Vettel’s five in a row as Alonso breaks points record

125 comments on “Vettel’s five in a row as Alonso breaks points record”

1. 

   Max Jacobson (@vettel1)
   14th October 2013, 10:54

   Webber out-qualified Vettel for the first time this year and Max Chilton also lapped quicker than Jules Bianchi in qualifying, meaning no driver has a perfect score against their team mate in qualifying this year.

   It’s a shame the former was lost likely due to his KERS failure, but it is amazing nonetheless that both maintained unwavering superiority for so long (even with multiple wet sessions)!
   1. 

      kcarrey (@kcarrey)
      14th October 2013, 11:06

      Vettel was still quick even without KERS.
   2. 

      MNM101 (@mnm101)
      14th October 2013, 11:19

      @vettel1 The BBC did a side-by-side lap comparison between Seb and Mark, it’s clear Seb had the upper hand in the 1st and 3rd sector and only lost out in the middle sector on the exits of the hairpin and Spoon where they use most of the KERS, I don’t think there is any doubt Seb would have continued the streak if he had KERS, but you can’t always win I guess
   3. 

      kpcart
      14th October 2013, 12:41

      everyone is banging on about vettels kers issue, which was apparently not there on his final qualifying lap, but lets not forget Webber has lost out a few times to Vettel because of KERS, where he was looking to beat him.
      1. 

         Max Jacobson (@vettel1)
         14th October 2013, 12:46

         It was there on his final lap – the team confirmed that.

         To be honest this season though Webber has rarely looked like beating Vettel.
         1. 

            Juzh (@juzh)
            14th October 2013, 12:58

            It wasn’t. Horner confirmed it after the race. Sky got it wrong, as they usually do.
            1. 

               Mike Dee (@mike-dee)
               14th October 2013, 13:26

               Indeed, in Ted’s post qualifying notebook, he clarifies that it was not available. @vettel1 @juzh
      2. 

         mnmracer (@mnmracer)
         14th October 2013, 12:50

         Webber only once had KERS issues during qualifying this year, and he qualified 11th to Vettel’s 2nd.
      3. 

         Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
         14th October 2013, 13:28

         @vettel1 @juzh

         Vettel’s KERS issue, which was apparently not there on his final qualifying lap

         After qualifying Horner said Vettel’s KERS did not work during either of Vettel’s laps in Q3:

         In the first session it failed, in Q1, it came back in Q2. And then in Q3 it failed immediately so both Sebastian’s laps in Q3 were without the KERS

         As reported here at the time: Vettel plays down impact of KERS failure

         You can also see in the qualifying team radio transcript that during Vettel’s second run in Q3 Red Bull tried a different way of getting the KERS to work but didn’t succeed:

         https://www.racefans.net/2013/10/12/2013-japanese-grand-prix-qualifying-team-radio-transcript/#1:01
      4. 

         David-A (@david-a)
         14th October 2013, 14:29

         Webber has lost out a few times to Vettel because of KERS, where he was looking to beat him.

         In your imagination.
   4. 

      Dan Brown (@danbrown180)
      14th October 2013, 14:05

      Well if the rumours about REd Bulls Kers / TC system are true, losing it would have an either bigger impact
2. 

   Ben
   14th October 2013, 11:01

   This is a great maths comparison.

   As a Senna Fan (and to be fair an increasingly enthusiastic Vettel van), I have to say that there is a third ratio that needs to be applied. That is the amount of time that a really great driver had to spend in an average car to get going. If Senna had drove the RB for most of his career, as Seb has, I think his points average may have been a bit higher. However, I know that that ratio is impossible to apply because it is so subjective.
   1. 

      matt90 (@matt90)
      14th October 2013, 12:58

      Reliability is obviously an important factor too.
      1. 

         safeeuropeanhome (@debaser91)
         14th October 2013, 16:36

         Indeed. I wonder what Clark’s point per finish would be, rather than points per race.
         1. 

            Guilherme (@guilherme)
            14th October 2013, 17:28

            @debaser91 Clark has 839 modern points, 72 starts, 23 retirements and 1 failure to start. This leaves his points per finish at a staggering 17.48!
            1. 

               Matt
               14th October 2013, 20:34

               839 points divided by 72 starts will not give you a 17.48 though :) More like 11.65.
            2. 

               seanc
               15th October 2013, 1:33

               He means 839 divided by 48 finished (=72-23-1) which equals 17.48
         2. 

            pH
            14th October 2013, 17:45

            Actually, the situation is not so clear cut. Chapman was notorious for making his cars less sturdy than usual in his pursuit of speed, a “win or bust” mentality. It is quite likely that if the cars we more robust, their performance would not be so dominant. Statistically, I’d say that some retirements are a random variable that visits all drivers more-or-less randomly and it makes sense to disregard such starts, but some retirements are due to cars being too-on-the-edge or the driver choosing to drive too hard, and these then are a natural payment for the successes. We obviously have no idea what proportion of retirements fall into which category.
3. 

