstrated earlier in this race and other racers. When Max is behind other drivers, he has a right to whichever line he wants, even if the line he chooses would never allow him to make the turn. People just don’t comprehend Max’s genius as he is that far ahead of all other drivers that have ever raced.

    1. I agree, a Moses rule should be made, part the sea, let max through.

  78. First off, brilliant drive by Ricciardo, who deserved to win regardless of all of the chaos.

    The Red Bull drivers are special. They believe that they are entitled to the racing line even if they are on the outside and not even alongside their opponent going into the corner. Look at what happened when Lewis tried to overtake Max on lap one on the outside of turn four. Max rightly turned in and took the normal racing line because it was his corner. Lewis had to back off and go off the track or else cause a big crash. This is what Max should have done in turn one (where he was never fully alongside on the OUTSIDE!).

  79. Ha! So many armchair stewards who know better than the actual stewards.

    Funny how they are all Verstappen groupies too.

  80. McLaren got a 1-2 on merit today, a great accomplishment after so many years. And all you guys talk about is a collision between Max and Lewis, that doesn’t even leave that much room for debate anyway. The papaya team deserves a lot more spotlight.

    1. @spafrancorchamps

      Well said and 100% agree

    2. Well merit would be beating Hamilton and Max in the race. So bit of luck on the 1-2. The win could have been on merit, the 1-2 needed a bit of luck

  81. Max gave Lewis the same treatment at the second chicane on L1 and Hamilton knew when to bail out of his optimistic move. Had HAM kept his foot stuck in we might have had a similar outcome.
    Role reversal and Max kept his foot into it- and Hamilton recioprocated. Difference is Max kept his foot in and attempted the move on the sausage kerb, hence the car going air borne.

    I’ve said it before- Max has made a career out of always relying on other drivers to back out. Hamilton is now firing back the same heat which is why they are crashing alot more.

  82. There is a reoccurring pattern developing between these two drivers. Max refuses to provide any space to Hammy and then later, same race or a later race, Hammy decides he is not going to be the only one giving space in their tangles and sticks to his guns which usually ends with one or both going off the road. If this pattern continues, I can see on or both of these drivers getting hurt this year. Max wants the “I don’t give way reputation” but it could well be him that ends up getting hurt. I think it is a sign that Max still needs to mature a bit and learn that “living to fight tomorrow” or at the next corner is not a sign of weakness but of a sign of mature race craft.

  83. I don’t really get how anyone can compare this to Silverstone.
    Silverstone was an extreme high speed incident and as such very dangerous. Lewis wasn’t even close to alongside, his front wheel was in line with Max’s rear wheel.
    This one it is slow speed corner, Max is alongside going into the corner (Late? Yes, Alongside? Yes) not really dangerous, just an unfortunate outcome.
    The only valid comparison in the two is that on both occasions, Lewis kept it as wide as possible.
    This incident and Silverstone are not comparable.
    I feel the 3 place penalty is too much for this one, given Lewis only got 10s for Silverstone.

    1. @malrg Irrelevant

  84. I would argue this is Hamilton’s fault. He had a choice between making this an accident or making this 2 cars going through turn 2 side by side (with himself probably getting a better exit and run into Curvee Grande). Unfortunately he choose the former. Although I will say Sausage Kerbs are the real villian in this whole incident.

    1. thank God Max had no choice to back off. Racing works like that, you stick in 1 cm of your car side by side then the car in front must let you through.

  85. I donated my opinion on another article. But long story short, bad call, imo. Racing incident.

    1. Yep, as was Silverstone. it is a dangerous, competitive sport and this will happen.

  86. Roth Man (@rdotquestionmark)
    13th September 2021, 0:08

    Regardless of fault, Lewis is using Max’s ego against him. Incredibly intelligent and showing experience.

    1. That’s why Lewis now has one less race to score points, really smart yeah.

      1. It’s worth it even if Lewis loses the championship. Max now knows Lewis is not going to give him an inch and his intimidation tactics will not work. In the long run (prob only 2 more years) that will pay off for Lewis.

        1. I think Max already knows this. Lewis has always raced hard.

  87. The entire field went side by side through that chicane on the first lap and nobody ended up on top of another car. That only works when everyone gives the car alongside you space. Can you imagine the carnage if you had drivers taking Lewis’ line on lap 1? Or after a safety car comes in?