   Jimmy Hearn (@alebelly74)
   14th October 2013, 11:16

   Those points are as relevant as Alonso being smart enough not to have have Gutierrez’s eyebrows. Looks good, but its all in vain.
4. 

   James (@jamesf1)
   14th October 2013, 11:19

   The modern points table is fascinating. Fangio’s average is immense!
   1. 

      Shrieker (@shrieker)
      15th October 2013, 3:00

      17.12 , beat that ! That’s just extraordinary…
5. 

   David not Coulthard (@)
   14th October 2013, 11:30

   What about a table of (Points in today’s system) : (races the drivers have competed).
   1. 

      Gwan
      14th October 2013, 12:00

      That’s in the last column? Unless you mean races they have completed?
      1. 

         David not Coulthard (@)
         14th October 2013, 12:55

         No, that’s not what I thought the last column is.

         But, I’m afraid you’re right. I just didn’t realise the fact that only the wording was a bit different as soon as I should. The numbers were the one I eneded up asking for.

         And, I must say, Fangio’s cell in the average column looks amazing.
         1. 

            pSynrg (@psynrg)
            14th October 2013, 13:09

            Four names have an average over 13pts.

            Fangio, Ascari, Farina and …. Vettel! :)

            Now naysayers bring on your Vettel’s just a lucky rubbish. To be named with good reason in the same sentence as those three luminaries of F1 history is nothing short of true greatness.

            For god’s sake folks, sit back and enjoy history in the making. Vettel is the real deal!
            1. 

               Hyoko
               15th October 2013, 1:18

               Make it 6. Fagioli made 16, and Wallard 16.5 modern points/race
6. 

   Max Jacobson (@vettel1)
   14th October 2013, 11:35

   I’m just going to repost this (what needs to be done to win the titles) from yesterday:

   Red Bull have won (well, Vettel has won) 9 races this season of a possible 19: since Ferrari (Alonso) have won only 2 races, and Mercedes only 3, neither can possibly win 9 races anymore. So Red Bull will win as long as they are 129 points ahead at the end of the Indian Grand Prix.

   Essentially, the minimum needed by Ferrari to stay in the hunt would be a 2-9 or a 4-6 (both 20 points), with Red Bull having a double non-score (highly unlikely considering their last was Italy 2012) or, with a 1-2, Red Bull would need to be no higher than a 3-6!

   Also, on the likelihood of a Ferrari 1-2 and Red Bull scoring a 3-6 or lower (in equivalant points): the last occasion that occurred was the 2010 German GP (coincidentally, exactly those finishing positions!) and the last occasion in which Ferrari outscored Red Bull by 20 points was the 2013 Chinese GP (Ferrari 1-6, 33 points vs RBR 4-DNF, 12 points).

   Probability therefore states that Red Bull should wrap up the constructor’s championship in India, and also for reference the last time Alonso out-scored Vettel by 16 points (he needs to have a 74 point or less gap to Vettel to be mathematically in it – 75 is not enough due to race victories) was the 2012 European GP, of course where Vettel retired from the lead to gift Alonso the win.
7. 

   andae23 (@andae23)
   14th October 2013, 11:41

   This is for the obvious reasons that finishing places today are valued much more highly than they used to be and there are far more races in the season. Today’s calendar is pushing 20 races per season and 101 points are distributed at each round. F1′s inaugural season in 1950 had just seven races with a total of 24 points available at each.

   It also has to be mentioned that only the best x number of results counted towards the world championship: so for instance, in 1952 two of Ascari’s victories didn’t count because he had already scored enough victories (and fastest laps) to reach the maximum amount of points that season. A minor detail, but worth mentioning imo.
   1. 

      MattDS (@mattds)
      14th October 2013, 13:17

      While those points didn’t count towards the WDC, I believe all points scored were added to the drivers’ total. And so these would be taken up into these stats.

      Now, one thing that’s still off, I think, is the number of points scoring places. Up until 11 years ago, we only had 6 points scoring positions. Meaning people back then finishing 7-10 did not score points while in current system they do score points.

      Ofcourse that would normally be only a small amount of points as these top drivers tend(ed) to finish up high anyway.
   2. 

      Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
      14th October 2013, 13:31

      @andae23 Just to be clear, all drivers’ scores are included in the table above, the various ‘dropped scores’ schemes were ignored.
      1. 

         andae23 (@andae23)
         14th October 2013, 13:36

         @keithcollantine Thanks for clearing that up.
8. 

   Lucas Wilson (@full-throttle-f1)
   14th October 2013, 11:50

   Has anyone noticed in the picture that Fernando Alonso is sitting on Felipe Massa? :-D
   1. 

      John H (@john-h)
      14th October 2013, 20:14

      He seems to be enjoying it. Oo-er missus etc…
   2. 

      verstappen (@verstappen)
      14th October 2013, 21:34

      He seems to enjoy it
      1. 

         verstappen (@verstappen)
         14th October 2013, 21:40

         @john-h I should’ve refreshed the page before posting…
9. 

   andae23 (@andae23)
   14th October 2013, 12:00

   This is what I noticed:

   – In qualifying, ten of the top eleven drivers qualified in the top eleven last year as well (Kamui Kobayashi’s place was taken by Nico Rosberg).

   – Sebastian Vettel has won five of six races in Asia this season so far. The last time he won less than three race in Asia was in 2008, when he scored his first win.

   – Every race Grosjean finished in the top five this year, he finished third.

   – For the first time since Lewis Hamilton at the Chinese GP, someone managed to finish second for two races in a row.

   – Esteban Gutierrez became the first rookie to score points this season – we had to wait until the fifteenth round for it. The last time the wait for rookies to score was that long was in 1998, when Esteban Tuero and Tora Takagi failed to score a single point that year.

   – But with that, Esteban Gutierrez loses a lot of records he set during the Spanish GP: the record for leading a race and setting fastest lap without ever scoring a point is once again unclaimed. The record for setting fastest lap without scoring a point returns to Brian Henton and (officially, but not actually) Masahiro Hasemi. The record for leading a race without ever scoring a point goes back to Markus Winkelhock.

   – Valtteri Bottas still hasn’t scored a point. The last driver who started more than two races for Williams and didn’t score a single point that year was Alessandro Zanardi in 1999. Sadly the last driver to do so before Zanardi was Ayrton Senna in 1994.

   – For the first time this season, neither Mercedes managed to finish in the top seven.

   – Max Chilton has still finished every race he started. This levels him with Lewis Hamilton, who also managed to finish his first fifteen Grands Prix. He is one race finish away from Tiago Monteiro’s record.

   – After Paul di Resta finished his streak of six consecutive points finishes, he hasn’t scored a point in the last seven races.
   1. 

      Max Jacobson (@vettel1)
      14th October 2013, 12:07

      Great stats as always, particularly the Max Chilton one! At least he’s consistent ;)

      I don’t quite understand this though, care to explain?

      For the first time since Lewis Hamilton at the Chinese GP, someone managed to finish second for two races in a row.
      1. 

         andae23 (@andae23)
         14th October 2013, 12:14

         @vettel1 It should have read ‘third’ instead of ‘second’, my bad. So I’m referring to Grosjean’s third places in Korea and Japan, and Hamilton’s third places in Malaysia and China.
         1. 

            Max Jacobson (@vettel1)
            14th October 2013, 12:25

            @andae23 that’s makes much more sense, thanks! :D
      2. 

         LSL1337
         14th October 2013, 12:14

         didn’t Alonso get 3 2nd Places behind Vettel? this year? spa-singapoure?
      3. 

         Julien (@jlracing)
         14th October 2013, 12:14

         That must be third I think. But anyway great stats as always andae
   2. 

      Robert (@gicu)
      14th October 2013, 12:13

      @andae23 I think it’s third for two races in a row rather than second. I was actually wondering, regarding the Di Resta stat, what’s the longest streak of consecutive DNF’s by a driver?
      1. 

         andae23 (@andae23)
         14th October 2013, 12:16

         @gicu RE 2nd and 3rd, see comment above. The record for consecutive retirements is held by Andrea de Crasheris Cesaris, who retired 22 times consecutively between 1986 and 1988.
         1. 

            GeeMac (@geemac)
            14th October 2013, 12:41

            Are you sure the time period is right @andae23? I’m sure de Crasheris got a third place at some stage in 1987.
            1. 

               andae23 (@andae23)
               14th October 2013, 12:58

               @geemac I’m very confused, but you’re right: it’s 18 consecutive retirements between 1987 and 1988.
            2. 

               GeeMac (@geemac)
               14th October 2013, 13:48

               No worries!
            3. 

               paulgilb (@paulgilb)
               14th October 2013, 22:44

               The record is 22 consecutive non-finishes regardless of classification. In the race in which he was classified 3rd he ran out of fuel towards the end, so did not take the flag.
            4. 

               Mike Dee (@mike-dee)
               15th October 2013, 11:45

               @paulgilb @andae23

               Wikipedia said he pushed his car over the line to take third at the 1987 Belgian GP.
   3. 