    1. Every other driver took Lewis’ line the rest of the race except for Verstappen who decided to go over the Orange stuff.

  88. Stewards are as poor as var. Racing incident this . If I was pushed on who to blame I’d just ask the question – “why didn’t Lewis stay to the inside when exiting pits let max fly by on outside then do the undercut out of turn 2 and pass max into the next chicane”?

    1. Because Lewis was perfectly entitled to do everything he did. Max? Not so much (as proven by the stewards)
      Was maybe a little harsh to give this penalty but Max was at least 60/40 to blame. Plus, the stewards have much more data than any of us, so I’ll take their view over anyone on here, just as I did with the Silverstone incident.

    2. If Lewis had the grip to take turn further away from the apex and still make the next corner, then he had the grip to take the corner faster. He clearly didn’t. At the point Lewis turned in for the corner, Max had his wing and front wheel alongside, nothing more. He picked and committed to his line, and then Max dived into a gap that was always going to disappear.

      A car has a certain amount of grip – you can budget that grip between braking, turning and accelerating. The more you do one, the less you can do another.

  89. This will continue to happen. When Lewis doesn’t take to foot off, they crash, because Max never does it!
    He thinks it’s always the other guy that must give up. He has to be taught he’s not the king…

    1. Yes Lewis can’t be backing out every time. In turn 4, Lap 1 Lewis already backed out of it and ran over the kerbs avoiding collision with Max. This Max kid always wants the other driver to back out 100 out of 100 times whether he is overtaking or defending.
      He won’t leave you any space and push you clean out, but when he overtaking he wants the other to leave him space.
      Brawn or somebody very senior needs to talk to Max before a very big incident takes place.

      1. Blaize Falconberger (@)
        13th September 2021, 9:16

        I recall a tragic incident on the streets of London a few years ago. A cyclist killed a pedestrian by crashing into them having previously shouted ‘I’m coming through anyway so get out of my way’. He went down for manslaughter and an innocent person lost their life. The suggestion that Max should be allowed to mandate this approach to racing is clearly stupid.

  90. 257 comments? Think that’s close to the record, there’s probably been 300 something in a recent hamilton article.

    1. Let’s add one more, just padding the numbers

  91. If everyone here keeps on whining and blaming everyone else we will one day end up with an F1 where everyone will be penalized for everything and no one will take any risks.
    Don’t you see it? Just let the drivers race. The incident was exciting, dangerous, controversial and crazy. What most people used to enjoy about F1.
    Continue like this and we will end up bland procession . Do you really want that? I don’t…

  92. Wow a lot of comments for something that was obvious. Reminds me of the Micheal Schumacher days with all his apologists. Max is dirty and still has a lot of maturing to do, his flaws are even clearer in a championship fight.

    1. Yet he is still leading it after the two dirty attacks by merc.

    2. You’re better sticking to flipping burgers.

      1. Oh Balue! Have you not just had a pop at “HAM fans” for attacking posters?? Tut tut 🤏

        1. It’s Anon doing the personal attacks as you can see from his comment further down: “You’re better sticking to making sandwiches.” I’m just turning his argument against himself to see how he likes it in order that he stops the personal attacks.

          It’s like swatting flies in here ATM. They’re everywhere.

  93. Give me a break. He was coming out of the pits on cold tires. He was way too optimistic thinking he had the road all to himself. Max hit the curb, it bounced, they wrecked. Big deal. Of course the maFIA couldn’t leave it as a racing incident.
    And Lewser has wrecked MANY drivers and has received sweet nothing for penalties – not the least of which was the last huge one with Max. He’s a whiner and the FIA are in Mercs pocket. I’m SO HAPPY Max didn’t give him the time of day when he was trying to back out of the gravel trap. Bring on George and brace yourself for more crying.

    1. You’re better sticking to making sandwiches.

    2. Even SaraJ crawls out for this one! Not heard much from you since your man VET fell from grace. But you turn out to have an unwarranted pop at Lewis, yet again. Speaks volumes.

  94. Seems utterly bonkers to me, purely accidental that Verstappen’s car got launched, without that it would have been wheels bumping and nothing more.