      Retired (@jeff1s)
      14th October 2013, 13:12

      This was the 300th podium for a French driver
      1. 

         andae23 (@andae23)
         14th October 2013, 13:39

         @jeff1s Haha, I forgot to include that – I had assumed Keith would pick up on that one :P
   4. 

      Nick (@npf1)
      14th October 2013, 14:27

      Great stuff as always @andae23!
   5. 

      reg (@reg)
      14th October 2013, 15:47

      If only we could have seen that 2007 European Grand Prix continue without the safety car/red flag! It was obvious the race couldn’t continue with the downpour, but I would loved to see the result of Winkelhock being madly chased down by the field as the track dried out. Instead he had to endure a restart after the rain and unfortunately retired not many laps later.

      The rain that created that Winkelhock’s record was also the catalyst for the arrival of Sebastian Vettel – Scott Speed’s retirement at turn 1 on the second lap and the subsequent blow up between him and Tost on pit lane afterwards sealed his exit from F1, and Vettel started the next race.
      1. 

         Red Andy (@red-andy)
         14th October 2013, 16:43

         @reg True, and it might have given Winkelhock the chance to go for an F1 record of his own – most laps led, as a percentage of laps raced. He led 6 of the 13 laps in his only race, which means he spent 46.15% of his F1 career in the lead. The only driver with a better ratio is Alberto Ascari, who led 928 of 1,691 racing laps, or 54.8%.
      2. 

         paulgilb (@paulgilb)
         14th October 2013, 22:57

         Vettel had already competed in the US GP that year (replacing Kubica after his accident in Canada).
   6. 

      ElBasque (@elbasque)
      14th October 2013, 18:21

      He’s done it again, nice work!
   7. 

      John H (@john-h)
      14th October 2013, 20:16

      @andae23 I’m beginning you believe you are some sort of machine that has passed the Turing Test. Thanks as always for your additions.
   8. 

      KaIIe (@kaiie)
      14th October 2013, 21:30

      Heikki Kovalainen also finished the first 16 races of his career in 2007, retiring only in the Brazilian GP.
      1. 

         andae23 (@andae23)
         14th October 2013, 21:46

         @kaiie You’re right, thanks.
10. 

    Corrado (@)
    14th October 2013, 12:10

    I’m a Ferrari/Alonso fan, but this record is like a joke ! I mean, Alonso being no.1. For the calculation of this statistic in particular, must be used ONLY 1 points system, like Keith did with the MODERN POINTS column.
    1. 

       Strontium (@strontium)
       14th October 2013, 17:16

       Yes.

       However, it is interesting to note that had the new points system been in use for these years we would have had (forgive me if these are wrong) Alonso beating Hamilton in to second place by 3 points in 2007, Hamilton beating Massa by 2 points in 2008 (at least that would ease the pain a bit), and Button would have won the 2009 a few races earlier.

       It shows how a basic thing like this can affect the overall picture, when in reality the results stay the same.
       1. 

          donMSC
          14th October 2013, 19:53

          With the point system of the 90s Massa would have won the 2008 WC title.

          For finding this out I made this little tool:
          http://esportshistory.com/f1/
          1. 

             Mike Dee (@mike-dee)
             15th October 2013, 13:27

             nice work, @donMSC!

             Interestingly, since 1991, only in 2008 (Massa instead of Hamilton), 1999 (Irvine instead of Hakkinen), 1997 (Schumacher instead of Villeneuve) and 1994 (Hill instead of Schumacher) would the WDC champion have been a different one with at least one of the other two points systems.
    2. 

       John H (@john-h)
       14th October 2013, 20:22

       Tweeting it as some sort of achievement I find slightly twisted I must admit. It’s like going back in time and bragging about the speed of your Lada compared to someone on a horse. Sure its a quicker method of transport, but the sense of achievement must be hollow at best.
       1. 

          JerseyF1 (@jerseyf1)
          14th October 2013, 22:46

          I think if your Lada was faster than a horse that would have been an achievement worth boasting about :P
          1. 

             John H (@john-h)
             14th October 2013, 23:37

             $:)
       2. 

          S
          15th October 2013, 1:43

          Of course we all know that it doesn’t mean FA is the greatest in F1’s
          History, but surely it is “some sort of achievement”, and it sounds somewhat spiteful to deny it.
          I can almost certainly see Vettel topping the record somewhere in the future, maybe Hamilton, but I’d bet nobody else in the present grid will do it (unless a few years from now a new system with a lot more points is introduced).
          1. 

             Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
             15th October 2013, 7:48

             It is “some sort of achievement” though what it tells us I really don’t know. After all we’re talking about a system that values a win by Fernando Alonso today more than three times as high as one by Juan Manuel Fangio when he was winning. What kind of meaning can we take from something so grossly distorted?

             I don’t think there’s anything “spiteful” about pointing out the huge limitation in this data. I was dismayed so many commentators picked up on it after the race without bothering to qualify it. There certainly seemed to be no shortage of people on Twitter ready to point out the obvious oversight.
             1. 

                S
                15th October 2013, 13:32

                Nobody denies the limitation of the data. Fangio not only got less than 1/3 of the present points per win, he also raced less than hallf races/year. That notwithstanding, Fangio got his “most points in F1 history” records, back then he had nobody with over 1500 points to overcome.

                The list of the most points holders begins with Farina and Fangio, then i get lost in the middle, but it ends with Prost, Schumacher and Alonso. All of them great drivers, you don’t expect to Button or Barrichello in that list, even though they are by no means bad.

                I am the first to acknoweledge the limitations of the list. What I find “spiteful” is denying that having that record is no achievement whatsoever, nothing to celebrate or to be proud of. Like Luca Badoer or Sakon Yamamoto could have been in that list. Nobody got that record in a lottery, and Alonso is in very good company.
11. 

    Alexander (@)
    14th October 2013, 12:33

    This is the first time the pole sitter was beaten to the first corner in Suzuka since 2000 when Häkkinen beat Schumacher to it…

    Not quite sure about it, but pretty sure.
    1. 

       Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
       14th October 2013, 13:32

       @alexanderfin Yes that’s right (as mentioned in the pre-race analysis). Hell of a start by Grosjean!
    2. 

       Mike Dee (@mike-dee)
       14th October 2013, 13:33

       @alexanderfin Indeed, and amazingly, this time it was the driver that was fourth on the grid (i.e. on the worse side and on the second row) who was first into turn 1.
       1. 

          David not Coulthard (@)
          14th October 2013, 14:49

          Though that’s mostly because the Tyrrell that started 3rd clipped a Jaguar….. :)
          1. 

             Mike Dee (@mike-dee)
             15th October 2013, 20:41

             @davidnotcoulthard

             Indeed, and it felt like the Benetton re-activated the hidden launch control setting!
    3. 

       Alexander (@)
       14th October 2013, 14:17

       Btw check out Häkkinens start in the 1999 Suzuka GP, that’s one hell of a start!
12. 

    kpcart
    14th October 2013, 13:03

    The modern points table is great, except for one thing, in the old days, drivers wouldn’t have a car capable of finishing so high every race like now, there were more car failures, and drivers didn’t get 6-8 years in a row in a car capable of winning every year, like Vettel, Schumacher and Hamilton have had.
    1. 

       MattDS (@mattds)
       14th October 2013, 13:27

       “and drivers didn’t get 6-8 years in a row in a car capable of winning every year”

       Winning WDC or winning races?
       Because Clark, Senna, Prost, Piquet, Fangio all had race-winning cars for quite some years (spanning most of their careers).
    2. 

       Nick (@npf1)
       14th October 2013, 14:29

       Even drivers of Schumacher’s generation suffered far more DNFs than drivers do these days. But that’s not something you could ever reflect in a points table, much like you can’t calculate what Schumacher’s stats would look like had he not broken his leg, Prost had not been fired by Ferrari, etc.
       1. 

          Robbie
          14th October 2013, 20:56

          Not sure about that. MS enjoyed incredible reliability. To me the more relevant questions would be what of his being removed from his second place standings in 97 but getting to keep his wins and points. Hitting DH in 94 for the WDC…using a car that was repeatedly cited for illegalities…His ‘win’ at Austria 02? In general, having a contracted subservient to not compete against him?
          1. 

             cjpdk (@cjpdk)
             18th October 2013, 19:24

             Please do not turn this meaningful debate about points comparisons into a tirade against Schumacher
    3. 

       pSynrg (@psynrg)
       14th October 2013, 14:51

       So how to explain 3 of the 4 top average points scorers are from the ‘old days’?
    4. 

       JerseyF1 (@jerseyf1)
       14th October 2013, 22:53

       The reliability issue has been mentioned by a few people, but whilst your own reliability problems might lose you a few points, the reliability problems suffered by your competitors in other events is to your benefit. Overall you might be down slightly if you tend to be at the front of the field but it’s not as simple as looking at your own lost points. Reliability as an issue overall shouldn’t skew averages too much to make Keith’s analysis irrelevant since the same number of points are distributed to more-or-less the same number of drivers in total.
13. 

    Jelle van der Meer (@)
    14th October 2013, 13:20

    With yesterday’s podium Vettel has been on the podium exactly 50% of the races he entered.

    Amazing is that even including MSC comeback years (only 1 podium in 58 races) he still was on the podium 50.32% of race entries (50.65% races started). Excluding comeback years the % are 61.60% race entries (62.10% races started).

    Still nowhere close to Fangio with 68.60%, no surprise that his points per race are by far the highest.