    1. @maciek He drove straight into Hamilton after he clearly already lost the corner. That’s what he got the penalty for, not for ending on top of Hamilton’s car,

      1. I guess we just see different things happening in the footage @f1osaurus and in some way yeah he did get the penalty for ending up where he did, if not for the freak bump and hop it would have been banged wheels and no more I think.

        1. @maciek There was no way they would have ever made that corner. Verstappen would have ripped their wheels off if he hadn’t bumped over Hamilton.

  95. My first feelings about this crash were just laughter, but then i thought, hang on Verstappen is going to walk away with the lead of the championship after causing this crash. I’m glad there was a penalty put in place.

  96. I’m rooting for Verstapppen in this championship but the stewards are right.

  97. The worst part about the entire incident was that we had championship leaders racing wheel to wheel. Such activity needs to be eliminated, clearly.

  98. Not a severe enough penalty. 1 race ban would teach Max to seriously get a grip of his red mist moments.
    Yes they are just that. Easy enough, the trite excuses for his outrageous driving, when he was fresh into F1. Now? Inexcusable. End of.

    1. Yeah, they should handed that ban to Lewis too at Silverstone.

  99. I am asking myself one thing : “What is the use of blue flags at the pit lane exit ?

    1. Simply to warn the driver on the pit-lane exit that other drivers are approaching on the main straight.

  100. 333 comments and counting. This rivalry is good for this website :)

  101. The rules just have to change: forbid it to skeeze and or push someone off the track, always.

    Overtaking is already hard enough and I really don’t get it why this is allowed.

    Take the Indy car rules on this point. Even blocking and weaving is forbidden there.

    This only leads to defensive driving, while we all want to see attacking and overtaking.

    And on this incident: Max was aggressive and maybe late with his action, but this sausage kerb was really the bad guy. Without it, nothing would have happened. More an unfortunate turn of events. Max did not drive into Lewis, he just bounced of the curb. And from there everything went south.

    Racing incident all day long.

    But the FIA just had to make a statement. It’s time for a permanent team of Stewarts in stead of rotating each GP. More consistency is needed. This system is a joke.

    1. Blaize Falconberger (@)
      13th September 2021, 9:04

      I think your orange tinted spectacles have misted up.

    2. @hannesch Agreed, they should have penalized Verstappen for squeezing Ricciardo in turn 1 of the sprint race and then again for squeezing Hamilton in turn 4 of race lap 1.

  102. Blaize Falconberger (@)
    13th September 2021, 9:09

    Personally I find this all hilarious after the embarrassing drama RBR stirred up after Silverstone, their driver goes and does the same thing – and even makes it look like it ‘could’ have been deliberately reckless in his intent. Honestly, it’s like managing naughty kids and bossy parents in the classroom, with the FIA the level headed headteacher taking no crap whatsoever. Good for giggles.

  103. Just a pointer regarding the kerbs, Verstappen would have just cut the corner, gained an advantage. So, chances are Verstappen would have either had to have backed off, handed back the position or as we saw with the other Red Bull were they should have had Perez hand back a place after overtaking on track, been handed a time penalty.
    And on the fresher tyres -and based on the first phase of the race- I suspect Hamilton would have at the least stuck close enough that Verstappen would have never been able to pull away enough to nullify the time penalty, and thats assuming Hamilton didn’t make an overtake at that point anyway.

  104. I know the debate on who was in the wrong would go on and on (though I believe it was a racing incident), but one conclusion the FIA must come to after this incident, with regard to safety, is to remove the sausage kerbs. They are a death trap, and its disgusting to see why people at the helm don’t realize this. Hamilton was close to a serious or potentially fatal head injury, and it’s all thanks to those notorious sausage kerbs that lifted Verstappen’s Red Bull. Get rid of them!

  105. I felt obliged to contribute to this epic thread.

    What’s the record for the largest thread..?

    1. I’m not sure, would be good if someone who’s been an avid reader ever since f1 fanatic started could comment on this, but unless I missed anything I think this competes with the biggest threads, at least I never saw (but don’t always pay attention) a thread hitting 400.

    1. 386, mine already included! Guess we won’t make it to 400, damn.

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