    Another interesting fact is that Vettel has the 4th highest points per race (adjusted to modern points) and that the top 3 all raced in 1950.
14. 

    Michael Brown (@)
    14th October 2013, 13:34

    For the first time in his F1 career, Grosjean finished third without Raikkonen finishing second. All of his third places have featured Vettel as the winner, except for Hungary 2012 (Hamilton).
15. 

    LSL1337
    14th October 2013, 13:42

    Vettel has the same amount of points as Ferrari (WDC #2), so Vettel would be second in the WCC.
    1. 

       Jelle van der Meer (@)
       14th October 2013, 13:50

       Actually Vettel would be 1st and Red Bull would have much less points without Vettel.

       In other words, Red Bull does not need a 2nd driver, although without Webber Ferrari, Lotus etc would all have had more points.
    2. 

       safeeuropeanhome (@debaser91)
       14th October 2013, 16:39

       Vettel would be first on race wins surely?
    3. 

       Max Jacobson (@vettel1)
       14th October 2013, 19:19

       I’ve seen it said many time that he’d be second, so I’m going to impose a rule that the team he drives for does not count (for obvious reasons: he contributes to their points after all!).
16. 

    Bleu (@bleu)
    14th October 2013, 14:02

    It was only Vettel’s second victory where he led less than half of the laps. The previous one was Malaysia 2013, which remains his worst percentage of race laps led (37,5%) while now he led 41,5% of laps.

    Top 3 wins and other current 20-win drivers:
    Schumacher 19/91
    Prost 19/51
    Senna 7/41
    Vettel 2/35
    Alonso 13/32
    Hamilton 3/22
    Räikkönen 8/20

    Of course, leading only few laps doesn’t mean it was bad performance. Using Kimi as an example, his smallest percentage of lead laps in the race he won was Japan 2005, undoubtedly one of his best victories.
17. 

    OmarR-Pepper (@)
    14th October 2013, 14:12

    Just wondering @andae23 @keithcollantine , are “old paces with no points” included? Let me explain. If Fangio (to mention as an example) was 7th in a race (and got no points for that, regarding the points system back then ), do you give him the 3 points (he didn’t get) in the chart? Because nowadaysn Gutierrez can get 3 points with that, but Fangio couldn’t.
    1. 

       OmarR-Pepper (@)
       14th October 2013, 14:13

       old places, not paces (keyboard failed again)
    2. 

       andae23 (@andae23)
       14th October 2013, 17:20

       @omarr-pepper Not entirely sure, but I guess so (that’s why it says ‘modern points’)
18. 

    F1Rollout (@f1rollout)
    14th October 2013, 14:12

    Didn’t Schumacher compete with Alonso in 2010 – 2012? Then how come this is meaningless. From 2007-2009, Schumacher did not compete but then the points system was not so different than the one used in Schumacher era. Also Schumacher has been racing since 1991 whereas Alonso only joined in 2001. The record is not as meaningless as it has been depicted on the blog. Yes we cant conclude that Alonso is a better driver based on this stat, but calling it meaningless is not correct.
    1. 

       Nick (@npf1)
       14th October 2013, 14:34

       Schumacher also competed against Senna and Prost, both of whom got only 9 points instead of 10 for a victory. Schumacher finishing second in a race in 2006 got him 1 point less than Prost winning a race in 1986, but 2 points more than Schumacher finishing 2nd in a race before 2003. The point tables have changed so much, it is a very uneven comparison by any standard. Heck, I bet some people will use the ‘Alonso started in 2001, so he did a lot of races with old points’ as an argument in favor of him once Vettel surpasses his points total. (Which is likely to happen due to him probably having a longer career than Alonso, even if Alonso beats him for the remainder of his career.)
    2. 

       David-A (@david-a)
       14th October 2013, 14:39

       @f1rollout – It is pretty meaningless because Schumacher’s vast majority of points were under the 10 points for a win system. Just look at the points when converted: 2414 vs. 3890. Look at the system now: Massa has 90 points this year and scored 144 in 2010, the same tallies Senna and Schumaacher won the 1988 and 2002 championships with respectively.
       1. 

          Erivaldo moreira (@erivaldonin)
          14th October 2013, 19:59

          I think the FIA should standardize the ranking points to the current system.
          I think it would be fair and end the doubts.
19. 

    Chris (@tophercheese21)
    14th October 2013, 14:31

    Personally I feel that the best indicator of talent is the Win percentage.
    1. 

       Nick (@npf1)
       14th October 2013, 14:37

       I think it all comes down to subjectivity. I mean, Hakkinen dominated the 2001 Spanish Grand Prix, but it didn’t add to his win percentage, as his engine failed on the final lap. That doesn’t make him 0.6% less talented.

       It is a good indication, but I think drivers like Jean Alesi or Stefan Bellof were a lot more talented than their win percentage.
       1. 

          ferrox glideh (@ferrox-glideh)
          15th October 2013, 3:27

          Good point about subjectivity. Gilles was no Vettel, but who was more exciting? At the top of the sport, the statistics that one chooses to analyze become a subjective tool. Of course, winning is the name of the game, but give me a brilliant display of panache any day. That being said, these F1archives statistics articles and commentaries are the highlight of my race weekend. Well done everybody!
          1. 

             Robbie
             15th October 2013, 5:51

             Vettel would be trounced by Gilles.
             1. 

                RAMBOII
                16th October 2013, 11:20

                Based on what? The fact that Villeneuve was already beaten by some of his own teammates, let alone fight for the championship?

                Villeneuve was a great driver, but by no means the greatest in history.
             2. 

                Robbie
                16th October 2013, 19:56

                What could anyone base such a thing on other than pure conjecture, and it is my opinion that Gilles Villeneuve was a monster driver and would have done incredible things in F1 had his career not been cut short. I think he did awe-inspiring things with much less equipment and at a much more dangerous time in F1 where bravery and nerve was much more necessary than it is for SV et al today.
20. 

    Webbo (@webbo82)
    14th October 2013, 14:37

    @keithcollantine thanks very much – that’s a stunning table. Tremendous job, I could stare at it for hours.
21. 

    OmarR-Pepper (@)
    14th October 2013, 15:56

    How many years will Alonso keep driving? That’s the question, as well as having the same great driving skills, because I really want to see him going well, not having 3 final years where he can hardly gets points, like Schumacher. I would prefer to see him just as much as Hakkinen, he retired when he still had good skills on him.
    1. 

       S
       15th October 2013, 1:10

       Such a polite way to say you want Fernando Alonso out ASAP
22. 

    f199player (@f199player)
    14th October 2013, 16:40

    With Lewis Hamilton’s retirement, Max Chilton is the only driver to finish every single race this season. Both the Mclarens have been classified in every race but Chilton is the only driver to finish every race.
    1. 

       Mike Dee (@mike-dee)
       15th October 2013, 13:35

       Who has done the most laps this season? Also Chilton? @f199player
       1. 

          f199player (@f199player)
          15th October 2013, 21:20

          @mike-dee Need to check but I think its Button has he pulled out very late in Malaysia and Chilton has been lapped in most of the races this season
23. 

    Mudzis
    14th October 2013, 18:41

    Great job for the table about points. Thank you very much!
    But there is one very important table to be made in the future!
    This kind of table about wins!
    Yeah, we know Schumacher has 91, but it is not a serious comparison when one driver gets 16-20 GPs per season, but the other just 7 GPs per season like in 1950.
    Comparison concerning wins similar to this one about points is the thing to be done the sooner the better!
24. 

    paulgilb (@paulgilb)
    14th October 2013, 22:51

    4th win, 5th podium for Vettel at Suzuka – the most successful track for him in both respects.

    Vettel has already scored more points in 2013 than he managed in 2012.

    First time Grosjean has finished 3rd without Raikkonen finishing 2nd.

    First non-mechanical retirements for a Marussia and a Mercedes in 2013. McLaren are now the only team without such a retirement.

    Massa has now finished in every position from 3rd to 10th at least once this year.

    Vettel would already have clinched the title under the pre-2003 scoring system (he would be 47 ahead with 40 remaining).

    100th consecutive race with at least one German driver in the points (last race without was France 2008).

    Both 1-2 finishes for Red Bull this year have come in a race where Vettel collided with another driver on the first lap (the other driver retiring partly as a result) and one driver in the field ignored team orders.

    And some from magnetimarelli.com:

    No front-row start for Hamilton in Suzuka (although he did have 2 poles in Fuji) – Buddh is the only other such current circuit.

    First time this year that Hulkenberg has managed back-to-back top 10 starts (interesting that Gutierrez beat him to it).

    Bottas’s best dry qualifying.

    Sutil’s worst start since Brazil 2010.

    The last time that Red Bull both locked out the front and scored a 1-2 was Korea 2012 (exactly a year ago to the week) – on both occasions Webber was on pole and Vettel won.

    Vettel & Webber have managed 14 1-2’s, equalling Prost & Senna at McLaren, but way behind M Schumacher & Barrichello at Ferrari (24).

    First time this year that Vettel lost a place at the start.

    First time Grosjean has led ‘on merit’ – all other lead laps were during pitstops.

    Suzuka has never been won from the second row.

    Alonso’s 70th consecutive race without a mechanical DNF.

    First time Hulkenberg has managed 4 consecutive points finishes.

    Button’s worst result at Suzuka.

    Perez is the first driver since Mark Blundell not to manage a podium finish in his first 15 starts for McLaren.
    1. 

       Mike Dee (@mike-dee)
       15th October 2013, 13:43

       Alonso’s 70th consecutive race without a mechanical DNF.

       His Ferrari really is bulletproof – the last mechanical DNF was in his third race with Ferrari!
       1. 

          Jelle van der Meer
          16th October 2013, 11:04

          And Alonso keeps talking about needing more luck or is opponents less luck.
25. 

    Jorge Lardone (@jorge-lardone)
    14th October 2013, 23:12

    “Alonso’s 70th consecutive race without a mechanical DNF.”
    I wonder if there is another driver with such a record like this!
    1. 

       Mike Dee (@mike-dee)
       15th October 2013, 13:49

       I think Vettel has a similar, but different record: He has done 66 consecutive races without retiring due to an accident (Last was with Webber in Turkey 2010).
26. 

    S
    15th October 2013, 1:03

    @keith, I miss Luigi Fagioli in the points/race table (not so much Wallard, who really wasn’t a F1 driver)

    Split points scores due to shared drives or reduced race distances have been counted as full points scores.

    Let’s apply that to Luigi Fagioli, he entered seven races, DNF’d once, and made 6 podiums: third once, second four times, plus 1 victory, shared with Fangio.

    By your reckoning Fagioli got 112 points in modern money, exactly 16 points / race

    Back then they gave half the points for shared drives, hence that would have been 99’5 points by my reckoning, or 14.21 points race.

    By both reckonings, he was better than Ascari, and second only to the great Fangio… Unless we consider Lee Wallard, who entered the 500 Miles twice when they counted for the F1 championship, won one and finished sixth in the other. That is 33 modern points, or 16.5 per race, better than Fagioli but still worse than Fangio.

    Anyway we look at it Fangio got the most modern points/race, but Wallard topped him in victories/race (1/2) and Fagioli in podiums/race (6/7).
    1. 

       Jelle van der Meer
       15th October 2013, 8:32

       Keith has already given the answer in his article: “This table compares the results of all the world champions, plus the top 25 points scorers who never won a title”

       In my opinion any driver with less than 10 races should be excluded from stats as not a fair representation.
27. 

    S
    15th October 2013, 13:45

    Fair enough, I agree to leave out the one-hit-wonders like Dorino Serafini (100% podiums, but only one race) and the 500-miles-only drivers. But I have a soft spot for Fagioli, he drove just 7 races in F1 only because he was already over 50 when it all started. His pre-F1 records are also top-notch. Too bad almost nobody remembers him, he was no Fangio but his consistence was second to none.
    1. 

       S
       15th October 2013, 13:45

       sorry, was @JellevanderMeer
28. 

    MarkM (@mpmark)
    15th October 2013, 13:50

    these points records are absolutely useless information due to the fact of the large point changes and number of races over the course of F1. They tell us nothing.

    ex: Alonso’s 2 world championships compared to Schumachers 7 and Alonso has more points… really pointless
29. 

    MarkM (@mpmark)
    15th October 2013, 14:14

    breaking the “all time” points record is not something I’d be bragging about…
30. 

    Sri Harsha (@harsha)
    15th October 2013, 14:19

    Another Stat i noticed
    Its been 62 Races a 1-2 Finish was achieved by any team other than Redbull. Germany 2010 was the Last race and it was achieved by Ferrari back in 2010.
31. 

    Joey-Poey (@joey-poey)
    15th October 2013, 15:12

    Out of curiosity, anyone know who holds the record for most laps led without having won a race? After Grosjean’s stat, I started wondering.
    1. 

       andae23 (@andae23)
       15th October 2013, 15:17

       @joey-poey Chris Amon, 183 laps.
       1. 

          Joey-Poey (@joey-poey)
          23rd October 2013, 15:28

          @andae23 delivers! :D
32. 

    Loup Garou (@loup-garou)
    20th October 2013, 9:06

    Vettel would be trounced by Gilles.

    On what evidence are you basing this arbitrary statement? Simply that GV was one of the drivers from the past? This feeling that some past s-&so would have trounced his/her present opposite number is common in any sport but is totally baseless. In fact, more often than not the converse is true because of improved levels of fitness etc. With F1, successful drivers in GV’s era often had cars that were ridiculously more powerful than the competition and with the rules more relaxed, they could try out alomst any innovation to win a race. Tyrell once even brought in 6-wheeled cars and got P1 & P2 because the conditions suited that set-up. Most top drivers demanded and usually got what they wanted, something that modern drivers are seldom capable of doing.
33. 

    Michael Brown (@)
    24th October 2013, 3:42

    The last time both Saubers finished in the points was the 2012 Italian Grand Prix (2nd and 9th)

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